Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#31 Post by Technic[Bot] »

There was also the theory that despite looking sequential to us. The battle at the beach, Reni v Clovis, R&R vs Kat and Sythe and Detritus vs Stony despite looking sequential to us are actually happening simultaneously.
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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#32 Post by Bellhead »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:55 am There was also the theory that despite looking sequential to us. The battle at the beach, Reni v Clovis, R&R vs Kat and Sythe and Detritus vs Stony despite looking sequential to us are actually happening simultaneously.
No, there's definitely an order to at least some of that. Reni was part of the beach fight, and went to fight Clovis after, during which time, Natani & co. found the dead twin on the ground. Beach Fight and Kat vs. Romulus may have been simultaneous, but the Sythe and Nibs escape and Reni vs. Clovis were definitely at a different time, probably a bit later.

But I do think it's reasonable to presume that Clovis broke in during the time Sythe was looking for Maren, which was happening during the Beach Fight, and that definitely happened after the party had started to wind down, at least a little.

Hey... You made a timeline of Twokinds events, right? Think you could line some of these up from, say, Maren entering the Oasis Room until now? That might help a bit, and it would give us a reference.
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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#33 Post by Tornir »

Bellhead wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:51 pm It's been theorized on here for a while that the magic being used, called upon, or what-have-you by Detritus, was also draining and siphoning magic from elsewhere in the mansion such as the magic defenses, repair processes and others. Going off of that thought process, it's reasonable to assume that the rumbling actually is legitimate structural damage caused by the various fights within the manor, if the wards and defenses and such are weakened due to the ritual.
You could take that a stage further:
Rose (speaking to Trace) wrote:In your eyes, there wasn’t a problem that couldn’t be solved with magic.
Consider a scenario where the manor is an architectural impossibility; it's features are beyond the capacity of the available construction techniques and materials, so everything* is held in place with magic... which is currently being damaged and drained.

*Or at least, the impressive bits.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#34 Post by stlsf4003 »

Tornir wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:33 am
Bellhead wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:51 pm It's been theorized on here for a while that the magic being used, called upon, or what-have-you by Detritus, was also draining and siphoning magic from elsewhere in the mansion such as the magic defenses, repair processes and others. Going off of that thought process, it's reasonable to assume that the rumbling actually is legitimate structural damage caused by the various fights within the manor, if the wards and defenses and such are weakened due to the ritual.
You could take that a stage further:
Rose (speaking to Trace) wrote:In your eyes, there wasn’t a problem that couldn’t be solved with magic.
Consider a scenario where the manor is an architectural impossibility; it's features are beyond the capacity of the available construction techniques and materials, so everything* is held in place with magic... which is currently being damaged and drained.

*Or at least, the impressive bits.
If that is indeed the case, Then a fireball-sized hole in the dungeon walls may be all it takes to send the whole house of cards crashing down on everyone.
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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#35 Post by Dreamfox »

1. The amulet is not being used to scry, the cat is. Clovis probably has some item to identify the magic of another item. I doubt he trusted Brahn just like that without having a way to check the crystal for shenanigans.

2. Protection from fire usually does not protect from the force of a blast. I think Reni is working around Clovis' fire protection.

3. I don't think Brahn knows that Rose is out, because even with Clovis' magic protections she would have made short work of him. While the plan of Clovis and his men getting killed is according to plan, I don't think they way they are taken out is. And if Clovis is taken alive...

4. It's interesting that no one mentioned the other reason for Brahn to get Clovis to attack the estate has been mentioned. Sure, to get rid of witnesses, but also to get Trace out of the Estate and back into play. However, the way everything is going, I don't think Brahn will like the result. Should Trace come out of this wanting to repair the damage his former self has done, he would have to find a way to stop the war and take out or at least neutralize the Templars. Maybe by taking them back the way they were before he took over. Trace's reaction of the Templar's endangering Flora and the child might wake some of his bad side.
We'll see.

Just musing a little.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#36 Post by Bellhead »

Dreamfox wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:23 pm snip

4. It's interesting that no one mentioned the other reason for Brahn to get Clovis to attack the estate has been mentioned. Sure, to get rid of witnesses, but also to get Trace out of the Estate and back into play. However, the way everything is going, I don't think Brahn will like the result. Should Trace come out of this wanting to repair the damage his former self has done, he would have to find a way to stop the war and take out or at least neutralize the Templars. Maybe by taking them back the way they were before he took over. Trace's reaction of the Templar's endangering Flora and the child might wake some of his bad side.
We'll see.

Just musing a little.
I have a fragment of a memory from WAAAY back when, that that was one of the possible end scenarios of the comic. Don't know where I heard it, though.

That said, I would think Brahn would have a decent idea of the person Trace has become since leaving, if he "foresaw" Trace getting involved in the attack. If we think back to the factions of the Templar, i.e. "return", "die" or "stay where you are", Brahn seems pretty firmly in the second category. He's taken to calling himself the New Grand Templar, so a Trace Comeback would inevitably bring things to a head, one way or another, and with the way Trace is now, and with the group he's traveling with, the Templar as he (and later Brahn) shaped and molded it would likely behead the lot of them if he showed his current colors.

We're talking about an order rivaling the military, with two main factions that each want keidran genocide, and suddenly one side's leader wants peace, and is marrying and having a child with the enemy? Even IF he returns, there's NO WAY that would go over well, unless he were able to prove he's the most powerful. Probably by fighting Brahn Basitin-Hierarchy-style in all likelihood, and he'd definitely lose in his current state. But if he regained his memories, he'd lose his whole reason for fighting in the first place, and everything would be lost. I just don't see a likely scenario for that at this point; at least not until a lot of time has passed, and he's learned how to fight again.
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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#37 Post by mhalpern »

Bellhead wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:21 am
Dreamfox wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 11:23 pm snip

4. It's interesting that no one mentioned the other reason for Brahn to get Clovis to attack the estate has been mentioned. Sure, to get rid of witnesses, but also to get Trace out of the Estate and back into play. However, the way everything is going, I don't think Brahn will like the result. Should Trace come out of this wanting to repair the damage his former self has done, he would have to find a way to stop the war and take out or at least neutralize the Templars. Maybe by taking them back the way they were before he took over. Trace's reaction of the Templar's endangering Flora and the child might wake some of his bad side.
We'll see.

Just musing a little.
I have a fragment of a memory from WAAAY back when, that that was one of the possible end scenarios of the comic. Don't know where I heard it, though.

That said, I would think Brahn would have a decent idea of the person Trace has become since leaving, if he "foresaw" Trace getting involved in the attack. If we think back to the factions of the Templar, i.e. "return", "die" or "stay where you are", Brahn seems pretty firmly in the second category. He's taken to calling himself the New Grand Templar, so a Trace Comeback would inevitably bring things to a head, one way or another, and with the way Trace is now, and with the group he's traveling with, the Templar as he (and later Brahn) shaped and molded it would likely behead the lot of them if he showed his current colors.

We're talking about an order rivaling the military, with two main factions that each want keidran genocide, and suddenly one side's leader wants peace, and is marrying and having a child with the enemy? Even IF he returns, there's NO WAY that would go over well, unless he were able to prove he's the most powerful. Probably by fighting Brahn Basitin-Hierarchy-style in all likelihood, and he'd definitely lose in his current state. But if he regained his memories, he'd lose his whole reason for fighting in the first place, and everything would be lost. I just don't see a likely scenario for that at this point; at least not until a lot of time has passed, and he's learned how to fight again.
The biggest problem Trace has with fighting is an almost instinctive use of black magic, which will kill the person he has become, more assuredly than regaining his memories. I think a more likely outcome, is Trace regaining his memories, but keeping his current personality, and using those memories to train Raine, whom could be at least as powerful as he was in his prime, without the same issues of corrupting magic.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#38 Post by Tornir »

stlsf4003 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:31 pm If that is indeed the case, Then a fireball-sized hole in the dungeon walls may be all it takes to send the whole house of cards crashing down on everyone.
Or at least render the structure dangerously unstable. It's been contended that Trace & Co just digging in behind the walls of an impregnable magical fortress would stifle plot development, so I'm wondering about scenarios that would take it out of the picture without requiring mass casualty causing destructive force.
mhalpern wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:26 am The biggest problem Trace has with fighting is an almost instinctive use of black magic, which will kill the person he has become, more assuredly than regaining his memories. I think a more likely outcome, is Trace regaining his memories, but keeping his current personality, and using those memories to train Raine, whom could be at least as powerful as he was in his prime, without the same issues of corrupting magic.
I've been wondering if he's actually scared to access his magic in case he loses control to Old Trace again. Apart from simple stuff like shielding (and throwing crates), we haven't seen anything powerful or complex from him.
It's pretty clear he used black magic to save Adira, but it's not so clear if he also used it to destroy the fireball volley.

As an aside about black magic, the non-canon AU image of Trace using it to save Laura on the Basitin island shows a distinct red-tinged black coloration to his arm; I wondered if anything could be inferred from this about the methods used to create Detritus?

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#39 Post by mhalpern »

Tornir wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:55 am
stlsf4003 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:31 pm If that is indeed the case, Then a fireball-sized hole in the dungeon walls may be all it takes to send the whole house of cards crashing down on everyone.
Or at least render the structure dangerously unstable. It's been contended that Trace & Co just digging in behind the walls of an impregnable magical fortress would stifle plot development, so I'm wondering about scenarios that would take it out of the picture without requiring mass casualty causing destructive force.
mhalpern wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:26 am The biggest problem Trace has with fighting is an almost instinctive use of black magic, which will kill the person he has become, more assuredly than regaining his memories. I think a more likely outcome, is Trace regaining his memories, but keeping his current personality, and using those memories to train Raine, whom could be at least as powerful as he was in his prime, without the same issues of corrupting magic.
I've been wondering if he's actually scared to access his magic in case he loses control to Old Trace again. Apart from simple stuff like shielding (and throwing crates), we haven't seen anything powerful or complex from him.
It's pretty clear he used black magic to save Adira, but it's not so clear if he also used it to destroy the fireball volley.

As an aside about black magic, the non-canon AU image of Trace using it to save Laura on the Basitin island shows a distinct red-tinged black coloration to his arm; I wondered if anything could be inferred from this about the methods used to create Detritus?
Well it was established early on that Trace started to heavily use dark magic (which is basically the life force of ones surroundings) in his attempts at Necromancy, Detritus said Old Trace considered it a monster, so possibly it was a manifested, and separated byproduct of his efforts, that he bent to his will. Trace probably is scared to use magic, we know from the Basitin arc he can be compelled to channel dark magic, where its implied thats something that takes most users active thought if they can use it at all, we also have seen where there is a mana tower, he can overdraw from it on a whim, so just keeping a stash of crystals on him wouldn't be enough. as for the defensive magic, thats forced, and as for crates, I suspect that those crates are summoned from the mansion's "inventory" so that's a form of prepared magic that may not be as taxing. He has been regaining a lot of his knowledge off screen, we see this when the ship was on fire and he told Natani instead of conjuring water, to remove the air, showing an understanding of the principles that can be used to maximize efficiency.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#40 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:35 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:55 am There was also the theory that despite looking sequential to us. The battle at the beach, Reni v Clovis, R&R vs Kat and Sythe and Detritus vs Stony despite looking sequential to us are actually happening simultaneously.
No, there's definitely an order to at least some of that. Reni was part of the beach fight, and went to fight Clovis after, during which time, Natani & co. found the dead twin on the ground. Beach Fight and Kat vs. Romulus may have been simultaneous, but the Sythe and Nibs escape and Reni vs. Clovis were definitely at a different time, probably a bit later.

But I do think it's reasonable to presume that Clovis broke in during the time Sythe was looking for Maren, which was happening during the Beach Fight, and that definitely happened after the party had started to wind down, at least a little.

Hey... You made a timeline of Twokinds events, right? Think you could line some of these up from, say, Maren entering the Oasis Room until now? That might help a bit, and it would give us a reference.
The granularity of my data is a month in the best case, we are talking minutes here can't do as is. Would need to manually work out the timeline.
Tornir wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:55 am
stlsf4003 wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:31 pm If that is indeed the case, Then a fireball-sized hole in the dungeon walls may be all it takes to send the whole house of cards crashing down on everyone.
Or at least render the structure dangerously unstable. It's been contended that Trace & Co just digging in behind the walls of an impregnable magical fortress would stifle plot development, so I'm wondering about scenarios that would take it out of the picture without requiring mass casualty causing destructive force.
mhalpern wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:26 am The biggest problem Trace has with fighting is an almost instinctive use of black magic, which will kill the person he has become, more assuredly than regaining his memories. I think a more likely outcome, is Trace regaining his memories, but keeping his current personality, and using those memories to train Raine, whom could be at least as powerful as he was in his prime, without the same issues of corrupting magic.
I've been wondering if he's actually scared to access his magic in case he loses control to Old Trace again. Apart from simple stuff like shielding (and throwing crates), we haven't seen anything powerful or complex from him.
It's pretty clear he used black magic to save Adira, but it's not so clear if he also used it to destroy the fireball volley.

As an aside about black magic, the non-canon AU image of Trace using it to save Laura on the Basitin island shows a distinct red-tinged black coloration to his arm; I wondered if anything could be inferred from this about the methods used to create Detritus?
He used black magic for that? I always assumed the black stuff was smoke from the burning fireballs all around him. Also there is no smoke on his "ominous dark smoke" on his shield now. Besides both times he lost control before it was because flora was in danger or were otherwise having a fallout. I am not sure using just run of the mill magic would revert him, suddenly believing Flora lied him about his child would
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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#41 Post by AmigaDragon »

I'm not sure what method Adira's save was but in my mind the self defense moments later detonated the fireballs by squeezing them all together. I think the black wisps around his hand might even have been a little of the black magic contamination dissipating due to the defense of Adira pushing it out.
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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#42 Post by Bellhead »

AmigaDragon wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 am I think the black wisps around his hand might even have been a little of the black magic contamination dissipating due to the defense of Adira pushing it out.
Oooh. That could be a thing. If black magic is more substantial than normal magic, and we believe it is, then it stands to reason that it would stay in the body after its used. Old Trace, and anyone else who would have used it, would probably have continued to use normal magic if they survived its effects, so the purging of the black magic remnants/residue/what-have-you would have been a normal process for them.

Trace, though, may or may not actually use magic on a regular basis. We think he's been reading and practicing off-camera, but it could also just be his muscle memory returning to him when he needs it. Either way, it's entirely possible that using magic correctly could purge his system, or it's possible he needed black magic to save Adira, and simply refused to let her die. Knowing him, it could be either.

Good catch, I hadn't thought of that.
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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#43 Post by Thomas Rot »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:31 am Regarding our favorite breakfast cereal villain
Absolutely inspired, Technic. Motion to refer to the Master Seer as some variant of "Bran" from now on.

Next time Tom shows the Mage berating him for being blindsided by events at the manor, the page title should be Brahn Flakes.

Maybe an action scene with him in it could be called Raisin' Brahn.
Technic[Bot] wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 12:55 am There was also the theory that despite looking sequential to us. The battle at the beach, Reni v Clovis, R&R vs Kat and Sythe and Detritus vs Stony despite looking sequential to us are actually happening simultaneously.
Bellhead wrote: Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:35 am No, there's definitely an order to at least some of that. Reni was part of the beach fight, and went to fight Clovis after, during which time, Natani & co. found the dead twin on the ground. Beach Fight and Kat vs. Romulus may have been simultaneous, but the Sythe and Nibs escape and Reni vs. Clovis were definitely at a different time, probably a bit later.

But I do think it's reasonable to presume that Clovis broke in during the time Sythe was looking for Maren, which was happening during the Beach Fight, and that definitely happened after the party had started to wind down, at least a little.

Hey... You made a timeline of Twokinds events, right? Think you could line some of these up from, say, Maren entering the Oasis Room until now? That might help a bit, and it would give us a reference.
I did kind of try lining things up here. A fuller (approximate) version might look something like this:
- Maren gets teleported. Detritus assumes control of the estate's functions; Trace and Flora get teleported. The Beach Party ends.

- Trace and Flora explore the corridor and the nursery. Initial encounter with golems in the Oasis Room. Sythe runs through the Manor looking for help.

- Encounter with Rose in the Rose Garden. Karen nearly falls off the ledge. Sythe is knocked out as Clovis breaks in.

- Trace sees Detritus. The Oasis Room battle continues; Red and Natani show signs of strain; Raine hits on the idea of going through the roof. Clovis heads down to the dungeons. Rom and Rem are instructed to head upstairs, and Remus finds Sythe.

- Detritus continues talking to Trace. Nibbly begins shanking Remus. Romulus encounters Kat. Reni busts through the roof. Clovis meets Brutus and Roan in the dungeons.

- Aftermath of the Oasis Room battle I: everyone regroups. After making sure everyone is OK, Reni goes to check out the grounds. Landen and Sealeen cameo. Detritus attacks Stoney. Remus falls off the ledge and Sythe blacks out. Kat screams for help and catches Zen's attention, after which Romulus also gets shanked.

- Aftermath of the Oasis Room battle II: the beach party heads out of the Oasis Room. Eric does some magic handwaving. The mind link is resumed for the first time since the battle begun. Nibbly begins guiding Sythe to the greenhouse. Trace reveals the baby's existence to Detritus. Reni arrives in the dungeons and sees Clovis.

- By now, Nat and company have found Remus' body. Sythe makes it to the greenhouse and figuratively drops a brick. Stoney breaks out the fire breath. Breakfast Cereal's spying happens at this point, immediately prior to the dungeon exploding. This is obviously the last time we see each group and any of these could fall at different times once we get more information.
Specific events can obviously be shuffled around, but the various Rumbling Noises all line up and under this scenario are caused by Reni crashing through the roof. Remus being an idiot comes at around the same time as Rom's initial meeting with Kat together with Clovis arriving in the dungeons based on their various paths after separating in the foyer.

The most difficult part about all this is pinning down Trace and Flora's part of the timeline, and that's really the only part here that still sticks out to me as not really fitting. I could easily be proven wrong about their placement when Tom returns to them and shows the greenhouse being blown up or something.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#44 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:52 pm
AmigaDragon wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:48 am I think the black wisps around his hand might even have been a little of the black magic contamination dissipating due to the defense of Adira pushing it out.
Oooh. That could be a thing. If black magic is more substantial than normal magic, and we believe it is, then it stands to reason that it would stay in the body after its used. Old Trace, and anyone else who would have used it, would probably have continued to use normal magic if they survived its effects, so the purging of the black magic remnants/residue/what-have-you would have been a normal process for them.

Trace, though, may or may not actually use magic on a regular basis. We think he's been reading and practicing off-camera, but it could also just be his muscle memory returning to him when he needs it. Either way, it's entirely possible that using magic correctly could purge his system, or it's possible he needed black magic to save Adira, and simply refused to let her die. Knowing him, it could be either.

Good catch, I hadn't thought of that.
This kinda makes sense. I mean Trace became a nice guy when his memories got sealed, but the slow remembrance of his past has not made him regress. We also know there is some black smoke monster inside of him which are is his repressed dark side or something. When he tried to bring Saria back he was grief stricken sure, but he did not go full genocidal until he tried necromancy. So maybe some of the dark magic remained in him pushin him harder into the dark. And that thing is manifested when he uses magic? I am not too sold on this as it gives Trace a clean way out, morally speakin: "It was not me but the dark monster that lives inside me!"
We also are not sure on the details on his conditions. Is this some total recall thing? Were evil Trace is still inside him just repressed? Or Is he still the same person, prior and before mind wipe, just acting without all his hate and grief? I hope we get some clarity on this issue by the end of this chapter, i am still hoping to see old trace come out and play!
Thomas Rot wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 4:56 pm
Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:31 am Regarding our favorite breakfast cereal villain
Absolutely inspired, Technic. Motion to refer to the Master Seer as some variant of "Bran" from now on.

Next time Tom shows the Mage berating him for being blindsided by events at the manor, the page title should be Brahn Flakes.

Maybe an action scene with him in it could be called Raisin' Brahn.
Thanks! I actually been trying to get that nickname going for a while, you are the first to acknowledge it.
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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#45 Post by Bellhead »

*steeples fingers*

I had thought of Trace's memory situation like a severe case of amnesia. Like, he'd still have those memories, and if they all surfaced at once, most (if not all) of his current self would be deleted like a dream. That seems rather unlikely now, with the occasions he's "discovered" his power but not his memories, and I'd like to think that he's recovered enough of his old memories that having the rest surge back wouldn't erase his entire personality...

Still, my going theory is that, if and when his memories are returned/uncovered, his love for Flora and his care for his friends would be enough to anchor him to his current self. He might become somebody completely different from his current self, but his feelings toward those he knows should still be there.. Almost as if he "snapped", and went after anyone he perceives a threat. That's my theory, anyway.
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