Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

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mhalpern
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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#16 Post by mhalpern »

sotanaht wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:57 am
tony1695 wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:38 am In the scrying orb we can see Reni breathing fire. Then, the explosion.
What exactly happened? Did Clovis manage to get a spell off, did the amulet overload? Was the explosion the intended method to dispose of Clovis? And exactly what purpose was there in sending Clovis in to die? Was he meant to go in and eliminate Trace first?

Or does the amulet have another purpose we simply haven't considered yet?
Has mind controlling the dragon been considered? Because that was more or less my first thought when he pulled it out.
probably not, no Brahn has wanted into the estate. now he has a way to do so.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#17 Post by Thomas Rot »

Well, that’s all very interesting. Brahn being a manipulative talking haystack is nothing new, but the way he phrased things…

How was Clovis even prodded into storming the manor? Brutus wasn’t supposed to be taken prisoner, much less be holed up in the estate of all places. According to Clovis during his conversation with Brahn the original plan simply called for an “unmasking” — but who would that have been? Roan? He had to have known whoever got “unmasked” would instantly become the biggest scapegoat this side of the continent, he obviously wouldn’t take that risk himself, hard to imagine he’d have let Brutus do it… so why just three Templar disguises for the false flag attack and why were two of those given to the only two people Clovis wouldn’t be entirely comfortable with throwing to the wolves? Or away from the wolves, I guess. You get the meaning here.

Forgive me for the rambling but it did lead to a rather chilling thought. Brutus got knocked unconscious and taken prisoner, contrary to the plan. That was Reni’s doing: she knocked him off the wall without Clovis knowing she was coming. Brahn didn’t tell him that, of course. Brutus showed up to be held in the Legacy dungeons rather than the ones in Edinmire, a curious choice at the best of times, let alone a time when the master of the house is technically supposed to also be in custody: again Reni’s doing. Clovis, having been lured up here to settle Brutus, is currently in what looks like the fight of his life and never closer to shuffling off this mortal coil as Brahn apparently plans for him to do sometime in the near future… fighting against Reni.

Every step of the way Clovis took up here has involved Reni and the actions she carried out. Might be time to look a little closer at the part she’s unknowingly played in all this. The possibility of manipulation or mental suggestion was raised a while back but it’s harder to ignore now, and it opens up some juicy new possibilities for the manipulation Brahn was referring to.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#18 Post by steelabjur »

JC the Supreme Tiger wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 5:33 am Have we seen Master Mage in-comic before? They look like they're wearing Neutral in the cast page.
Bellhead wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:54 am First canon physical appearance of the Master Mage, unless it's someone we know. Unlikely though, given their demeanor... And no, I don't think that's Mary Silverlock.

Continuing from the previous thread, If Chaos and/or Mage are manipulating Brahn, I think they just lost control of him.
Master Mage has appeared twice in the comic before now, his back appeared here, at the end of Chapter 7 (he's addressed as "Head Councilman"). And also he appeared in a lineup here in a flashback while Nora explained Trace's past to him.


Also Brahn has an obvious reason to want Clovis gone, as mhalpern pointed out: Clovis is the only one who can link him and the fake templar/wolf attack directly. Want a way for his plans to blow up in his face real quick? Let Clovis get captured and tell the Tiger envoy and Edenmire population at large that Brahn paid him to pull off the attack on them so they would go to war with the Wolves. I doubt Clovis was taken out here for the same reason Brahn thinks he was, he's too paranoid to have taken someone like Brahn at his word that the amulet would work as promised should he use it. Clovis is the type to have had a back up plan in case his new toy was rigged to explode, and he came on this attack decked out in magical rings (and likely other geegaws as well).
Thomas Rot wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:14 am Well, that’s all very interesting. Brahn being a manipulative talking haystack is nothing new, but the way he phrased things…

How was Clovis even prodded into storming the manor? Brutus wasn’t supposed to be taken prisoner, much less be holed up in the estate of all places. According to Clovis during his conversation with Brahn the original plan simply called for an “unmasking” — but who would that have been? Roan? He had to have known whoever got “unmasked” would instantly become the biggest scapegoat this side of the continent, he obviously wouldn’t take that risk himself, hard to imagine he’d have let Brutus do it… so why just three Templar disguises for the false flag attack and why were two of those given to the only two people Clovis wouldn’t be entirely comfortable with throwing to the wolves? Or away from the wolves, I guess. You get the meaning here.

Forgive me for the rambling but it did lead to a rather chilling thought. Brutus got knocked unconscious and taken prisoner, contrary to the plan. That was Reni’s doing: she knocked him off the roof without Clovis knowing she was coming. Brahn didn’t tell him that, of course. Brutus showed up to be held in the Legacy dungeons rather than the ones in Edinmire, a curious choice at the best of times, let alone a time when the master of the house is technically supposed to also be in custody: again Reni’s doing. Clovis, having been lured up here to settle Brutus, is currently in what looks like the fight of his life and never closer to shuffling off this mortal coil as Brahn apparently plans for him to do sometime in the near future… fighting against Reni.

Every step of the way Clovis took up here has involved Reni and the actions she carried out. Might be time to think a little closer about the part she’s unknowingly played in all this. The possibility of manipulation or mental suggestion was raised a while back but it’s harder to ignore now, and it opens up some juicy new possibilities for the manipulation Brahn was referring to.
Maybe Brahn manipulated Reni into coming to Edenmire in the first place because of his "gift", knowing the part she'd play in this but didn't reveal her presence to Clovis, instead feeding him another plan on how they'd be unmasked. Hell, Brahn could have been describing himself while describing Clovis ("so much ego, greed, paranoia").

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#19 Post by Rafe »

One major question:
If Clovis is gone (and I'm not 100% convinced he is) What happens to his Wolf Army?
Loyal to Clovis as they were (for lots of less than vittuous reasons) are they going to fragment and disband, or will some way be found to control them and continue the war?

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#20 Post by Tornir »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:31 am I think the blast is just Reni firing against Clovis. The shield deflecting her breath into the window.
I don't think Reni just did that. The physical force of a dragon blast appears to be more like a water cannon than a HE charge. After a direct hit, shielded Clovis is okay, and the wall (and seercat) still exist. (Also. the ceiling of the Oasis Room was ignited, but not destroyed by Reni's blast before she physically smashed through it.)

I'm wondering if Brahn can run "what if" queries with his precognition?
After viewing what will most likely happen with no interference, ask "What happens if I get the Fox mobster to stage a false flag operation against the Tigers meeting?" "What happens if I ensure the meeting/operation take place when Trace gets off the ship in Edinmere?" "What happens if this." "What happens if that."
That would give someone the illusion of omniscience, but if they don't think to ask the right questions, they're not going to see the ripples that things they didn't anticipate cause. This appears to be what the Mage was warning about, and it looks like he's just been proved right.
I assume Mage won't be shouting "PWND!!1! :mrgrin: " in the next page...
Rafe wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:24 am One major question:
If Clovis is gone (and I'm not 100% convinced he is) What happens to his Wolf Army?
Loyal to Clovis as they were (for lots of less than virtuous reasons) are they going to fragment and disband, or will some way be found to control them and continue the war?
I don't think Clovis has an army, just a crime guild composed of (mostly unwilling*) rogues.
There doesn't even appear to be a command hierarchy; no generals/captains/lieutenants, just "Prince" Clovis, his bodyguard, his enforcers, and the minions. If he's gone, you may get some ambitious opportunists trying to "seize the throne" but I doubt they'd have the power or support to succeed or to hold the guild together; Clovis doesn't seem like the type to allow someone capable of that to continue living. As for the minions, I'd say they'd take the view that their debts died with Clovis, and escape in the confusion.

The Wolf army was the force Sythe had been conscripted into that attacked the Taverndatter's village, and I don't think they know yet about Clovis's involvement in the Edinmere attack. If they do find out, guild membership will likely get you executed for treason.

* They owe him, and guild service is part of the payback.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#21 Post by mhalpern »

Thomas Rot wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:14 am

Every step of the way Clovis took up here has involved Reni and the actions she carried out. Might be time to look a little closer at the part she’s unknowingly played in all this. The possibility of manipulation or mental suggestion was raised a while back but it’s harder to ignore now, and it opens up some juicy new possibilities for the manipulation Brahn was referring to.
Reni is probably not wittingly or heavily involved, actually I wouldn't be surprised if Brahn didn't want her in the picture, as a Dragon, she's a telepath, and posses the greatest risk to his plans being exposed. I think he just manipulated Brutus into a position he'd get captured, and then the two additional idiots to try the front door.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#22 Post by mhalpern »

With how much of a reliance Seer has on his daughter's abilities, i would suspect his precognition is limited to things he knows about. to this end there are 3 potential wildcards. Raine learning at least basic control of her shapeshifting, Nibs, and Stoneward

Stoneward he may know about, but what's relevant about that is knowing who's the father of Flora's child. which is something that has only been discussed in Basitin territory, where Seer's daughter couldn't get one of her animal spies, on the ship, that Nora seduced her spy cat away from, the clearing where Team A and Team B reunited, which was very brief and impromptu, so even had they known about it, they probably couldn't get a spy critter there in time, and in the mansion, where the spy critters clearly can't access.

without Stoneward Trace loses to Detritus, if he makes it that far without Old Trace taking over without the baby. With Stoneward, the situation can change and Clovis may end up sufficiently surrounded to surrender.

Clovis is probably smart enough to check the amulet for traps, and with Seer's confidence in his abilities, it wouldn't need to be trapped, knowing he'd get himself killed is cleaner, and i do like the idea of Seer being strictly truthful. Clovis doesn't strike me as someone whom will stick around and fight if they can see they're beaten, so him getting killed in a fight depends on him thinking he can win until its too late, if he realizes he can't win, or escape, he's not going to risk his life any further.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#23 Post by Tornir »

mhalpern wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:27 pm \\\\
without Stoneward Trace loses to Detritus, if he makes it that far without Old Trace taking over without the baby. With Stoneward, the situation can change and Clovis may end up sufficiently surrounded to surrender.
\\\\
I don't think we can discount Rose just yet. In the same way she knew how to bypass her own restrictions, she may also know how to destroy, shut down, or at least neutralize Detritus, and as it seems she still has the ability to communicate in the greenhouse area, she could tell Trace how to do it.

Let's just hope Stoney doesn't end up down in the dungeon with Clovis because the building collapsed.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#24 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Thomas Rot wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:14 am Well, that’s all very interesting. Brahn being a manipulative talking haystack is nothing new, but the way he phrased things…

How was Clovis even prodded into storming the manor? Brutus wasn’t supposed to be taken prisoner, much less be holed up in the estate of all places. According to Clovis during his conversation with Brahn the original plan simply called for an “unmasking” — but who would that have been? Roan? He had to have known whoever got “unmasked” would instantly become the biggest scapegoat this side of the continent, he obviously wouldn’t take that risk himself, hard to imagine he’d have let Brutus do it… so why just three Templar disguises for the false flag attack and why were two of those given to the only two people Clovis wouldn’t be entirely comfortable with throwing to the wolves? Or away from the wolves, I guess. You get the meaning here.

Forgive me for the rambling but it did lead to a rather chilling thought. Brutus got knocked unconscious and taken prisoner, contrary to the plan. That was Reni’s doing: she knocked him off the wall without Clovis knowing she was coming. Brahn didn’t tell him that, of course. Brutus showed up to be held in the Legacy dungeons rather than the ones in Edinmire, a curious choice at the best of times, let alone a time when the master of the house is technically supposed to also be in custody: again Reni’s doing. Clovis, having been lured up here to settle Brutus, is currently in what looks like the fight of his life and never closer to shuffling off this mortal coil as Brahn apparently plans for him to do sometime in the near future… fighting against Reni.

Every step of the way Clovis took up here has involved Reni and the actions she carried out. Might be time to look a little closer at the part she’s unknowingly played in all this. The possibility of manipulation or mental suggestion was raised a while back but it’s harder to ignore now, and it opens up some juicy new possibilities for the manipulation Brahn was referring to.
How did Breakfast cereal convinced or prodded Clovis into attacking the manor? He didn't he was simply sure given his personality he would go tripping with power and attack the manor. How was he sure about that? He is master seer for a reason.

Although given mage comments i don't think he is much of a seer himself. As I hinted before i believe he is just very smart and uses his daughter power to have lots of spies in the world with enough information and some brain power plus some magic he could make other people think he is indeed capable of seeing the future. That would explain why he " is not infallible"

In this case there was no real reason for Clovis to attack the manor Brah omitted mentioning Reni in the hopes one of the wolves get captured to prompt him to rescue him. If such wolves had been Roan, for example, Clovis would be miles away enjoying his new toy but they got Brutus who he needed to personally kill because he actually cared for him.

What I am trying to say is that i think bran is no seer and he just has managed to set Clovis to kill himself by pure luck.
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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#25 Post by mhalpern »

Tornir wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 8:08 pm
mhalpern wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:27 pm \\\\
without Stoneward Trace loses to Detritus, if he makes it that far without Old Trace taking over without the baby. With Stoneward, the situation can change and Clovis may end up sufficiently surrounded to surrender.
\\\\
I don't think we can discount Rose just yet. In the same way she knew how to bypass her own restrictions, she may also know how to destroy, shut down, or at least neutralize Detritus, and as it seems she still has the ability to communicate in the greenhouse area, she could tell Trace how to do it.

Let's just hope Stoney doesn't end up down in the dungeon with Clovis because the building collapsed.
Maybe, but it'll probably take Rose time to do so, time she wouldn't have if Stoneward wasn't there to fulfill his original purpose.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#26 Post by aitaituo »

Tornir wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:21 pm
Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 12:31 am I think the blast is just Reni firing against Clovis. The shield deflecting her breath into the window.
I don't think Reni just did that. The physical force of a dragon blast appears to be more like a water cannon than a HE charge. After a direct hit, shielded Clovis is okay, and the wall (and seercat) still exist. (Also. the ceiling of the Oasis Room was ignited, but not destroyed by Reni's blast before she physically smashed through it.)
I also think Clovis caused the blast.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#27 Post by AmigaDragon »

Is it just my imagination or is Vehra looking less "soft in the head" than in previous appearances? Might her mind be recovering if her exposure to magic has been reduced/removed? Did she have any specific skills in basitin society beyond a simple servant role?
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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#28 Post by Bellhead »

AmigaDragon wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:13 pm Is it just my imagination or is Vehra looking less "soft in the head" than in previous appearances? Might her mind be recovering if her exposure to magic has been reduced/removed? Did she have any specific skills in basitin society beyond a simple servant role?
If memory serves, we never knew quite what her role was, before she became the Mage's slave, and she's been a servant ever since.

But also take into account that the last time we saw her was years ago, and the only other time was several years before that. It could just be Tom's style changing.
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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#29 Post by Naldru »

The people in this discussion seem to be assuming that the explosion in strip 1157 and the rumbling in strips 1145 and 1153 is caused by the fight between Clovis and Reni. This seems to be assuming that the seer is watching what the cat sees in his scrying stone, But isn't it also possible that the image in the scrying stone is coming from the amulet. Given the level of damage from destroying the collar in strip 1080, it also seems that destruction of the amulet would not cause major rumbling, especially since the castle is maintained by magic,

Perhaps the explosipns and rumbling in strips 1145, 1153, and 1157 are being caused by the fight between Deitritus and Stoneward. You must remember that Deitritus, Stoneward, Rose, and Trace are all entwined with the enchantments of the castle. If Deitritus usurped control of the castle from Rose, perhaps the attack by Stoneward interrupted Deitritus's connection with the castle, causing explosions, rumbling and structural damage. If control reverts to Rose, she might be able to repair the damage to the castle and launch attacks on Clovis, Deitriitus, and the Master Templars.

In strip 1080, Raine manages to shatter the collar that had been enchanted by Trace. This results in an explosion that knocks a person through the door, although there is no damage to the walls. Destruction of magic items does not seem powerful enough to cause major structural damage,

In strip 1143, Clovis discusses killing his best friend. In the next strip he is found by Princess Reni and his amulet protects him from her first blast, and Clovis also states that his amulet will give him the upper hand in the fight with Reni. In strip 1157, a rumbling noise is heard.

In strip 1154 and 1155 there is a fight between Deitritus and Stoneward. In strip 1156, Stoneward launched a powerful fireball against Deitritus.

Now finally, in strip 1157 the Seer is watching the fight between Clovis and Reni while the cat is surprised by a big explosion.

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Re: Comic for September 29, 2021: Seer Spies

#30 Post by Bellhead »

It's been theorized on here for a while that the magic being used, called upon, or what-have-you by Detritus, was also draining and siphoning magic from elsewhere in the mansion such as the magic defenses, repair processes and others. Going off of that thought process, it's reasonable to assume that the rumbling actually is legitimate structural damage caused by the various fights within the manor, if the wards and defenses and such are weakened due to the ritual.
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