Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#31 Post by Bellhead »

Warrl wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:36 am I submit the possibility that the riftwall was never actually deactivated.

Instead it was barred on the other side - or if that isn't possible, a second door was installed over it and that was barred.

Then a hallway was built leading to it, with a door at the far end. And no windows. A group of wolves could enter this hallway, close the door behind them, then unbar the rift and pass through - without ever letting light shine through from the wolven side. So they can go through freely (although they really should be QUIET) when it's early in the morning in Edinmire.
Adira mentioned other Riftwalls in other places.. If they all connected through that same one, there may have been a magic mechanism in place for selecting one, and if that's the case, it's quite possible that somebody at some point, probably when Adira noticed it went dark, de-selected Riftwall East from the other side.

That said, it's equally possible that they simply used some kind of visual magic to just darken it. I mean, if you look close enough in this page, you can see Amelia's portrait through it, so it's not completely blocked. We also haven't heard anything explicitly mentioning anyone trying to head west using this rift, so we never actually got confirmation that it's not working or can't be used. It's entirely possible that the people who would use it, simply don't; due to it "going dark". Unlikely, I know, but there's a chance.
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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#32 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:22 am
Warrl wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:36 am I submit the possibility that the riftwall was never actually deactivated.

Instead it was barred on the other side - or if that isn't possible, a second door was installed over it and that was barred.

Then a hallway was built leading to it, with a door at the far end. And no windows. A group of wolves could enter this hallway, close the door behind them, then unbar the rift and pass through - without ever letting light shine through from the wolven side. So they can go through freely (although they really should be QUIET) when it's early in the morning in Edinmire.
Adira mentioned other Riftwalls in other places.. If they all connected through that same one, there may have been a magic mechanism in place for selecting one, and if that's the case, it's quite possible that somebody at some point, probably when Adira noticed it went dark, de-selected Riftwall East from the other side.

That said, it's equally possible that they simply used some kind of visual magic to just darken it. I mean, if you look close enough in this page, you can see Amelia's portrait through it, so it's not completely blocked. We also haven't heard anything explicitly mentioning anyone trying to head west using this rift, so we never actually got confirmation that it's not working or can't be used. It's entirely possible that the people who would use it, simply don't; due to it "going dark". Unlikely, I know, but there's a chance.
My theory as of now:
Since the war started someone on Amelia ends seized the rift and closed it, who? not sure, maybe it was Clovis, though if that is the case i fear for Amelia, or maybe simple the local kiedran government closed it because they did not want a hole where a bunch of Templar could pop out at any moment. In any case the Riftwal may have been hijacked by Clovis and co and relinked to another more convenient Riftwal, hence it is "dark" and is being used for the incursion in Edinmire by his goons. I still suppose it will be used as a scape route by the party once the manor battle is over.
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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#33 Post by Tornir »

There's another possible post-battle escape scenario.
Trace's gate key.
Zen, Nat, Sythe, Raine, Rose(?), Evals(?) (and Brutus?) can't travel freely in Human (and now Tiger) territory.
If Trace and Flora (and the Basitins?) head for Lyn'Knoll, Reni can guard the "prisoners" remaining within the confines of the estate.
On arrival, Trace activates the gate key, and everyone bails out the back door to (hopefully) safety.

Currently, 2K canon renders gate keys virtually useless; if they can't go through themselves, the holder either has to use them only to send others through then walk back, or abandon the key on the other side. Opening the gate from a specific location to let others out seems the only (current) practical use for the thing, otherwise there seems no point in Rose giving it to Trace.

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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#34 Post by Bellhead »

Tornir wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:24 am Currently, 2K canon renders gate keys virtually useless; if they can't go through themselves, the holder either has to use them only to send others through then walk back, or abandon the key on the other side. Opening the gate from a specific location to let others out seems the only (current) practical use for the thing, otherwise there seems no point in Rose giving it to Trace.
I think it's more of an emergency-only disposable type item, whose primary function would be either escape, or a quick return home. Sorta like, "We're cornered, and we need to disappear! use the gate key!"

Reni's use of hers, as I see it, is more the exception than the rule. Otherwise, yeah, it seems rather impractical. Depending on how easy they are to make, anyway.
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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#35 Post by Tornir »

Bellhead wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:38 am I think it's more of an emergency-only disposable type item, whose primary function would be either escape, or a quick return home. Sorta like, "We're cornered, and we need to disappear! use the gate key!"

Reni's use of hers, as I see it, is more the exception than the rule. Otherwise, yeah, it seems rather impractical. Depending on how easy they are to make, anyway.
That's a good point. While we can't see from this angle, that chest Rose retrieved it from may be full of them.

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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#36 Post by Thomas Rot »

Tornir wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:40 pm The riftwall isn't deactivated, that would show the wood panelling of the wall, it's dark. I think what we're looking at from this side is some sort of magical one-way glass, and yes, the wolves are watching. Adira mentions shapes and whispering in it, so I guess it's not perfectly isolating?
Bellhead wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:22 am That said, it's equally possible that they simply used some kind of visual magic to just darken it. I mean, if you look close enough in this page, you can see Amelia's portrait through it, so it's not completely blocked. We also haven't heard anything explicitly mentioning anyone trying to head west using this rift, so we never actually got confirmation that it's not working or can't be used. It's entirely possible that the people who would use it, simply don't; due to it "going dark". Unlikely, I know, but there's a chance.
Well yeah, it is not broken or anything. I've been referring to "going dark" (Adira's words) as "deactivation", more or less from the POV of Adira and anyone else not in the know about what exactly is going on with the Riftwall: to Trace and Flora on the page the portal was introduced, for example, the portal was "dark" or "deactivated" or however you want to refer to it. Really ought to go back to my post and replace "deactivated" with "gone dark".

In more familiar terms it could be compared to a laptop, which can operate normally (like the portal did once upon a time), shut down (like if the portal was fully removed, as everyone else seems to mean by "deactivated"), or be put to sleep (what Adira seems to think the portal is currently, given how she treats the portal as still there but nonfunctional). Or this laptop could continue to operate but with the brightness all the way down, so that to the inattentive eye it appears to be "dark", which is more or less what the portal's state actually is and fits the reports of Adira seeing things moving inside and hearing whispering and whatnot. We can see Amelia's portrait; we don't know if anyone in-universe can, since you'd think she wouldn't have dismissed the portal's functionality so quickly if part of the hallway on the other side was visible, but since we can see it that is also consistent with the laptop analogy. Essentially Adira and everyone else not in the know have been kept in the dark (heh) about what the portal is really doing.
Tornir wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:40 pm The Edinmere attack was time constrained; it needed to catch the tiger delegation in the town, so it's possible Adira's necessary pursuit of Maeve was a convenient plot device to get her out of the way and stop her being removed from the storyline by the incoming wolves. Her arrest may be another one, if that last panel is indeed showing another opening...
Who would want/need to come/go through though? I'd assumed the internees were safely away yesterday, and they'd already taken Sam the Cow back through the rift.
Clovis is still in the dungeon fighting Reni (last we saw), so either something new is happening, or the opportunistic guild members are just coming in to nick the tavern's ale?
Plot devices could easily have an in-universe explanation too, to be fair. Quite a bit of time elapsed between Adira leaving the tavern and the attack itself if the wolves needed a buffer.

The portal's most recent activation was at minimum to get Sam through; it activated before Clovis broke into the manor after all. Whether it's still open after Sam and the boys pass through, whether Clovis was planning to use it himself… well, does that matter? The portal can stay open as long as it needs to now that Adira is out of the picture.

Though now that the point has been raised, was there enough of a window to get the interned wolves through Riftwall before Adira and Maeve got back? It's not immediately clear how well Warden Tallon's report of the Wolfpens breach lines up with what Brahn said to Clovis later on, timing-wise, plus getting that number of wolves through a smallish portal in a short period of time can't be easy.

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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#37 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Thomas Rot wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:53 pm
Tornir wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:40 pm The riftwall isn't deactivated, that would show the wood panelling of the wall, it's dark. I think what we're looking at from this side is some sort of magical one-way glass, and yes, the wolves are watching. Adira mentions shapes and whispering in it, so I guess it's not perfectly isolating?
Bellhead wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 1:22 am That said, it's equally possible that they simply used some kind of visual magic to just darken it. I mean, if you look close enough in this page, you can see Amelia's portrait through it, so it's not completely blocked. We also haven't heard anything explicitly mentioning anyone trying to head west using this rift, so we never actually got confirmation that it's not working or can't be used. It's entirely possible that the people who would use it, simply don't; due to it "going dark". Unlikely, I know, but there's a chance.
Well yeah, it is not broken or anything. I've been referring to "going dark" (Adira's words) as "deactivation", more or less from the POV of Adira and anyone else not in the know about what exactly is going on with the Riftwall: to Trace and Flora on the page the portal was introduced, for example, the portal was "dark" or "deactivated" or however you want to refer to it. Really ought to go back to my post and replace "deactivated" with "gone dark".

In more familiar terms it could be compared to a laptop, which can operate normally (like the portal did once upon a time), shut down (like if the portal was fully removed, as everyone else seems to mean by "deactivated"), or be put to sleep (what Adira seems to think the portal is currently, given how she treats the portal as still there but nonfunctional). Or this laptop could continue to operate but with the brightness all the way down, so that to the inattentive eye it appears to be "dark", which is more or less what the portal's state actually is and fits the reports of Adira seeing things moving inside and hearing whispering and whatnot. We can see Amelia's portrait; we don't know if anyone in-universe can, since you'd think she wouldn't have dismissed the portal's functionality so quickly if part of the hallway on the other side was visible, but since we can see it that is also consistent with the laptop analogy. Essentially Adira and everyone else not in the know have been kept in the dark (heh) about what the portal is really doing.
Tornir wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:40 pm The Edinmere attack was time constrained; it needed to catch the tiger delegation in the town, so it's possible Adira's necessary pursuit of Maeve was a convenient plot device to get her out of the way and stop her being removed from the storyline by the incoming wolves. Her arrest may be another one, if that last panel is indeed showing another opening...
Who would want/need to come/go through though? I'd assumed the internees were safely away yesterday, and they'd already taken Sam the Cow back through the rift.
Clovis is still in the dungeon fighting Reni (last we saw), so either something new is happening, or the opportunistic guild members are just coming in to nick the tavern's ale?
Plot devices could easily have an in-universe explanation too, to be fair. Quite a bit of time elapsed between Adira leaving the tavern and the attack itself if the wolves needed a buffer.

The portal's most recent activation was at minimum to get Sam through; it activated before Clovis broke into the manor after all. Whether it's still open after Sam and the boys pass through, whether Clovis was planning to use it himself… well, does that matter? The portal can stay open as long as it needs to now that Adira is out of the picture.

Though now that the point has been raised, was there enough of a window to get the interned wolves through Riftwall before Adira and Maeve got back? It's not immediately clear how well Warden Tallon's report of the Wolfpens breach lines up with what Brahn said to Clovis later on, timing-wise, plus getting that number of wolves through a smallish portal in a short period of time can't be easy.
Honestly i think they did not meant to "save" nor evacuate the Wolves, Clovis is working for Brahn at the moment not the Keidran kingdom. They wanted the wolves out to cause as much of a mess as possible to cause a formal war between the Tiger and the wolves and destroy any chance of alliance between keidran. If they make it out alive of Edinmire, they just do not care. And still seems like and important plot point wish we revisit what happend to the wolfpens once whatever necromancy ends at the manor.
Tornir wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:51 am
Bellhead wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:38 am I think it's more of an emergency-only disposable type item, whose primary function would be either escape, or a quick return home. Sorta like, "We're cornered, and we need to disappear! use the gate key!"

Reni's use of hers, as I see it, is more the exception than the rule. Otherwise, yeah, it seems rather impractical. Depending on how easy they are to make, anyway.
That's a good point. While we can't see from this angle, that chest Rose retrieved it from may be full of them.
When the gate key was introduced we considered that to be a bit Overpowered at first since what forbides you to use it to teleport enemy troops behind enemy lines? Then turned out that you cannot take the key with you severely limiting its usefulness. I personally think it got nerfed due our small discussion here about it. Anyhow i honestly believe it is just a bauble, something rich mages use to show off to their friends, they send a servant with the key and the guest then teleport to your manor, eventually they come back and your servant has to ride with the key back home
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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#38 Post by Tornir »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:22 pm Honestly i think they did not meant to "save" nor evacuate the Wolves, Clovis is working for Brahn at the moment not the Keidran kingdom. They wanted the wolves out to cause as much of a mess as possible to cause a formal war between the Tiger and the wolves and destroy any chance of alliance between keidran. If they make it out alive of Edinmire, they just do not care. And still seems like and important plot point wish we revisit what happend to the wolfpens once whatever necromancy ends at the manor.
The Big Reveal of the imposter templar was what was intended to start the wolf/tiger war, it's just that Brahn never bothered to pass the revised script (guest-starring Trace and Reni) to Clovis. The wolf pen liberation strikes me as something the real wolven military would seek to achieve, so it could have been done for added authenticity. It also had human forces running in confused circles wondering if they should stay in Edinmere or try to counter the escape. now that you mention it, simply releasing them to flee on their own would be a very Clovis-like plan. AFAIK, they're all civilians, so will be unlikely to pose a significant organized threat to Edinmere.
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:22 pm When the gate key was introduced we considered that to be a bit Overpowered at first since what forbides you to use it to teleport enemy troops behind enemy lines? Then turned out that you cannot take the key with you severely limiting its usefulness. I personally think it got nerfed due our small discussion here about it. Anyhow i honestly believe it is just a bauble, something rich mages use to show off to their friends, they send a servant with the key and the guest then teleport to your manor, eventually they come back and your servant has to ride with the key back home
*nods*...
Is Trace still carrying it?
Has the gate had long enough to recharge since Zen was rescued?
Could it be used to get him, Flora, Sythe, Maren, and Nibbly out of the greenhouse and into the back garden?
Yes, it would be Raine-teleport-esque escape, but the (Detritus controlled) security systems are not as restrictive or dangerous outside the house.

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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#39 Post by Bellhead »

Tornir wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:11 pm
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:22 pm snip
*nods*...
Is Trace still carrying it?
Has the gate had long enough to recharge since Zen was rescued?
Could it be used to get him, Flora, Sythe, Maren, and Nibbly out of the greenhouse and into the back garden?
Yes, it would be Raine-teleport-esque escape, but the (Detritus controlled) security systems are not as restrictive or dangerous outside the house.
I'd bet he is, but I also don't think he has the strategic mind to think to use it. And we still don't know the extent of Detritus' control over teleportation restrictions... He may well have blocked teleporting within the greenhouse entirely, in which case, even the gate key would be useless.

True, it might be safer outside, but given the crap Old Trace had been doing, and how much Trace knows about it now, I doubt he'd run from it, unless he was leading Detritus somewhere. And he wouldn't even think of that, unless somebody else suggested it, and that won't happen in the middle of a shouting match between Trace, Detritus and Stoney with Flora in the middle.

My current theory regarding that: Whatever's happening here will stay in the greenhouse, or at least centered on it. But Trace is almost certainly going to stay in the greenhouse until a resolution is reached.
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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#40 Post by Tornir »

Bellhead wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:45 pm I'd bet he is, but I also don't think he has the strategic mind to think to use it. And we still don't know the extent of Detritus' control over teleportation restrictions... He may well have blocked teleporting within the greenhouse entirely, in which case, even the gate key would be useless.

True, it might be safer outside, but given the crap Old Trace had been doing, and how much Trace knows about it now, I doubt he'd run from it, unless he was leading Detritus somewhere. And he wouldn't even think of that, unless somebody else suggested it, and that won't happen in the middle of a shouting match between Trace, Detritus and Stoney with Flora in the middle.

My current theory regarding that: Whatever's happening here will stay in the greenhouse, or at least centered on it. But Trace is almost certainly going to stay in the greenhouse until a resolution is reached.
Does anyone know what happens if a gate key tries to go through itself?
Is it just blocked, or does the key and the holder disappear into an infinite dimensional loop (or something).
Opening the gate behind Detritus, and getting Stoney to tackle and throw him through at the same time as Trace throws the key after them might work?
(Yeah, unlikely, but I'll throw it out there.)

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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#41 Post by Bellhead »

Tornir wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:55 pm Does anyone know what happens if a gate key tries to go through itself?
Is it just blocked, or does the key and the holder disappear into an infinite dimensional loop (or something).
Opening the gate behind Detritus, and getting Stoney to tackle and throw him through at the same time as Trace throws the key after them might work?
(Yeah, unlikely, but I'll throw it out there.)
I'd bet the portal simply isn't capable of teleporting an active key. It would make more sense, as I see it, for it to simply disappear out of their hand, and fall to the ground on the other side of the portal when someone goes through it.
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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#42 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:45 pm
Tornir wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:11 pm
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:22 pm snip
*nods*...
Is Trace still carrying it?
Has the gate had long enough to recharge since Zen was rescued?
Could it be used to get him, Flora, Sythe, Maren, and Nibbly out of the greenhouse and into the back garden?
Yes, it would be Raine-teleport-esque escape, but the (Detritus controlled) security systems are not as restrictive or dangerous outside the house.
I'd bet he is, but I also don't think he has the strategic mind to think to use it. And we still don't know the extent of Detritus' control over teleportation restrictions... He may well have blocked teleporting within the greenhouse entirely, in which case, even the gate key would be useless.

True, it might be safer outside, but given the crap Old Trace had been doing, and how much Trace knows about it now, I doubt he'd run from it, unless he was leading Detritus somewhere. And he wouldn't even think of that, unless somebody else suggested it, and that won't happen in the middle of a shouting match between Trace, Detritus and Stoney with Flora in the middle.

My current theory regarding that: Whatever's happening here will stay in the greenhouse, or at least centered on it. But Trace is almost certainly going to stay in the greenhouse until a resolution is reached.
Yeah agreed. There are currently 2 fronts now. Flora, Trace, Syther and Nibs vs Detritus trying to save Maren and the rest of the party will likely have to deal Clovis in the next pages. Now at this point I am not sure Tom intends to show old Trace but if they do i am sure both parties will have to deal with him.
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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#43 Post by Warrl »

The problem with a gate key is that when you use it you leave an open channel from where you were to where you are. Unless it can be deactivated remotely AND the user has to know how to activate *that specific* gate key (or perhaps to *that specific* destination) - general knowledge won't suffice.

So it's great for sending people somewhere, or perhaps for allowing them to come back (if you have a way of knowing when they want to), or for establishing a semipermanent fast route between two places, but not for going somewhere yourself - particularly not for escaping pursuit.

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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#44 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Warrl wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:19 pm The problem with a gate key is that when you use it you leave an open channel from where you were to where you are. Unless it can be deactivated remotely AND the user has to know how to activate *that specific* gate key (or perhaps to *that specific* destination) - general knowledge won't suffice.

So it's great for sending people somewhere, or perhaps for allowing them to come back (if you have a way of knowing when they want to), or for establishing a semipermanent fast route between two places, but not for going somewhere yourself - particularly not for escaping pursuit.
It could be used as a escape route. If the user is willing to heroically sacrifice himself to stay and stall the enemy, probably also destroying the key once everyone crosses.
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Re: Comic for September 11, 2021: Detritus vs Stone pt3

#45 Post by Bellhead »

Warrl wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 6:19 pm The problem with a gate key is that when you use it you leave an open channel from where you were to where you are. Unless it can be deactivated remotely AND the user has to know how to activate *that specific* gate key (or perhaps to *that specific* destination) - general knowledge won't suffice.

So it's great for sending people somewhere, or perhaps for allowing them to come back (if you have a way of knowing when they want to), or for establishing a semipermanent fast route between two places, but not for going somewhere yourself - particularly not for escaping pursuit.
Remember what Reni said about it, back when she first showed it to the group? If she held it, it would take them to her home, but if Trace did, it would take them to his. The key seems to only go to whatever destination a person has set as, (I would assume) typically their home. I wonder if the gate would automatically close a few seconds after whoever activated it passed through. That would make sense, for security reasons.
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