Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#46 Post by Rafe » Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:29 am

Thanks Xian and Technic[Bot], lots of interesting details.
One thing you find in the Americas, is that many tribal groups considered themselves (and their names for themselves show this), "The True People", "The Real Humans", and others were something less, of course. You could do all kinds of nasty things to those who were less than human. The House of Valois and the House of Plantagenet were both the same French people (who just happened to be running England), and both Christian. The were just arguing about who should be King. In another 100 or 200 years when religious wars started in Europe, THEN those from another religion could be wiped out - whole towns full of them if you felt like it.

The other thing this reminds me of is the tragic legend of the two lovers Popocatepetl and Iztaccíhuatl, who, if I remember correctly, were Tlaxcaltecas, enemies of the Aztecs. I won't go into all the details, but the beautiful Iztaccíhuatl falls in love with the warrior Popocatepetl. Her father, the chief agrees to let them be married, as soon as Popocatepetl returns victorious from a battle (that the chief is sure he will be killed in). When he doesn't return when expected, the chief tells his daughter that Popocatepetl has been killed. Iztaccíhuat promptly dies of grief when she hears this. Almost immediately, Popocatepet shows up, having won a great victory, and then finds out what has happened. He is simultaneously filled with grief and anger. He carries Iztaccíhuatl's lifeless body into the mountains to restore her life, but it doesn't work, but Popocatepetl and Iztaccíhuatl are transformed into snow-covered volcanic mountains, and their pictures show up in Mexican restaurants across the Western Hemisphere.

There were also transformed into a fox and a wolf, who appeared as background art in the movie *Zootopia* for just a few seconds, to be noticed by people like me who pay attention to tiny insignificant details:

Image

[EDIT] Found it.
Image
It was on the side of Finnick's van, in the scene just after the "baby fox and his dad" scam, You can see it as Finnick leaves and says "If you kiss me tomorrow, I'll bite your face off! Ciao!"

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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#47 Post by Xian » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:37 am

Technic[Bot] wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:11 am
Xian wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:10 am

Actually, many of the Aztec's neighbors didn't share that view on war and religion (they did sacrifice human beings as part of their religion too, but not at a level that demanded to launch actual wars to provide enough victims...), and loathed them so much that when the Spaniards arrived they provided tens of thousands of warriors to help destroy the Aztecs...

As a matter of fact, the Aztecs had a reputation of being quite irrational and bloodthirsty when it come religious matters...

An concrete example from actual Aztec religious history: When the Aztecs were still a homeless, errant people wandering around North America in search of a place to settle down, they arrived to the lands of Culhuacan, where they were greeted by the king. The Aztecs told him that, as a way to show their gratitude, they would make one of his daughters "the wife of their god", implying that she would be made their great priestess.
The king of Culhuacan, flattered by their offer, accepted it, and sent them his favorite daughter. Soon after, he was invited to a ritual to honor the god Xipe Totec...
The lord of Culhuacan came, sat and feasted with the leaders of the Aztecs, and when the ritual was about to start... the priest of Xipe Totec appeared, wearing the skin of the princess as a body suit...

Yeah, they had taken the chance to use trickery to capture and sacrifice a virgin of royal blood, not caring that her father was the only leader willing to accept them in his lands (no wonder nobody else wanted then around!). The king of Culhuacan was incredibly pissed, of course, and he ordered his army to genocide the Aztecs, who had to escape and hide in a swamp, where they built their city, Mexico.
Well most actual scholars consider that Xochiyailyotl were less "war" and more ritual conflicts, the number of sacrifices that these events provided is considered to be way small compared to other events and most accounts of them are considered to be very exaggerated by the spanish. Not to say there were not many sacrifices: In the "New dedication of the greater temple"* (1487) over 10k persons were sacrificed.
And yes most other nations on Mesoamerica were really not on speaking terms with Aztecs/Mexicah mostly as they have managed to conquer most of them. The aztecs for their part did not ruled directly over the conquered lordships but simply levied taxes. So when the Spanish arrived most people saw them as a way to get rid of the aztec rule.
And yes curiously enough the Aztec did come from the north, Aztlan as they called it, and when they finally arrived to the Mexico's Valley they were pushed by everyone else: Tepanecas, Xochimilcas, Tlatelolcas. Into the Great Texcoco lake which I can hardly compare with a swap, were they founded Tenochtitlan. Funnily enough the most bloodshed that city saw was when the spaniards finally breached in 1521 an routed the city. The channels that went all thorough the city were then filled by blood.

*poor translation
The Aztecs settled in some low islands that were pretty swampy at the time. By the time the Spaniards arrived the Aztecs had done some serius engineering work, and Tenochtitlan no longer was on a swamp, but it was a great city crossed by lots of canals...

There are many different works giving different numbers when it come the average number of people sacrificed every year; the problem is, most of these works are very politized, and feel the need to be either pro-Aztec or pro-Spanish, which is quite dumb... both did horrible things, it is not a matter of who was the "good" and the "bad" side.

The Flowery Wars may be ritual from the Aztecs' point of view, but most of their subjects and neighbors didn't share it and saw it as a war of survival... nobody likes taxes, but having family members dragged away to be sacrificed is worse...

And you have to take into account, Tlaxcala, which wasn't conquered or destroyed in order to be keep serving as a source of war prisioners had a population of a few tens of thousands inhabitants... even if the Aztecs took only a few hundreds every year, from their point of view it was a lot of people...

EDIT: Yes, the Aztecs came from the north, but technically speaking, the Valley of Mexico is still part of North America. Central America starts south of Mexico.

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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#48 Post by Technic[Bot] » Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:28 am

Rafe wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:29 am
-Snip-
The other thing this reminds me of is the tragic legend of the two lovers Popocatepetl and Iztaccíhuatl, who, if I remember correctly, were Tlaxcaltecas, enemies of the Aztecs. I won't go into all the details, but the beautiful Iztaccíhuatl falls in love with the warrior Popocatepetl. Her father, the chief agrees to let them be married, as soon as Popocatepetl returns victorious from a battle (that the chief is sure he will be killed in). When he doesn't return when expected, the chief tells his daughter that Popocatepetl has been killed. Iztaccíhuat promptly dies of grief when she hears this. Almost immediately, Popocatepet shows up, having won a great victory, and then finds out what has happened. He is simultaneously filled with grief and anger. He carries Iztaccíhuatl's lifeless body into the mountains to restore her life, but it doesn't work, but Popocatepetl and Iztaccíhuatl are transformed into snow-covered volcanic mountains, and their pictures show up in Mexican restaurants across the Western Hemisphere.

There were also transformed into a fox and a wolf, who appeared as background art in the movie *Zootopia* for just a few seconds, to be noticed by people like me who pay attention to tiny insignificant details:

Now that is new... Also they look nordic...
Both the Iztaccihualt and the Popocatepetl are actual volcanoes, the latter pretty active
Also a more traditional representation of the myth for comparison.
Xian wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:37 am
The Aztecs settled in some low islands that were pretty swampy at the time. By the time the Spaniards arrived the Aztecs had done some serius engineering work, and Tenochtitlan no longer was on a swamp, but it was a great city crossed by lots of canals...

There are many different works giving different numbers when it come the average number of people sacrificed every year; the problem is, most of these works are very politized, and feel the need to be either pro-Aztec or pro-Spanish, which is quite dumb... both did horrible things, it is not a matter of who was the "good" and the "bad" side.

The Flowery Wars may be ritual from the Aztecs' point of view, but most of their subjects and neighbors didn't share it and saw it as a war of survival... nobody likes taxes, but having family members dragged away to be sacrificed is worse...

And you have to take into account, Tlaxcala, which wasn't conquered or destroyed in order to be keep serving as a source of war prisioners had a population of a few tens of thousands inhabitants... even if the Aztecs took only a few hundreds every year, from their point of view it was a lot of people...

EDIT: Yes, the Aztecs came from the north, but technically speaking, the Valley of Mexico is still part of North America. Central America starts south of Mexico.
Again the Texcoco lake was a lake, with sections of salt, fresh and brackish water and of courses marshes around the edges but definitely a lake deep enough for Cortez to sail with artillery on it. Even the few spots, in Xochimilco, are a bunch of canals Cris-crossed by chinampas or artificial islands.
In floral wars both sides could take prisoners and some scholars these days consider the whole ritual aspect to be more an excuse than the main reason to conduct them. At the end of the day they were good training and cheaper than real wars.
Stimates for the siege of tenochtitlan are around the 200k casualties for the aztec side.
Finally Aztec ran their conquered territories more like Romans. and as such they were seen more like an invading presence. A lot of local nations considered them a threat long before spaniards got here.
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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#49 Post by Xian » Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:47 pm

All I said is that the islands they took refuge were low and swampy... and yes, Hernán Cortez used bergantines, which were basically large boats, during the siege; but the water was still shallow enough that the city was connected to the shore with earthen causeways, and they could expand the islands raising walls along the shore and piling mud and dirt behind them...

And even if both sides could take part in the Flowery Wars, that doesn't mean non-Aztecs were happy about taking part in them...

Tlaxcala had a population of around 260,000-270,000 people... So, as I said, even if the prisioners taken from them were in the hundreds rather than in the thousands, it was still a lot from their point of view...

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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#50 Post by Welsh halfwit » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:40 pm

I tend to wonder if Keidran's are curious about Karen's ears?
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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#51 Post by Xian » Fri Jul 12, 2019 11:48 pm

Welsh halfwit wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:40 pm
I tend to wonder if Keidran's are curious about Karen's ears?
It is weird that nobody asks... I mean, yes, there is magic in that world, but we have cosmetic surgery and orthodontics in our own world that allows to mimic stuff like horns, snake tongues, crocodile scales and shark teeth... and despite knowing those are possible, we would still be surprised if we walked into somebody having all those...

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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#52 Post by Neutral Smith » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:01 am

There are Adrakist.
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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#53 Post by Xian » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:30 pm

Neutral Smith wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:01 am
There are Adrakist.
Yeah, Adrakists are the equivalent of these real-world people:

Image
Image
Image
Image

But we still flinche if we unexpectedly bumped unto one of those real-life people... that's why I think it is weird nobody looks surprised when meeting Karen, and nobody asks her something like: "so... I take you like Keidran a lot, don't you...?"

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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#54 Post by Technic[Bot] » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:36 pm

Neutral Smith wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:01 am
There are Adrakist.
I imagine that Adrakist are rather uncommon and as pointed by Mr Xian they are probably a bit extreme on their quest to become dragons. I imagine that, at a glance, Karen simply looks Keidran or human enough for most people not to really notice something is off. Also we have never seen her interactions with anyone who is not aware of her "condition". For Maren, Red and Even Raine that is the norm these days and most other people have not gotten around to notice it.
But now that you mention i wonder how common is transformation magic in the world of twokinds. On canon only Nora and Trace have used it and for all we now Seraphina might be a simple illusion spell same as Carver. That been said transformation magic is one of the side sketches main themes.
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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#55 Post by Warrl » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:49 pm

Technic[Bot] wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:36 pm
But now that you mention i wonder how common is transformation magic in the world of twokinds. On canon only Nora and Trace have used it and for all we now Seraphina might be a simple illusion spell same as Carver. That been said transformation magic is one of the side sketches main themes.
We've canonically seen Euchre, Rose, and Raine use it on themselves. We canonically know Nora and Trace have used it on others, although we didn't actually see either one do so. We also canonically know that others are aware of it.

As for Saraphina, somebody transformed her, but we've no reason to think it was anyone we know.

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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#56 Post by Technic[Bot] » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:07 pm

Warrl wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:49 pm
Technic[Bot] wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:36 pm
But now that you mention i wonder how common is transformation magic in the world of twokinds. On canon only Nora and Trace have used it and for all we now Seraphina might be a simple illusion spell same as Carver. That been said transformation magic is one of the side sketches main themes.
We've canonically seen Euchre, Rose, and Raine use it on themselves. We canonically know Nora and Trace have used it on others, although we didn't actually see either one do so. We also canonically know that others are aware of it.

As for Saraphina, somebody transformed her, but we've no reason to think it was anyone we know.
It does seem to be rather uncommon. Only some select people, like Raine and her family, or very powerful entities, like Nora and Trace seem to be able to pull it off. In the case of Seraphina I am not sure it was an actual transformation, as imperfect as it was, or a simply magical construct or illusion spell such as Carver's.
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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#57 Post by Warrl » Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:19 am

Technic[Bot] wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:07 pm
In the case of Seraphina I am not sure it was an actual transformation, as imperfect as it was, or a simply magical construct or illusion spell such as Carver's.
She tail-slapped Keith.

When Keith shattered her amulet, her ability to fly and breathe fire apparently went away. So it was powering, and perhaps containing, those spells. It would be logical to think that if her shape was an illusion spell, it would be powered the same way. And yet her shape didn't change.

I'm pretty sure that she's really transformed... to a somewhat-dragon-shaped human, NOT to a dragon.

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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#58 Post by Ddraig » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:26 am

Warrl wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:19 am
Technic[Bot] wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:07 pm
In the case of Seraphina I am not sure it was an actual transformation, as imperfect as it was, or a simply magical construct or illusion spell such as Carver's.
She tail-slapped Keith.

When Keith shattered her amulet, her ability to fly and breathe fire apparently went away. So it was powering, and perhaps containing, those spells. It would be logical to think that if her shape was an illusion spell, it would be powered the same way. And yet her shape didn't change.

I'm pretty sure that she's really transformed... to a somewhat-dragon-shaped human, NOT to a dragon.
There's definitely some illusion magic going on - immediately before and after her necklace gem breaking, at a minimum her legs go from merged between scale and skin to looking like boots. Her tail does remain prehensile(ish?) afterwards, though, so there's at least two separate things going on, one of which allows unconscious control of the tail. I'd call that transformative magic similar to whatever Trace hit Karen with.

So her legs and arms are either A) gloves/boots (which begs the question 'why the tail but not these?') or B) actually transformed but with a sharp scale/skin transition that the amulet hid on the legs.

It also appears the amulet allowed her some further abilities (e.g. the fire wings, flying, and flame manipulation) so there's a lot going on here
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Re: Comic for June 29th, 2019: Checking on the Prisoner(s)

#59 Post by Neptune » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:28 am

Panther wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:33 pm
Neptune wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:46 pm
...And then Maddie died of internal bleeding. The end.
Nope ........... Maddie finishes married to Carver , during a spying mission (remember he's in basitins island) XD
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