Comic for June 9, 2019: Relearning Control

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Re: Comic for June 9, 2019: Relearning Control

#16 Post by Insomniac » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:23 pm

Shockwave07 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Well we finally get an idea of what Rose is going for with the collar training... That was kinkier than I intended that to sound.
The temptation to look up the slashfiction is growing.
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Re: Comic for June 9, 2019: Relearning Control

#17 Post by Brith0s » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:27 pm

Canon that supports keidran form as natural for Raine.
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/728/
Raine is born keidran or is such shortly after. Ok, this is indirect knowledge, but the story of a midwife fainting on a baby's aspect is so sad to grow up with, that very likely happened in truth.

Secondly,
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/533/
when the shackle is open Raine turns naturally to human and vice versa. The magic of the shackle makes sense to function when closed and in its absence Raine is keidran. Only when the magic turns on again, she reverts to human.

As I see it, Raine is so much human as Natani is male. Both have a mental species/gender and a physical one they are uncomfortable with.

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Re: Comic for June 9, 2019: Relearning Control

#18 Post by Warrl » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:40 pm

Whereas, considering that Raine's mother is human and her father was human when she was conceived, I'd naturally assume that she's human when magic isn't involved.

Does this fit? When have we seen her human?

(1) When she was wearing that magic suppressor shackle - note, it's explicitly a suppressor, and they used it to suppress Zen's magical link with Natani. That fits.

(2) For a while after she deliberately spent a lot of magical energy, pushing Carver to teleport to somewhere other than where he intended (and implied to be much farther away).

It looks like if she doesn't use magic power, it builds up in her and eventually finds a way to leak out. If there's something she desperately wants, it goes with that - thus the short teleport at the tavern (she really wanted to be somewhere else and take her friends with her - but it was several people and the magic was having to get past the shackle, so she didn't get very far). Otherwise, it goes with her inherited natural affinity for transformation magic. And simply being transformed is apparently enough to prevent further uncontrolled release, but not enough to drain her to the point that she can shift back.

(This is rather similar to the situation Elliot in El Goonish Shive was in for a while. He had to deliberately spend a safe portion of each day transformed, or he would spontaneously transform whenever the magic built up too much. Which might or might not be at a safe time. His transformation magic potentially has significant social repercussions, and in certain circumstances a degree of physical danger as well. Plus, he lives in a world where magic is mostly a secret.)

But the author has stated that she's one of the world's more powerful (albeit untrained) mages who aren't dragons. So she'd have a lot of magic-energy build-up, particularly now as she's maturing into adulthood.

If this is correct, the probable first step to teaching her control is to teach her any deliberate magic other than transformation, preferably something high-power but not particularly dangerous or destructive, and get her to use it a lot. That will burn off energy to where she can more easily shift back to human. Then work on controlling her transformations.

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Re: Comic for June 9, 2019: Relearning Control

#19 Post by AndreRhineDavis » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:07 am

Brith0s wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:27 pm
Canon that supports keidran form as natural for Raine.
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/728/
Raine is born keidran or is such shortly after. Ok, this is indirect knowledge, but the story of a midwife fainting on a baby's aspect is so sad to grow up with, that very likely happened in truth.

Secondly,
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/533/
when the shackle is open Raine turns naturally to human and vice versa. The magic of the shackle makes sense to function when closed and in its absence Raine is keidran. Only when the magic turns on again, she reverts to human.

As I see it, Raine is so much human as Natani is male. Both have a mental species/gender and a physical one they are uncomfortable with.
Warrl wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:40 pm
Whereas, considering that Raine's mother is human and her father was human when she was conceived, I'd naturally assume that she's human when magic isn't involved.

Does this fit? When have we seen her human?

(1) When she was wearing that magic suppressor shackle - note, it's explicitly a suppressor, and they used it to suppress Zen's magical link with Natani. That fits.

(2) For a while after she deliberately spent a lot of magical energy, pushing Carver to teleport to somewhere other than where he intended (and implied to be much farther away).

It looks like if she doesn't use magic power, it builds up in her and eventually finds a way to leak out. If there's something she desperately wants, it goes with that - thus the short teleport at the tavern (she really wanted to be somewhere else and take her friends with her - but it was several people and the magic was having to get past the shackle, so she didn't get very far). Otherwise, it goes with her inherited natural affinity for transformation magic. And simply being transformed is apparently enough to prevent further uncontrolled release, but not enough to drain her to the point that she can shift back.

(This is rather similar to the situation Elliot in El Goonish Shive was in for a while. He had to deliberately spend a safe portion of each day transformed, or he would spontaneously transform whenever the magic built up too much. Which might or might not be at a safe time. His transformation magic potentially has significant social repercussions, and in certain circumstances a degree of physical danger as well. Plus, he lives in a world where magic is mostly a secret.)

But the author has stated that she's one of the world's more powerful (albeit untrained) mages who aren't dragons. So she'd have a lot of magic-energy build-up, particularly now as she's maturing into adulthood.

If this is correct, the probable first step to teaching her control is to teach her any deliberate magic other than transformation, preferably something high-power but not particularly dangerous or destructive, and get her to use it a lot. That will burn off energy to where she can more easily shift back to human. Then work on controlling her transformations.
Raine's reference sheet as made by Tom seems to imply that Raine is fundamentally human.
It says "Natural-born human. White Wolf Alternate Form".

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Re: Comic for June 9, 2019: Relearning Control

#20 Post by Brith0s » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:07 am

Yes, there is the ref sheet (which is not-so-much canon as the comic). And yet, Raine shifts more spontaneously to keidran than to human.

To classify Raine as human or keidran is as pointless as labelling Natani as male or female. No, he isn't, but actually, yes...

For Raine I perceive a 'culturally induced' aspect preference that clashes with her reality. Suppose that she could have grown up raised in a regular keidran village, unaware of her human ancestry. If properly trained, she would just show Euchre trait of flawless transformation, and none would dispute her keidran nature.

Anyway, regardless the not so relevant baseline form discussion, the important point is:
As other posters (and Rose words) suggested, her discovery path must imho pass through the awareness of her keidran self. Not necessary to embrace it, but to accept it. Think again of Natani's arc. The parallel appears quite strong to me.

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Re: Comic for June 9, 2019: Relearning Control

#21 Post by Dadrobit » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:51 am

Just popping in to clear up the "Raine's humanity?" question. Tom has mentioned many times before that she is strictly human. She has no amount of keidran within her bloodline whatsoever due to Euchre's literal perfect transformation that she then inherited but gained little to no control over. Raine transforms "back" to a keidran without the collar not because the collar had any "make the wearer a human" enchantment; it was simply a magic nullifier. It kept her constantly at such a low mana pool that her body just couldn't transform.

Apologies for spelling/grammar, typing from a phone. :mrgrin:
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Re: Comic for June 9, 2019: Relearning Control

#22 Post by SpottedKitty » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:03 pm

I think something's getting overlooked on the subject of "Rose's intentions". Look back to last week's page. Rose didn't intend for Raine to put the collar on. She was presenting it as a "worst case" example of what Raine would have to do to regain control, precisely to shock her into considering other options. Unfortunately Raine was desperate enough to grab at the first suggestion given by someone who sounded like she knew what she was talking about.

Whether or not it was actually a good idea... Image
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Re: Comic for June 9, 2019: Relearning Control

#23 Post by Josh.C » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:12 pm

Dadrobit wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:51 am
Just popping in to clear up the "Raine's humanity?" question. Tom has mentioned many times before that she is strictly human. She has no amount of keidran within her bloodline whatsoever due to Euchre's literal perfect transformation that she then inherited but gained little to no control over. Raine transforms "back" to a keidran without the collar not because the collar had any "make the wearer a human" enchantment; it was simply a magic nullifier. It kept her constantly at such a low mana pool that her body just couldn't transform.

Apologies for spelling/grammar, typing from a phone. :mrgrin:
But wouldn't something named Perfect Transformation change her on such a level that her having a base form of human would be pointless when active? Also why would she change into a form that looks like she inherited her full blooded white wolf heritage from her father? It would make more sense for her to become a smaller version of whose holding her, rather then physical manifestation of the full blooded keidren daughter of Euchre becuase she would have biological link to her fathers DNA. (My best guess is her magic carries some sort of impression from her father and mother that allows her to change in between her two biological heritages.)

That being said, if she is fully human when in her human form. Then one has o wonder what suppressing her powers for so long would be doing to her on a biological level and what removing the limiters on human and keidren breeding that Neutral has done, will do to Raine?

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Re: Raine's Control and Self-Acceptance Issues

#24 Post by AmigaDragon » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:30 pm

JDEzekude wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:34 pm
When Clovis finally comes knocking (and I've been dying to see him again for months), I have a feeling he won't hesitate to prey on everyone's weaknesses, including Raine after how she banished his henchman Carver...
All Clovis knows so far is that Carver has vanished, nothing about group B's (recent) whereabouts or their identities. All he cares about finding so far are Zen & Natani and probably knows that Zen was sent out after Sythe and some humans. It makes sense that he would expect Zen to eventually meet back up with Natani (mind link telling each where the other is).
Warrl wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:40 pm
it's explicitly a suppressor, and they used it to suppress Zen's magical link with Natani. That fits.
...
If this is correct, the probable first step to teaching her control is to teach her any deliberate magic other than transformation, preferably something high-power but not particularly dangerous or destructive, and get her to use it a lot. That will burn off energy to where she can more easily shift back to human. Then work on controlling her transformations.
They used it to prevent him from using magic against them (thinking that he was the caster, not merely the conduit).

Both Raine and Natani could benefit from some formal magic training. Raine to fill out her book-study, Nat to teach her more efficient magic use. They may even benefit from magic discussions between just the two of them without a 3rd party tutor, Nat sharing her improv and Raine sharing book theory.
Brith0s wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:07 am
Yes, there is the ref sheet (which is not-so-much canon as the comic). And yet, Raine shifts more spontaneously to keidran than to human.
Coming from Tom, I'd say it is canon. Raine's spontaneous shifts may be more fear-driven by her subconscious when she gets emotional.
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