The question of Natani

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Rakaydos
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Re: The question of Natani

#31 Post by Rakaydos »

So I see at least one person who feels that it would be disrespectful of transfolk to call Natani trans. But two self-identified transfolk who are fine with the identification.

While the link was active, Natani (linktani?) was undoubtably trans- literally a soul being healed over a male pattern, in a female body. Attraction to males isnt counterevidence here- transfolk can still be gay, straight, bi , pan, whatever.

Pre-link youngtani is more of an open question. Strong cultural roles told "her" that her sex meant she was weak. But our first inkling of Natani wanting to "not be female" was shortly after their parents died and Zen blamed Natani's emotional responce (to the death of loved ones!) on femaleness. "I wish I was like you, brother."


Image


Image


There was also a hefty element of not having a female role model, of course. They were parentless, and noone actually cared about youngtani or post-link Natani except Zen, until Keith showed up. Very few even found out about "her":


Image
So culturally, Youngtani was raised as male and was actively suppressing "her" female side... and "Secretly liked it," according to her own soul. If not trans, Youngtani was at least genderfluid.

Post-Link Newtani is an unknown element, of course, though we can take some hints from when Natani was awake while the link was suppressed. Feels pretty action-hero-male-stereotype to me.

Image

But all we've seen so far of Newtani after the link is broken completely is eyes representing a complete soul. If my above speculation on youngtani is correct, I would think that genderfluid youngtani is slotting into a zen-shaped hole in Linktani's psyche, with new experiences and role models that youngtani never had. It will be uncomfortable for a time until Newtani adjusts, but I suspect Newtani will remain male-expressing by wolf standards, but genderfluid at least as far as the Bastinian King's expression of feminine ideal.

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Bellhead
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Re: The question of Natani

#32 Post by Bellhead »

Rakaydos wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 11:13 am So I see at least one person who feels that it would be disrespectful of transfolk to call Natani trans. But two self-identified transfolk who are fine with the identification.

While the link was active, Natani (linktani?) was undoubtably trans- literally a soul being healed over a male pattern, in a female body. Attraction to males isnt counterevidence here- transfolk can still be gay, straight, bi , pan, whatever.

Pre-link youngtani is more of an open question. Strong cultural roles told "her" that her sex meant she was weak. But our first inkling of Natani wanting to "not be female" was shortly after their parents died and Zen blamed Natani's emotional responce (to the death of loved ones!) on femaleness. "I wish I was like you, brother."
https://cdn.twokinds.keenspot.com/comics/20060922.jpg
https://cdn.twokinds.keenspot.com/comics/20070216.jpg
There was also a hefty element of not having a female role model, of course. They were parentless, and noone actually cared about youngtani or post-link Natani except Zen, until Keith showed up. Very few even found out about "her":
https://cdn.twokinds.keenspot.com/comics/20080730.jpg
So culturally, Youngtani was raised as male and was actively suppressing "her" female side... and "Secretly liked it," according to her own soul. If not trans, Youngtani was at least genderfluid.

Post-Link Newtani is an unknown element, of course, though we can take some hints from when Natani was awake while the link was suppressed. Feels pretty action-hero-male-stereotype to me.
https://cdn.twokinds.keenspot.com/comics/20160914.jpg
But all we've seen so far of Newtani after the link is broken completely is eyes representing a complete soul. If my above speculation on youngtani is correct, I would think that genderfluid youngtani is slotting into a zen-shaped hole in Linktani's psyche, with new experiences and role models that youngtani never had. It will be uncomfortable for a time until Newtani adjusts, but I suspect Newtani will remain male-expressing by wolf standards, but genderfluid at least as far as the Bastinian King's expression of feminine ideal.
The question of Natani's psyche has been debated, argued, and dissected for far longer than anyone still here can remember, and I think it's fair to say that Natani's situation (during the link, anyway) is unique enough that any label put on it would be "close, but not quite right". With that said, I have little experience with trans people aside from the idea of not identifying with your physical sex, regardless of sexual preference. There's more variations than I ever learned in school, so I've simplified it as "You do you and be happy, just don't force it on me".

Now back on topic. I've always thought of pre-link Natani as a tomboy of sorts. Physically female, identifies as female, acts like a male (to a degree). During the link, Nat had the same physical body, and most tendencies, but identified as male. And after having tea with the king, and dealing with the ship fire, and now fighting a dragon, I feel Jades words, But have you ever considered that strength and femininity do not necessarily have to be mutually exclusive? had and/or will have quite an impact with the way Natani views the world, especially with Keith and all of them nearby. And quite frankly, Jade was right. Strength is strength, and femininity is femininity. Just because culture mixes the two does not mean they are inherently related, and that is a lesson that I believe Natani will be learning on a deep level in the coming chapters.

I'll also say that, way back when in the golden days of yore, we asked Tom in the stream chat whether Natani was gay or straight, and his answer was "Natani is Keith-sexual". To me that means demisexual, as I've come to understand it, regardless of physical sex or gender. So until we get confirmation post-link from Natani in canon, I will say that the issue of Nat's gender identity is likely going to be either infinitely discussed, or acknowledged as something not agreed upon. Agree to disagree, as it were. It's a unique situation, after all.
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Re: The question of Natani

#33 Post by Insomniac »

Bellhead wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:14 am
Rakaydos wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 11:13 am So I see at least one person who feels that it would be disrespectful of transfolk to call Natani trans. But two self-identified transfolk who are fine with the identification.

While the link was active, Natani (linktani?) was undoubtably trans- literally a soul being healed over a male pattern, in a female body. Attraction to males isnt counterevidence here- transfolk can still be gay, straight, bi , pan, whatever.

Pre-link youngtani is more of an open question. Strong cultural roles told "her" that her sex meant she was weak. But our first inkling of Natani wanting to "not be female" was shortly after their parents died and Zen blamed Natani's emotional responce (to the death of loved ones!) on femaleness. "I wish I was like you, brother."
https://cdn.twokinds.keenspot.com/comics/20060922.jpg
https://cdn.twokinds.keenspot.com/comics/20070216.jpg
There was also a hefty element of not having a female role model, of course. They were parentless, and noone actually cared about youngtani or post-link Natani except Zen, until Keith showed up. Very few even found out about "her":
https://cdn.twokinds.keenspot.com/comics/20080730.jpg
So culturally, Youngtani was raised as male and was actively suppressing "her" female side... and "Secretly liked it," according to her own soul. If not trans, Youngtani was at least genderfluid.

Post-Link Newtani is an unknown element, of course, though we can take some hints from when Natani was awake while the link was suppressed. Feels pretty action-hero-male-stereotype to me.
https://cdn.twokinds.keenspot.com/comics/20160914.jpg
But all we've seen so far of Newtani after the link is broken completely is eyes representing a complete soul. If my above speculation on youngtani is correct, I would think that genderfluid youngtani is slotting into a zen-shaped hole in Linktani's psyche, with new experiences and role models that youngtani never had. It will be uncomfortable for a time until Newtani adjusts, but I suspect Newtani will remain male-expressing by wolf standards, but genderfluid at least as far as the Bastinian King's expression of feminine ideal.
The question of Natani's psyche has been debated, argued, and dissected for far longer than anyone still here can remember, and I think it's fair to say that Natani's situation (during the link, anyway) is unique enough that any label put on it would be "close, but not quite right". With that said, I have little experience with trans people aside from the idea of not identifying with your physical sex, regardless of sexual preference. There's more variations than I ever learned in school, so I've simplified it as "You do you and be happy, just don't force it on me".

Now back on topic. I've always thought of pre-link Natani as a tomboy of sorts. Physically female, identifies as female, acts like a male (to a degree). During the link, Nat had the same physical body, and most tendencies, but identified as male. And after having tea with the king, and dealing with the ship fire, and now fighting a dragon, I feel Jades words, But have you ever considered that strength and femininity do not necessarily have to be mutually exclusive? had and/or will have quite an impact with the way Natani views the world, especially with Keith and all of them nearby. And quite frankly, Jade was right. Strength is strength, and femininity is femininity. Just because culture mixes the two does not mean they are inherently related, and that is a lesson that I believe Natani will be learning on a deep level in the coming chapters.

I'll also say that, way back when in the golden days of yore, we asked Tom in the stream chat whether Natani was gay or straight, and his answer was "Natani is Keith-sexual". To me that means demisexual, as I've come to understand it, regardless of physical sex or gender. So until we get confirmation post-link from Natani in canon, I will say that the issue of Nat's gender identity is likely going to be either infinitely discussed, or acknowledged as something not agreed upon. Agree to disagree, as it were. It's a unique situation, after all.
Slightly off topic, I've always loved that Adelaide showed respect for Natani and used the male pronoun in that page.
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Rakaydos
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Re: The question of Natani

#34 Post by Rakaydos »

I am now fully expecting a later scene:

N- Hey zen.
Z- Nat! you're alive? Your eyes...
N- You remember... her? in the mindscape?
Z- Oh. Does that mean you're my sister again?
N- Ug, that feels so strange. I think... (insert Word of Tom of how we should address Nat from now on)

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Re: The question of Natani

#35 Post by CloudyCryst »

I get where you're coming from. Natani's gender identity sparks debate, but let's keep it civil. Different interpretations are cool, but forcing views onto others isn't.

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Re: The question of Natani

#36 Post by Hulk10 »

I don't bother to think about it. Tom Fishbach's view is the only one that really counts.
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In the name of the Mighty Legions of Predacons who preceded me I shall never again bow to your charge! But, I will heed your previous advice and face my true enemy AS A BEAST! -Predaking.

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Re: The question of Natani

#37 Post by Turaiel »

Noting here that while this topic being revived does technically violate the rules on necroposting, I'm choosing to keep it unlocked. It's had a lot of conversation in it over the years, and it remains a popular plot topic in the community.
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