amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
I don't think that's really true. I would say that the most significant of all the times Natani has shown Keith affection was after Heart's Desire 2, mainly the bath scene, and it was the most significant precisely because it was so hard. The proof of his love is that he was willing to set aside his own issues and unbend a bit, for Keith's sake.
While I do agree with the sentiment that her admission was hard, and that's what made it meaningful, I still think Natani's acceptance of her body enabling her to have a relationship is decently supported, at the very least from a storytelling point of view. For example, the last time Natani had a good opportunity to admit her feelings for Keith before the heart's desire spell
was here where she viciously buries it for being ''feminine''.
In the interim between that moment and her eventual admission, she's met Adelaide and started to consider that women and weakness don't have to go hand in hand. Now don't get me wrong, the stuff she goes through with Keith in the interim (and the fact that Laura is now gone) is the bigger part of her admitting to having feelings, but I think her meeting with Adelaide and coming to terms with her body in general still played a part, i'm not sure if she would have admitted her feelings to Keith without the meeting with the king, because she still would have considered those feelings feminine and weak.
The larger point though was that I don't feel Natani would be sticking to such dominant and rough treatment of Keith so often while also being willing to explore their bodies.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
Alas, I don't put much stock in anything Tom says today, much less how he phrased a poll he ran eight years ago.
Though I will say, in the interest of that meta discussion, that it's pretty interesting that the poll ran on the day of this page. But I'm guessing that, rather than to be guided on what to do, he was interested in figuring out what kind of audience reaction to expect, or maybe trying to see if people were reading the story like he intended it to be read.
Yeah author intent was purely what I was getting at with this poll stuff. I didn't expect to sway anyone with it, I just wanted to highlight Tom's use of ''revert'' in reference to her being male.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
(And for what it's worth, I'm inclined to agree that AHR is, if perhaps not impossible, quite a profoundly unlikely scenario.)
I would lean heavily towards impossible, I just don't believe there's any way you could believably alter Keith's story to result in him actively enjoying being submissive to another person, or likewise have Natani so desperately need to dominate Keith in order to be with him.
Since you've told me now that you
don't actually view Natani x Keith as a dom/sub kind of relationship I have wondered why you decided to write a fic based around that scenario, given that it goes against their real characterisations so much.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
For the decides part, it's Keith admiring Natani's willpower, and in that particular instance it's even in the context of Natani doing what Natani wants with Natani's body.
Not that he doesn't mean it more generally, and not that he isn't being honest, but it just invites some more questions: What sort of things does Natani take charge about, and when he does, what does he decide and why? All of which is variously illustrated throughout. As is people making decisions in general. You don't have to take Keith's word for it.
For the take the lead part, one of the things Natani does tend to take charge about are things involving his body. Having sex is one of these. For reasons that may or may not be intuitively obvious, but are also explored at some length regardless.
I keep saying that, but really, the stories in themselves are the thesis, and are supposed to answer (most of) the questions they raise. And I'd like to think they do. So in a perfect world, we'll both get the best outcome if you read the lot and then come back with your conclusions.
I would argue it reads much more like a general statement than something specific to that encounter, and Natani ends up taking over during that scene anyway. And the way it's worded makes it sound like a) Natani is the decision maker in the relationship and Keith follows along (which isn't a bad thing, I just don't think it's who they are) and b) if there is any kind of disagreement between them Keith defers to her, and that makes them unequal.
Also, why does he need to admire Natani's willpower, unless you feel Keith has less of it than she does?
I'll admit I still haven't read all of the EP series, so if you're going with the headcanon that future Natani still won't be fully comfortable with her body, or with sex in general unless she leads, then her taking charge with sex becomes easier to accept, though like I've said I don't think it will fit in canon, nor does either one of them ''leading'' in general.
I should say that I actually do see Natani being the one who decides when they first have sex and what they do the first few times, though not in a dominating way in the slightest, for obvious reasons. (And as for Keith himself, it's not because he doesn't have the spine to push for it, but because he doesn't want to risk hurting Natani by steering towards something she hasn't really shown herself being open to)
But EP seems to be set in a time where they've already been together for a couple of years, give or take, and I simply don't think she'd still require that level of ''control'' by that point and would be receptive if Keith was often initiating instead.
I also think that sex being mostly/entirely something that just
happens to Keith rather than something he can initiate would feel very emasculating to him, which may or may not be something you've already considered, and sure that's a sacrifice he'd be willing to make for Nat if he needed to, but I don't think that's what they will have, and that it isn't a good enough ending for Keith.
That in itself is a rather interesting, if grim, topic. Just how much discomfort is canon Keith willing to endure for the sake of Natani's ''condition''? What are the psychological effects that someone who's already gone through so much, having his first sexual encounters being submission going to be, and how far would he let himself be pushed if Natani did try something similar to the dominance thing she does here in AHR before Keith said enough, not I think she would actually want that, but we'll come to that later.
Before I move on though, you say that the ''What Natani decides, goes.'' Line does indeed apply more generally to their relationship. So i'm forced to ask, do you view Natani as the decision maker of the relationship, rather than a more equal pairing, with Keith as the follower and dare I say it, submissive one?
This feels like a willfully obtuse interpretation of something Natani says to Zen primarily to mess with Zen. And even if you went all in on that, it would still be a real stretch to in any way make it imply coercion, given how the initial scene plays.
The original bit is a double reference, to Natani wanting to wear pink, and to Keith (arguably, as far as color-coordination is concerned) wearing it better.
And yeah it's a joke, but it's also the sort of thing Keith would end up thinking about, when he's trying to understand Natani, paralleling the 'what's it like for a guy to kiss a guy' of the bath scene. Nat's body invites the question of female clothes, and presumably it's pretty clear to Keith that Nat's not exactly enthused by the idea. So what would it be like for a guy to cross-dress? Is it icky and why? What would Natani think if he did?
Which brings us to the larger point, which is that if Keith wore a dress, Natani would enjoy the hell out of it, whereas if Natani wore a dress, Keith's reaction would probably be 'Is everything okay?' In a sense, Keith is, of the two of them, the one who might be man enough to put a dress. (Which is another layer; any behaviour of Keith's is also tacit assurance to Natani that it's something that doesn't compromise his guy credentials, or risk Keith thinking any less of him.)
The concept does get explored further later down the line, but he never did end up in a dress on the pages, nor do I think he's got any real personal interest in cross-dressing. There is a backreference to this in FH, though, that does pretty clearly imply that Keith not only ended up in a dress at some point, he fought in one. The specific circumstances of that are left up to the imagination of the reader. (Though it probably involved a heist or something.)
The actual wording used is ''You could probably get him to wear a dress if you tried'' which is about as close to ''You could probably make him wear a dress if you tried'' as I care for it to be. It shows an awareness that both Keith needs to be convinced to do this, and a suggestion that Zen be the one to do it, it's framed as something that will be done for Zen's enjoyment, and it's even used as a stand in for Keith being magically turned into a woman for crying out loud, it's hard not to view it as emasculating to say the least. And perhaps more importantly, it's something Keith said to Natani alone, and she repeats it to Zen apparently without any thought for whether it was something Keith would want shared or not.
Viewing it as coercion vs not coercion might be missing the point, but I get the feeling that at this point in their relationship anything Keith and Natani actively wanted to ''indulge'' in the sack would have been done by now already, and having another party try to convince one of them to do something sexual for that parties enjoyment can't really have positive connotations. Gonna link back to this in a minute.
Or another way of viewing it, if Keith likes the idea of a new kink immediately, then great, but if he needs to be convinced to try out a fetish, they probably shouldn't be trying to convince him. It's a respect thing, and I feel that both Zen&Nat discussing Keith crossdressing behind his back, and Natani's reflecting of the initial question onto Keith are quite disrespectful to him.
You know I'm kind of torn on whether or not I like these scenes, even though I'd usually strongly dislike seeing male characters cross dressing in any form, since on the one hand it's a fan work poking fun at things drawn by the original creator in a playful way, which I'm normally all for, but on the other I see cross dressing as something Keith really wouldn't want a part in, and apparently neither do you, and I feel these kind of jokes probably shouldn't come at the cost of their real characterisations.
And yeah he would ask himself these kind of things, being with Natani, and while we're definitely not gonna get a clear answer in the comic as to whether he'd be willing to wear a dress or not, in my opinion it's a safe bet he'd file it under ''things I won't be doing'' and that if someone tried to suggest it to him it would be something he'd absolutely put his foot down about, especially if that someone has a personality like Zen of all people.
In fact like you say later he's a somewhat violent person on occasion, and I feel if anyone but Natani was to push Keith to do something ''girly'' they'd probably end up with a black eye, though that's quite a tangent so i'll leave it.
I'm not convinced Natani would enjoy seeing Keith cross dressing to be honest. At any rate, we actually saw Natani imagine herself in a dress in that page you linked, and she was not just excited but downright delighted at the idea of it, before burying it for being unmanly, and I think it's safe to say she was at least slightly tempted by Kat's lingerie as well.
Linking back to both the positive connotations thing and the above paragraph, you don't seem to be thinking about whether the person wearing women's clothes would enjoy it themselves or not, just the reactions of others, we have an example of Natani having literal fantasies about wearing pink dresses (pre mindscape, even) whereas Keith has shown no interest in girly things in the comic, and even in the dumb noncanon side sketches where Keith is put in girls clothes he is hating it more often than not.
You raised a good point about Keith's behaviour reassuring Natani that said behaviour isn't unmanly (though In my opinion cross-dressing is actually pretty damn unmanly unless the man in question has a woman's body) but again you seem to be thinking of this only in terms of Natani - Natani is masculine yes, but why should portraying that be conjoined to Keith being portrayed as unmasculine or submissive?
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
Natani is suggesting to Zen how to get laid in style (because of Keith/Zen dynamics that get expanded on later.) Zen elects not to, because of the greater context.
There's some irony in that if that scene had ensued, Keith would have probably played it fairly aggressively.
How to get laid in style, by asserting his dominance over Keith and challenging him to prove him wrong. Fairly harmless on it's own, but when it's added to the other moments it just contributes to the ''Zen&Nat outrank Keith'' pile. Keith playing the hypothetical ensuing scene aggressively is a moot point because it would only come about as a result of a somewhat demeaning act from Zen.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pmThe line is "No change to my orders, then?" Keith is about to set out to do something that the wolves convinced him to try. He's checking to make sure they haven't changed their minds.
He also uses the phrase "Instructed at great length" later to describe the same set of circumstances, but if it isn't immediately obvious that he's being largely ironic, it eventually becomes very clear that their discussion was anything but unilateral.
I'll get back to you, probably in the EP thread proper when i'm done with that series. But this is just the issue, so far it seems to me like your version of Natani would be okay with giving Keith real orders, and canon Natani wouldn't.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
Not only are you stretching, you're leaving out things like Keith telling Natani "Now lie down! Hands behind your head! [censored] on the ground at all times.", when he gets a little too frisky.
I acknowledged that it was restrained and that I didn't think it was intentional, but one Keith dominant moment (and that's ignoring the context of the scene) doesn't balance out three or four submissive moments. Maybe my interpretation of these things really is poor, but if the story is giving an impression that wasn't intentional then there might be an issue with it.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
Neither of those things is true. I even checked the first edition, just in case. Neither of those things has ever been true.
Yeah, I had misremembered. I think the eye contact thing might have been me misremembering him ogling Natani as she stretched and warmed up, even. But still, he is dreading the encounter (in an ''I am gonna get hurt'' kind of way) and even described as a punching bag, and Natani doesn't seem to be thinking about his well-being in the slightest during the fight, if she was really outclassing him as much as you describe she should be well aware of how easily she can cause him serious damage by now and realise when she is going too far. The insinuation she didn't trust herself not to blast him with a spell point blank or whatever was really grating as well, Natani may be very hot headed but she thinks enough of Keith not to do that to him, especially this far in the future.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
Agreed. But then, (Knot) Too Late was released in February 2016, two months before the mindscape sequence started. And contrary to popular misconception, I can't actually tell the future.
The canon anchor point for the EP series is during the time that Natani was out, because that's when it was started. It has quite largely remained canon-compatible so far, but Natani's wig out in Full House is an exception. (Strictly speaking it could still maybe play out now, but it's no longer realistic that it could play out that far in the future.)
Another thing that would make stuff play out differently is the recently introduced gatekeys, but that's not a character thing so the repercussions aren't terribly interesting.
I was aware it was written pre mindscape when I first read it, I still felt it was out of character for ~2013 Natani, let alone 2016 Nat.
I think viewing the mindscape as the source of her compassion/restraint in this case is a pretty bad read, anyway I would argue it was always apparent she would grow to be gentler/more caring as their relationship deepened. Examples include her worry and care for Keith when she finds him on the bridge after Alaric, and again after the Laura illusion. Hell, even just after summoning the Laura illusion, where she is visibly crying at the thought of losing him.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the gatekeys, PM me again if you feel it's too off topic for here though.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
Keith yields, yes, which Natani also notes he never does. But it was the only winning move, for both of them.
Stabbing himself in the heart was in no way save Natani, by the way. (Killing himself just leaves Natani with one less friend on an island of people who want him dead.) He just wanted out. It was a very low point for him.
It still feels like a moment where he is breaking character, and engineering a scenario to make him act out of character doesn't make it much easier to accept.
Surrendering seems to have been the only way to end the fight without offending EP-Natani, yeah, but he could also have simply told her enough was enough without submitting to her, and perhaps even told her she was being childish and letting her emotions get the better of her. Though I admit that last bit would probably lead to a domestic. (I'm being sarcastic, if it's not apparent)
''Save Natani'' was probably the wrong phrase, but he seemed to have only seen two options there, killing himself and killing Nat, and he chose the harder one, my point was he wasn't just choosing the easy way out, and he says so himself.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
They train, and sometimes they train hard. Injuries will happen. I'm not personally comfortable with how hard they can go at each other either, but it is what it is.
It's later established that they've both left Zen pretty far behind by that point. He's more interested in rolling around with intent than serious training, which I think shows good and proper judgement. But Keith and Natani have their reasons.
I can gather how you got the idea, but the shoe doesn't really fit. Finishing Full House would have probably addressed your concerns.
There is quite a jump from a black eye to ''Broken ribs and a bruised everything'', and even if you don't buy the restraint thing I mentioned above, let me repeat one of your points, if their bouts were as one sided as you describe in Full house, why are they even bothering?
Anyway, the characters own interactions might be less important than the overall writing choices here, you chose to have a scene which establishes very clearly that Natani>Keith physically, just like you chose to write a story where she collars Keith and makes him her sub, it isn't much of a stretch to see a common theme of ''Natani first'' in your works. I honestly do hope the rest of the the EP series do abate my opinions on the earlier parts, but it will take some doing, i'll let you know if it succeeds or not.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
Nat did throw him off, and they had a bit of a fight scene. And I agree that it ends quickly, but it's also armed vs unarmed, so I wouldn't put too much stock into it. (And on the other other hand, I don't think Keith ever seriously intended to kill him, and was largely just venting his frustration. So I don't think it's a good indicator of their relative strengths, for a variety of reasons.)
If there was anyone who was giving it their all in this encounter, it wasn't Keith. And the knife gave him an advantage sure, but if we assume Zen and Natani spent only one year between losing their parents and joining the assassins, she has been trained for
seven years at this point, she should be capable of fighting around it.
She did throw him off yes, and I acknowledged he's smaller and lighter than her in my first post, Natani will be able to throw him around and the like in ways he'll probably never be able to do to her, but that doesn't mean he's just blanket weaker than her. Conversely, if we assume Natani actually is using her full strength here, this fight has an example of Keith overpowering and
pinning her down, albeit briefly. Gonna revisit this later and discuss my thought on their skill and strength all at once.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
Agreed, it's these things (+ the natural magic resistance) that make basitins dangerous.
Yeah this is the thing, Natani being stronger than Keith would mean Wolf Keidran in general are stronger than Basitins, which to me doesn't make sense with the Templars statements on them being too dangerous to go to war with - they're willing to fight Wolves, but not Basitins, now if the Basitins were physically weaker, in addition to being unable to use magic, they'd be nearly completely inferior to Wolves when viewed as an opposing force, so the Templar would have no reason to fear them over the Wolves. Unless of course there are just a lot more Basitins than Wolves, or maybe their ports and towns are incredibly well defended, but I don't feel that's the case.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
I doubt the guard was anything special, for a few reasons.
1) If he was just a regular guard unrelated to Keith in specific, then he's someone who, in a meritocracy, is so unimportant that his job is to stand around all day.
2) If he was posted because of Keith, then he was probably posted by Alaric, just like Maddie was. Alaric was able to anticipate that Keith would go for the graveyard, and he would not have wanted to stop Keith from going there, so I doubt he would have deliberately set up a difficult obstacle.
3) If it was Alabaster instead, he's much more likely to underestimate Keith than overestimate him.
I don't think we know enough about Basitin culture to make statements like 1), seemingly all Basitin children join the military, and presumably a lot of them remain there. They don't have a war on at the moment, so even good soldiers likely have little to do besides guard duty. Alternatively, if a lot of them actually leave the military when they grow up, it stands to reason only the better soldiers would remain, which feeds into my point.
2) Is a good point, but an unlikely alternative is that Alaric may have actually wanted to test him, and the guard had been briefed on Keith and knew who he was and not to let him into the graveyard, so who posted him there and gave him his orders?
as for 3) if the guard was posted by Alabaster, underestimating Keith is exactly what he did.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
I think the magic wielding part already occurred with Seraphina: "Why.. Are you.. Rabbit-things.. So... hard to burn!?"
Though there is also my theory that basitins are naturally flame-retardant because their fur contains asbestos, and Natani will consequently die of cancer.
Anyway, it does raise some question about why Natani's immobilization spell was so effective. But... well, I would suggest that Keith wasn't exactly fighting it at that point. (He did unambiguously get blasted to the wall, though, and that's not nothing as far as magical effects go.)
Despite her obviously magical nature, I wouldn't class Seraphina as any kind of mage, she was just more like a brute who could generate fire, when I said I was interested to see Keith vs a magician, I was thinking more along of the lines of Keith's reactions to control spells and other smart uses of magic, not bland ''mage hurts enemy'' magic like fireballs.
Like I said over PM, the asbestos comment gave me a good laugh, but I don't feel she was actually commenting on how hard it was for Keith's fur to catch fire, just how well he was evading and parrying her fireballs, though we didn't get a good view of their fight.
We don't know too much about how magic works in Twokinds to read into this last point I feel, Natani might have blasted Keith with everything she had while casting that spell, which seems an appropriate reaction given what he was trying to do, I do seem to remember she commented on being low on reserves later that night.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
This is a pretty multifaceted topic.
1) I don't think either of them is well-trained for physical fighting at the current time. As you note, Keith's training was interrupted (and he was also never particularly well-suited to it as a youth.) Meanwhile, Natani is less physical based, and Keith comments on his fighting style being inferior. (Which I don't think is just snobbishness, because Keith isn't exactly a basitin supremacist, and physical prowess is indeed the basitins' wheelhouse.) And so, I don't think either of them is necessarily anywhere close to their potential.
2) A bit of a personal read, but I think Natani is misclassed in the comic. Him trying to do anything stealthy is a running gag. His assassination technique leaves a lot to be desired. And meanwhile, he's at his best when things are literally on fire. Basically, I think he's playing to his weaknesses, in a way that's parallel to his struggles with his identity, and he's ultimately much better suited to be something like a battlemage. So you could say I'm anticipating the shift in Natani's perspective to be accompanied with a boost in combat ability, and that's accounted for in EP.
3) Basitins are proportionally very strong, yes. But Keith and Natani still have, in boxing terms, something like 5-7 weight classes between them. Natani lifting Keith looks like this. Keith lifting Natani looks like this. Keith has commented on Natani's freakish wolf strength. Strength in the sense of pure brawn actually isn't mentioned in the Full House scene; Keith notes the differentiating factors between them as speed (slight advantage Keith), technique (slight advantage Keith), and reach (hello, Natani), and that's because it isn't that big of a deal between them; they can both hit plenty hard. I do think Nat would be stronger in pure 'do you even lift' numbers, though. And even even if they lifted the same, Keith wouldn't be winning for example a wrestling match between them. (Unless he won with technique.) He doesn't have the mass for it.
To start with, I want to say I do agree Natani's forte will probably be magic, fans seem to underestimate her skill at magic a lot from what I've seen, after all she did accidentally create a spell that seemingly guarantees the death of whoever it's cast on, given enough time. But I don't see how this change in Natani's thinking will translate to fighting ability, especially given that she wasn't using magic at all in that Full house fight.
I considered perhaps you meant she fights rather aggressively at the moment and a shift to a more controlled defensive style might benefit her, but she was already fighting Keith defensively in the inn fight and she lost that very quickly, and like I said above I feel she was giving at least as much to that fight as Keith was.
For 1) I agree that they're both probably pretty far from their potentials in terms of skill, but I feel it's worth pointing out that
Natani seems to be about as strong (that is, as physically muscular) as she can realistically get, whereas Keith is
toned, sure, but still kind of skinny, he was depicted as even skinnier just a few years ago, honestly i'm surprised Tom chooses to draw him as muscular
as he does now, given he seems to have spent the last few years more or less homeless and presumably without a good amount of food. So it seems to me he could actually stand to get physically stronger as time goes on, and Natani can't, not that I think he particularly wants to.
For both 1) and 2) in relation to Natani, this is just more fuel for my points, she went through all the years of Training she did, and she still ended up being pretty damn incompetent, and it seems foolish to me to assume she'll get such an upgrade to her abilities by training herself/training with Keith, when a literal academy for assassins couldn't make her competent. She just doesn't seem to have the mindset for it, and Keith does.
You could argue her physical lack of skill is the fault of the schools teaching being shoddy (which seems a decent read given how easily Zen was dealt with by Red and Sythe, of all people, and he's supposedly the better of the two) and not Natani's fault, but that still leaves the idea she'd be able to teach herself better than they could as a little ludicrous. The gap will definitely shorten between Keith and Nat as time goes on, but surpassing him is something I don't see as being on the table, more on this below.
3) If we take Tom's charts and the like as canon, then Keith currently weighs less than 60 kilos, whereas Natani must be 95kg at the lowest, so yeah things like grapples and holds are presumably completely out of the question for him to use against her - if people were betting on them fighting and didn't know much about Basitins, then Natani winning would seem like such a no-brainer it would be funny. And that's part of my point, he has all these apparent disadvantages and he still beats her. Natani is strong because of her size, Keith is strong despite it.
Funny that you should choose the ''Wolf lifting'' sketch as an argument here, given that the whole theme of that picture is that Keith is stronger than people give him credit for, even Natani. And again when Natani is picking up Keith, she's lifting somewhere around 60% of her body weight, for Keith it's more like 160% of his, minimum, also people can push a lot less weight above their heads than they can ''pick up'' to their chest the way Natani does, not that he isn't struggling.
And actually Full house does mention Natani was winning through ''Overwhelming strength'' and given that she picks him up with one hand and punches him hard enough to break his ribs and damage the wall behind him, it would be apparent your version of her was much stronger than him even if that first line didn't exist. You also seem to be underestimating Keith's toughness (as in, resilience) as well as his strength, he was
taking hits from Alaric that cracked the bridge beneath him (admittedly a pretty anime-esque and unrealistic thing, but it is canon nonetheless) and still remained strong enough to shatter said bridge himself, even after more damage. So like I said before i'm gonna go on believing Keith is the slightly stronger one of the two, partly because all the physical stuff we've seen from Keith before, like fighting with an arrow wound and defeating Alaric become kind of irrelevant if he is weaker than her.
Another thing I'd challenge you to think about is this, if Natani is both stronger than Keith and has the potential to become a better fighter, then Keith becomes essentially worthless compared to her in any combat situation, magic resistance is beaten by the ability to use magic every time and she would now be better suited than him to every close quarters situation. His only worth to the group is now as a polyglot and an ambassador/politician, which he
really doesn't want to be.
I also wouldn't read too much into that freakish wolf strength statement, it's entirely possible Keith was being silly and even if he wasn't, strength is relative, and he proves he's too weakened even to stand on his own just a few seconds later.
Another point I made you seem to be overlooking is that Keith has actually beaten ''better'' fighters before, like with Alaric and that one guard, and I feel it's a disservice to the character to just be writing him off as the loser in his bouts with Natani because you think she is/she would be better on paper.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
The Seraphina fight is what caused me to re-evaluate my previous impression of Keith's combat ability, yeah. I have since come to think that that particular fight was mostly to do with his mental state, but I do still have Keith downgraded from what I thought previously, because in retrospect I felt I'd been overly optimistic. But like I said, still the strongest in the groups.
But speaking of Keith's mental state, yeah, Keith was -- and still is -- in a bad way in the comic. And that's got me pretty concerned, because when is he ever really going to get to relax? He did have that lovely evening with Natani, and a good night's sleep, both of which doubtless helped a lot. But then the following day, he's already had three scares before lunch. And that bit with Red is a good show of how frazzled Keith still is; Red threatens to draw, and Keith puts a sword to his throat. He's on edge.
Keith's had a really, really [censored] time ever since they arrived on the island, with only brief respites. It generally doesn't take this lot very long to get thrust into some kind of new disaster, so... when's he gonna have time to unwind?
What about Zen (with all limbs intact) then? You seem to think Natani and Keith are rather close in combat ability already, and Natani says Zen is considerably more skilled than she is, he's also bigger than she is, hence even more of a reach and strength advantage over Keith.
Is it bad that I feel Keith was actually pretty justified in pulling his sword on Red? Keith already knew he an edgy bully, and very racist to non Humans. He saw Red was going to draw his weapon, and Keith just beat him to punch.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
I'm interpreting wolf culture, without Twokinds' PG-13 filter. And yeah, it's shocking, because it's tonally so wrong. (Which is the rest of the reason AHR is messed up; it's not written like it was Twokinds.)
Note that Keith has qualifiers, though. There are reservations in what he says. But yes, he's willing to get on that rollercoaster, if that's what it takes.
The bad parts of ''Wolf culture'' are pretty much personified in Clovis, and Natani has made it abundantly clear
what she thinks of him. Even if you buy that her particular upbringing was just as sexist and domineering as Clovis' (which I feel is very unlikely given how laid back Zen is about women) then this rough and disrespectful treatment of Keith is just not who Natani is. I don't think there is a single page which implies she gets enjoyment out of dominating people, let alone Keith, or even wants to do it. Tom would have portrayed it by now if she did, he has no problem committing boner jokes and impalement to his pages. And for what it's worth Natani is practically an outcast from wolf society at the moment, I don't think she's bothered with fitting in with people who are like Clovis' lackeys, nor do I see her sharing their opinions on relationships in the slightest.
If the intention was for the story to give off a shocking tone then, like with the collar being 'jokey' i'm afraid you've failed. The only tone that's apparent in AHR is a bit of a sad one when it comes to the status of Keith and Natani's relationship, and her unhappiness and insecurities about her body.
AHR's Keith has his reservations, mostly about committing to becoming her sub (this one is done with very quickly, bear in mind) and with Natani's rough treatment of him, but not really with being submissive to her in general. In fact he is enjoying her dominance over him, and that's out of character.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
He certainly doesn't hate it, or the things he's experiencing, yeah.
Well that is where we differ on Keith, I don't think he would ever get enjoyment from being dominated by another person, no matter what set of scenarios he goes through.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
I feel like people who are big into dom/sub would kinda scoff at it, but yeah, there are definitely those sorts of elements in it.
I'm mostly just making the point that it doesn't signify him as a pet or property, both of which are words that you used.
I don't think the fact other people take dom/sub further that Keith and Natani do here is at all relevant, it's still being done and is a part of their relationship in this fic. I would also argue the dom/sub dynamic is pretty much the defining part of this fic, not just an element.
I feel the dom/sub stuff is a lot more severe than you seem to be giving it credit for, which I don't think you should overlook either, but that point was more about Keith's mentality about the whole dynamic than anything else, and yes he is a willing sub to Natani, and yes gets a thrill from thinking about showing off this aspect of their relationship (and his collar) to Trace and Flora, before deciding it was too new to flaunt.
I put pet and property in airmarks which means you probably shouldn't read into it too much, but let's not pretend a collar doesn't have some pretty heavy connotations for where a relationship built around domination is heading. If the events of AHR are the entry level of Keith and Natani's ''fetish'' then where is it heading down the road?
In your first response post to me you seemed to be saying that the dom/sub aspect wasn't that prevalent and that Keith and Natani weren't acting too out of character, and now you seem to be arguing just that it isn't that severe and there isn't a problem with their relationship here, so are you accepting that you have pretty drastically changed their characters to make room for this submission thing?
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
In conclusion, unlikely to be something he'd get off on.
I'm glad you agree.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
Whatever he is in panel 1, it isn't unperturbed. There's a degree of awkwardness there.
And note that when he blushes, he isn't ogling Natani either. (And Nat is facing away anyway.) I think a lot of his reaction is embarrassment for Natani's sake, since he expects it to be a bigger deal than it turns out to be.
Oh it's definitely a fairly awkward situation, even if Natani herself doesn't seem to think so, but my point was if he did find ''male'' Natani attractive he would probably have been blushing and acting as awkwardly as he does after she changes back to female, and not just continued looking at her.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
But on the other hand, this could also be closet-case behaviour. This, too, is a pretty strong reaction for someone who's Just Not Into That. Consider also that being gay is pretty clearly not something you're supposed to be in the Twokinds world. It's some degree of taboo.
Natani also struggled with whether a guy can have feelings for a guy. (Because if can't, then those feelings must be feminine, and thus bad; but if can, then -> kiss the hell out of Keith. And he did end up kissing the hell out of Keith, so I think he found his answer, and if Keith truly has been thinking of Natani in masculine terms, then it would follow that he found his answer too.)
Note also that after that, Keith wants to make them official. He isn't expecting to out Natani, so that means he's ready to be publicly gay. Which then happens, and while he looks awkward, he very specifically didn't end the tail touch before getting Maddie's attention.
Goes without saying that I have no reason to doubt Keith's feelings for Laura, and he's been bothered by Flora before, so strictly gay is out. But I don't think bi would be incredibly surprising. And if so, it's not hard to argue that being with Natani could help to open his mind.
For the Alaric bathing scene, I've always considered the logic of ''he denied being gay, so he must be gay!'' to be kind of childish. At any rate, if we assume that feet are actually sexual to Basitins, (which i'm not convinced is a certain thing especially given that Alaric says he used that particular move on Keith when they were kids) then realise there are only two parts of their bodies that Keith and Alaric are electing to keep covered here: their feet and their genitals, what Alaric did is basically the equivalent of touching the inside of Keith's hip out of nowhere, except he was also using an erogenous zone to touch him. I think Keith's reaction was justified, even if we ignore how prudish and inexperienced Keith is, and how prudish Basitins are in general.
Also not really relevant but I don't think Alaric being gay is an open and shut case either, he might have just really enjoyed pushing people out of their comfort zone, easily done in Basitin society, and he did appear to have at least one female statue in that stone carving room of his.
As for Natani's feelings, I think it's a bad read to jump to the conclusions that her feelings for Keith are ''masculine''. During the earlier chapters of twokinds she is dismissive of all her feminine feelings and reacts very angrily whenever they crop up, a very unhealthy and self destructive attitude, and a lot of her development has been about accepting both the feminine and masculine parts of herself, Youngtani herself urges her to do this and I think this example is another extension of that, Natani even addresses that she doesn't know if her feelings are okay or not in the washroom, something she wouldn't need to say if she thought they were completely masculine. I also think accepting that her feelings may be in part feminine makes her relationship with Keith that much more poignant, because as you said, admitting her feelings was something that is hard for her and takes her out of her comfort zone.
Keith has probably been viewing her as a man, sure, but he
says himself that he feels the reason his first kiss to her was lacklustre was precisely because he has been viewing her as a man, and I don't think he's going to be dishonest with himself about this. Even if he does think of Natani as being 100% mentally male, you'd be hard pressed to ever categorise a man's (physical) attraction to the opposite sex as ''gay''.
And no, Keith was not asking to go public with their relationship there, he just wanted to know where they stood. I wouldn't put much stock into him not trying to hide the relationship from the others, they don't mean as much to him as Natani, and I doubt he really cares too much what they think about him at this point.
I would be surprised by him being outed as legitimately bi, I think his character already leans very heavily towards exclusively straight, but I think we'll never get a straight answer and it's been left unsaid so that people can interpret him as bi if they want to, nothing more.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
This just doesn't work. Natani doesn't ask Keith to pretend he's got a different body, he's asking Keith to pretend he doesn't know, and Keith's answer directly addresses the question. Even if Natani had posed that particular question, I think Keith would have been non-comittal, whatever he felt. As you say below, Keith doesn't push Natani either way on the issue. Or as he says in AHR, "I can't say that you shouldn't be happy in your body any more than I can say that you should be." He would focus on the 'you are you' aspect.
I think it works fine, she is asking him if he didn't know that she had a female body, meaning that he still thought she had a mans body, and Keith's answer, while non committal, implies it would probably be a lot less likely. His answer also implies that he finds the idea of men kissing men pretty damn out of the ordinary, and I don't feel there is anything to suggest he's lying to himself or to Natani.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
I didn't believe the feminine interpretation for a second when the page originally ran, and I believe it even less now, because Youngtani wouldn't have bristled at 'one of the guys' either. It's purely a compliment.
Also, the background is yellow, for surprise, rather than pink for 'feminine thought alert'.
Decent points, and it's not terribly relevant but Natani does seem to legitimately enjoy people (or at least Keith)
finding her body attractive and it's a bit of personal and unlikely read, but I feel Keith's statement that he viewed her as a guy may have stripped her of that feeling of attractiveness for a minute. I don't feel it had much to do with her kissing him though, though maybe it had something to with her offer in the mansion bedroom - to reassert that Keith did still find her hot.
I don't put too much stock in the background colours, but if I did i'd point out that Natani's eventual kiss with Keith in the washroom features a very feminine colour, and Natani is even framed with long flowing hair like you'd typically expect to see from a woman in that kind of imagery.
amenon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:13 pm
This has slain me; I am slain. No regrets, though. But if we keep this going, I'm going to reserve at least a week for my next reply.
Well i'm with you there, it will probably be some time before I reply again as well.