Comic for November 12th, 2023 | Raine Rebels

[Esn]

His "good" traits if you can even call them that, are completely overshadowed by the many questionable decisions he's made. Why would he willingly allow Rose to die, and not even so much as try to help her, if he truly cared about her?

If you're talking about when Rose was young - I see no reason to disbelieve what he told Mary later - that he saw it as a trap set by Sirus, and couldn't figure a way out. If he'd said she was his sister, he probably would've been killed himself and wouldn't have saved her anyway.

If you mean just now, why didn't he save older Rose - it was implied (by both Euchre and Rose herself, earlier) that the manor's defenses prevented him from entering uninvited while the power source was still up, and would have turned him into a chicken.

Clovis was able to avoid that when he broke in, but only because he had a super-powerful magical artifact that temporarily made him more powerful than a dragon.

Why would he willing join Trace's coop, knowing full well what would happen to Mary?

Raine DID say that he soon rescued them from slavery after he helped Trace, though. Now, that could also be interpreted as him "hedging his bets" (saving Mary in case he needs an ally against Trace later, while having Trace believe he was on his side), but still.

Why does he want Raine to remain powerless? Who's the next person to end up being manipulated by him?

I expect the comic will answer that in due time...

Funny enough, the only character that seems to have Euchre completely figured out from head to toe, and the one who seems to actually get on Euchre's nerves, is Sirius, who ironically is also a character that we know practically nothing about.

DOES Sirus get on Euchre's nerves though? I haven't seen any evidence of that. In Trace's flashback on the 20th anniversary image, we saw Euchre standing next to Sirus saying "we work well together".

Although, we HAVE seen Sirus quite clearly cause Euchre distress when he manipulated him into having to choose between his sister's life and revealing his identity.

I agree that we don't know very much about Sirus, but we still know something. We know that, up to now, in fact ever since the very beginning of the comic, he's always intervened on New Trace's side. Euchre also agreed with this when he told Rose that Sirus was an ally, "for now". We also know that on at least one occasion he's done this in a really evil and uncalled-for way (gruesomely killing the Basitin "Muscle" general, who actually seemed like a decent sort, because he was in the way of where Trace's friends "needed to be"), and of course we know that he's the one who created the situation with Rose, and argued with Mary AGAINST letting her live.

For all that he's on the "good" side for mysterious reasons of his own, he seems clearly like a way worse person than Euchre. Euchre is manipulative and self-serving, but likes to present a kind demeanor and tries to neutralize any evil effects of things he's done (even if it's just his way of "hedging his bets" as he calls it). But Sirus, when he sees no reason NOT to, likes to outright cause others pain.

[allanpike]

That's just it though. Tom has outright said what kind of person Euchre is

There's a little concept called 'Death of the Author'. Tom might think that he's showing Euchre as a manipulative mastermind who is 100% selfish and egotistical and the only interest they have in others is what benefit they might be for them. But that's not what I'm seeing. That is not what I'm seeing when I read this webcomic, looking Euchre's actions, looking at his expressions and body language, and looking at the actions he has taken outside of the webcomic and some of the important scenes Tom has drawn elsewhere.

There's also the fact that those who do know him personally, have stated quite clearly he isn't to be trusted.

Pretty sure Flora still trusts him, and she knows him very personally.

Help his cousin and out himself in the process, or let his cousin die so his secret is safe?

You mean 'Help his cousin out on the risk that they both die in the process or let his cousin die because he can help people with the position he has?' Euche was the one to rescue Flora after all, who knows how many other slaves he has helped over the years? Saying that Euche was willing to let Rose die to keep his secret safe eliminates a lot of nuance of the situation. And more importantly, why do people always ignore the fact that the Templar were going to execute Rose on the possibility of being a spy and that Mary had no issues with that at all? Its only Euche' reaction that made her step in. Yet people don't seem to call Mary evil.

Gets found out by Mary and kicked out the Academy? Joins Trace in his coop, becomes the master strategist, and Mary's life gets ruined in the process.

I don't remember Euche getting kicked out of the Academy? And furthermore, Trace was going to launch his coop regardless. Euche's action saved Mary and Raine's life.

Gives Raine a new magic suppressor so she remains humans? All of that was playing into his scheme, and there's the fact he's doing this in secret.

And he openly admits to it and doesn't force her too, giving her the choice.

You kind of get the idea.

Yeah, I do. And it's that you see Euche as a big bad evil villain and paint his actions in the worst possible light. While I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. To point out that it is not as simple and straightforward as you seem to think it is. Every 'questionable' descsion we've seen him make has other factors at play that make it a complicated situation, most of the time where there is no right or wrong answer. And that is what makes him so interesting to me.

And why it is so frustrating to me that people point him as a villian.
[/quote]

[Eclipse]

There's a little concept called 'Death of the Author'. Tom might think that he's showing Euchre as a manipulative mastermind who is 100% selfish and egotistical and the only interest they have in others is what benefit they might be for them. But that's not what I'm seeing. That is not what I'm seeing when I read this webcomic, looking Euchre's actions, looking at his expressions and body language, and looking at the actions he has taken outside of the webcomic and some of the important scenes Tom has drawn elsewhere.

It's an act, and you're getting drawn into it. Euchre is a master of manipulation, he knows exactly how to come across to get what he wants. You can't just look at his words, expressions, and body language, you have to look at the consistency of all of his actions. And his actions don't really consistently say that he's a good person, a good person doesn't do things such as fail to say anything and walk away when your family is about to be executed or join Magic Hitler in his coup.

Pretty sure Flora still trusts him, and she knows him very personally.

Flora does not seem to know that he has the ability of Perfect Transformation to disguise himself as a human or that he's the Master Strategist, or any of the story associated with that knowledge. That's what Strongfang means by "knows him personally", they're talking about the people that know both sides of his identity and his full history.

You mean 'Help his cousin out on the risk that they both die in the process or let his cousin die because he can help people with the position he has?'

There could've been ways he secretly help her without exposing her secret. He could've requested an interrogation and help her escape. Hell he could've asked Mary for help himself, he surely knew her well enough by then to assess if she was racist against Keidran by then.

Euche was the one to rescue Flora after all, who knows how many other slaves he has helped over the years?

And how many more has he hurt by assisting Trace with his coup?

Saying that Euche was willing to let Rose die to keep his secret safe eliminates a lot of nuance of the situation. And more importantly, why do people always ignore the fact that the Templar were going to execute Rose on the possibility of being a spy and that Mary had no issues with that at all? Its only Euche' reaction that made her step in. Yet people don't seem to call Mary evil.

Did she though? She never expressed approval for Rose's execution, she started questioning it as soon as she found out. That shows more that Mary was unsure from the very beginning and wanted to understand the situation further before going through with it. That's not a callous disregard for Rose's life like Euchre's.

And furthermore, Trace was going to launch his coop regardless. Euche's action saved Mary and Raine's life.

Again, Mary and Raine's life vs. who knows how many others that died because he specifically helped Trace. Euchre didn't save them because he's against slavery and murder against his own kind, he saved them out of guilt for what he did to them and because they're very powerful mages.

And he openly admits to it and doesn't force her too, giving her the choice.

Yes, but now he's encouraging her to master Perfect Transformation in her own way. Is that really out of the goodness of his heart or just a Plan B to have a hybrid supermage in his back pocket?

Yeah, I do. And it's that you see Euche as a big bad evil villain and paint his actions in the worst possible light. While I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. To point out that it is not as simple and straightforward as you seem to think it is. Every 'questionable' descsion we've seen him make has other factors at play that make it a complicated situation, most of the time where there is no right or wrong answer. And that is what makes him so interesting to me.

And why it is so frustrating to me that people point him as a villian.

At best Rose's execution might be, but I still think there were other solutions that Euchre didn't consider. Other than that, it's not complicated. Trace's coup... is just about as evil as it gets. There's no morally right way to handle it other than opposing him, any kind of assistance you would give him results in more death, destruction, and slavery.

[Bellhead]

Stuff about Euchre

There are a few ways to look at his actions, both on and off screen, but the only thing that remains steadfast consistent is that he is, first and foremost, a manipulator. Not a protector, not a guardian, not some dark hero seeking redemption. A manipulator. We don't know his true intentions, we don't know his end goal, we don't know his motivations for any of his actions besides saving Flora back in chapter 6. Literally everything else he's done since has been some form of manipulation, with no clear underlying goal.

He was the MASTER STRATEGIST, for Pete's sake. That's literally his job. But even before that, he knew of Trace, and what he was capable of. Surely he knew what would happen to the world if Trace attempted his coup, yet he showed no signs of stopping him, and ended up becoming a highly trusted member of his inner circle. You don't get a position like that if you're undermining his agenda and trying to stop him from killing people, even in the most subtle of ways.

Now, all of you have brought up the Mary-Rose-Euchre debacle, so I'll add my own two cents too. Look closely. He was slightly surprised initially, followed by sadness and acceptance, in Mary's presence. If he actually had any desire to save her, we would have at least seen him concentrate. At the very least, he could have looked to Mary, but he didn't even do that. Trap or not, there were any number of things he could have said to at least delay the proceedings, and chose not to. That wasn't a tactical decision to save "as many lives as possible". That was a "save my own skin" moment.

And since I know somebody's going to be thinking it, yeah. I get it. He needed to be in Trace's good graces to know what he was doing. But there's definitely a line you don't cross, even under those conditions, and he definitely crossed it. His position alone means he was pretty good at what he did, and for that kind of reception, he had to have a hand in some pretty nasty dealings. Whether they went the way Trace wanted or not in the end is up for debate, since we haven't seen even a single event like that, but the bulk must have been successful, and with a substantial amount of suffering inflicted. He might not be true evil, but he is FAR from being any semblance of "good".

[Warrl]

You mean 'Help his cousin out on the risk that they both die in the process or let his cousin die because he can help people with the position he has?'

There could've been ways he secretly help her without exposing her secret. He could've requested an interrogation and help her escape.

Heck, he could have OPENLY helped her by mentioning (in the Human tongue) that she was one of his family's more-trusted slaves. Which gives him an excuse for knowing a bit of the Keidran language, although probably not for being fluent in it. Then talk with her briefly, in deliberately-badly-pronounced Keidran, to learn why she came after him. Which, if I recall correctly, was that his mother was dying. Thus providing him with a good reason to take possession of her and leave for a while.

(Also he'd growl softly in her ear at some point, 'You're my slave - play along until we're out of here, or you might get both of us killed.')

[Eclipse]

There are a few ways to look at his actions, both on and off screen, but the only thing that remains steadfast consistent is that he is, first and foremost, a manipulator. Not a protector, not a guardian, not some dark hero seeking redemption. A manipulator. We don't know his true intentions, we don't know his end goal, we don't know his motivations for any of his actions besides saving Flora back in chapter 6. Literally everything else he's done since has been some form of manipulation, with no clear underlying goal.

He was the MASTER STRATEGIST, for Pete's sake. That's literally his job. But even before that, he knew of Trace, and what he was capable of. Surely he knew what would happen to the world if Trace attempted his coup, yet he showed no signs of stopping him, and ended up becoming a highly trusted member of his inner circle. You don't get a position like that if you're undermining his agenda and trying to stop him from killing people, even in the most subtle of ways.

Now, all of you have brought up the Mary-Rose-Euchre debacle, so I'll add my own two cents too. Look closely. He was slightly surprised initially, followed by sadness and acceptance, in Mary's presence. If he actually had any desire to save her, we would have at least seen him concentrate. At the very least, he could have looked to Mary, but he didn't even do that. Trap or not, there were any number of things he could have said to at least delay the proceedings, and chose not to. That wasn't a tactical decision to save "as many lives as possible". That was a "save my own skin" moment.

And since I know somebody's going to be thinking it, yeah. I get it. He needed to be in Trace's good graces to know what he was doing. But there's definitely a line you don't cross, even under those conditions, and he definitely crossed it. His position alone means he was pretty good at what he did, and for that kind of reception, he had to have a hand in some pretty nasty dealings. Whether they went the way Trace wanted or not in the end is up for debate, since we haven't seen even a single event like that, but the bulk must have been successful, and with a substantial amount of suffering inflicted. He might not be true evil, but he is FAR from being any semblance of "good".

Exactly. I just cannot wrap my head around how people can look at him being part of Trace's inner circle and think "Nah, he's not a bad person, he must have saved a bunch of people". Trace would not have promoted him in the first place if he didn't feel like he was a loyal and effective manipulator. In fact, if Trace were to sense that he was working against him, not only would he not have promoted Euchre, but he would've killed him without a second thought. It's bad enough in Trace's eyes that he's a Keidran (and really this is the one part that makes the least sense, why Trace even bothered admitting a Keidran into his inner circle when his coup was entirely aimed at exterminating and enslaving them), being a Keidran and a traitor? We saw what Sirus was willing to do to Rose when he was suspicious she was a spy, Trace would be even less merciful. And it's highly unlikely that someone as cowardly as Euchre, who immediately noped himself away from Rose's execution to save his own skin, would risk it freeing Keidran left and right under Trace's nose.

[Esn]

We saw what Sirus was willing to do to Rose when he was suspicious she was a spy,

Sirus pretty obviously already knew who Rose was, though (see his line "
imagine what kind of things we might learn" - he was taunting Euchre. If he hadn't already known exactly who she was, there's no way he wouldn't have interrogated her after he heard her say Euchre's name).
Also, I don't buy the notion that he couldn't understand Keidran, though it seems that's what Sirus wanted Mary to believe.

Edit: Hmm... the Sirus ref sheet may be kinda relevant:
https://www.patreon.com/posts/sirus-ref-sheet-62516312

[allanpike]

It's an act, and you're getting drawn into it. Euchre is a master of manipulation, he knows exactly how to come across to get what he wants. You can't just look at his words, expressions, and body language, you have to look at the consistency of all of his actions. And his actions don't really consistently say that he's a good person, a good person doesn't do things such as fail to say anything and walk away when your family is about to be executed or join Magic Hitler in his coup.

Ah yes, we need to look at the consistency of his actions. Like say, not wanting to watch his family be executed because he doesn't feel like there is anything he can do. Or joining Magic Hitler in a coup so you can keep your lover and daughter alive and because the coup is likely going to go ahead anyway, so you might as well make sure you can survive and be in a position to free those you love, even if they don't trust you.

Flora does not seem to know that he has the ability of Perfect Transformation to disguise himself as a human or that he's the Master Strategist, or any of the story associated with that knowledge. That's what Strongfang means by "knows him personally", they're talking about the people that know both sides of his identity and his full history.

And yet those are the people who are the most biased as well, and therefore are not a reliable source of information anymore than Flora herself might be due to not knowing his full story.

There could've been ways he secretly help her without exposing her secret. He could've requested an interrogation and help her escape. Hell he could've asked Mary for help himself, he surely knew her well enough by then to assess if she was racist against Keidran by then.

And as Esen points out by linking to Sirus' ref sheet. If Euche had tried to help Rose, Sirus would have revealed Euche immediately and put both of them in danger. It was a lose-lose situation.

And how many more has he hurt by assisting Trace with his coup?

I doubt that Euche's aid made a significant difference.

Did she though? She never expressed approval for Rose's execution, she started questioning it as soon as she found out. That shows more that Mary was unsure from the very beginning and wanted to understand the situation further before going through with it. That's not a callous disregard for Rose's life like Euchre's.

Oh yes, because Mary is given the benefit of the doubt, but Euchre is not? How fair. How fair.

Again, Mary and Raine's life vs. who knows how many others that died because he specifically helped Trace. Euchre didn't save them because he's against slavery and murder against his own kind, he saved them out of guilt for what he did to them and because they're very powerful mages.

Or he helped them because he still loved Mary and saw Raine as his daughter, and not out of guilt? And not to mention they aren't his own kind? Plus, again, we don't have any information that says 'If not for Euchre's aid then Trace's coup would have failed'.

Yes, but now he's encouraging her to master Perfect Transformation in her own way. Is that really out of the goodness of his heart or just a Plan B to have a hybrid supermage in his back pocket?

Probably a bit of both?

At best Rose's execution might be, but I still think there were other solutions that Euchre didn't consider. Other than that, it's not complicated. Trace's coup... is just about as evil as it gets. There's no morally right way to handle it other than opposing him, any kind of assistance you would give him results in more death, destruction, and slavery.

You keep saying that, ignoring the fact that it gave Euchre more power and influence than he would have got otherwise. What is more evil? Giving help to a coup that is likely going to happen, to give yourself a position of power to actually help people from there on. Or to fight and fail against the coup, and be able to help only a fraction more people afterwards?

[InspectorFox]

Made an account to toss my two cents into the discussion (and also because I've followed the comic discussion board for well over a year at this point and have been meaning to do so).

I can understand being torn about Euchre's nature, as he's very explicitly not characterized as completely villainous (ie. Clovis) and not completely good (ie. New Trace). I think the breaking point for me when it came to whether I'd consider him more bad or more good came down to the Rose decision, as I imagine is the case for most people. While I could empathize with the difficulty of the situation he was in, Euchre still willingly chose to ignore Rose's pleas and, were it not for Mary, would have let her be killed to save his secrets. If any character in media willfully chooses to sacrifice someone they love as they are begging for aid to save their own hide (regardless of whether they are planning to achieve far greater good in return), we would normally view them as cowardly, at the very least. Certainly not someone who we would generally look up to or root for.

"The ends justify the means" doesn't only apply to characters that choose it out of callous disregard, and Euchre showing remorse about Rose when he believed she would be hung does not remove the cruelty of his inaction. He could have taken steps to save her or buy time, but he would have had to reveal or weaken his scheme to do so, and thusly didn't even consider saving her was an option. He was already grieving while she was still standing on the gallows, still very much savable.

I believe this is why he normally gets labeled as "more bad than good". He may or may not have good intentions in the long run (we don't really have any idea what his long term goals even are still), but so far he seems to be choosing to help only when convenient for his plans. I do believe he genuinely wants to do good, but has either convinced himself to believe he's locked on his current path or that the end result will have been worth its weight in the blood that's already been shed.

Either way, I find it interesting that, much like the characters in the comic, we ourselves can't really point to whether he's going to be more of a villain or more of a hero in the end. My personal guess is that he'll come to a time when he has to make a similar decision of staying inactive or breaking his secrecy to save someone (likely Raine), and will undergo some redemption by following through with it this time.

Anywho, long winded post over. I always enjoy reading everyone's discussions here.

[Bellhead]

At best Rose's execution might be, but I still think there were other solutions that Euchre didn't consider. Other than that, it's not complicated. Trace's coup... is just about as evil as it gets. There's no morally right way to handle it other than opposing him, any kind of assistance you would give him results in more death, destruction, and slavery.

You keep saying that, ignoring the fact that it gave Euchre more power and influence than he would have got otherwise. What is more evil? Giving help to a coup that is likely going to happen, to give yourself a position of power to actually help people from there on. Or to fight and fail against the coup, and be able to help only a fraction more people afterwards?

That's missing a very major point. He assisted Dark Trace to the point of being promoted to his inner circle. If he hadn't done a good enough job proving his loyalty to the cause, then at MOST he would be a backroom strategist reporting to somebody better, where he would still know enough to help his family, but that's not the case. Sometimes "ends justify the means" is acceptable reasoning, but for him, in this case, it's nothing more than an excuse. Sure, the coup was going to happen anyway, but he had the choice to help it with enough drive to be promoted to TRACE'S INNER CIRCLE, with all the nefarious and suffering-inflicting actions that would entail, or to help (or pretend to, anyway) from the shadows.

This wasn't an "ends will justify the means" tough decision to protect his family. This was a choice. One he stuck with, and as far as we know, is still a major part of.

[Eclipse]

And yet those are the people who are the most biased as well, and therefore are not a reliable source of information anymore than Flora herself might be due to not knowing his full story.

No, you have your priorities backwards when it comes to reliability of information. Completeness takes precedence here, lack of complete information can result in even bigger misjudgements than bias.

And as Esen points out by linking to Sirus' ref sheet. If Euche had tried to help Rose, Sirus would have revealed Euche immediately and put both of them in danger. It was a lose-lose situation.

Not necessarily, Euchre could've made up a convincing lie or gotten Mary to help.

I doubt that Euche's aid made a significant difference.

Like Bellhead said, there's no way he could've reached the position of Master Strategist if it didn't.

Oh yes, because Mary is given the benefit of the doubt, but Euchre is not? How fair. How fair.

Mary has more than the benefit of the doubt, she has concrete evidence that she disapproved in the form of verbal opposition/questioning. Euchre merely stayed silent and gave up, which is cowardly at best.

Or he helped them because he still loved Mary and saw Raine as his daughter, and not out of guilt? And not to mention they aren't his own kind? Plus, again, we don't have any information that says 'If not for Euchre's aid then Trace's coup would have failed'.

Euchre himself realizes that he's beyond the point of forgiveness. Doing it out of love would be pointless.

Probably a bit of both?

Well it's a bit early to conclude this for sure because we don't know where this plot thread is going, but given everything else I don't think so.

You keep saying that, ignoring the fact that it gave Euchre more power and influence than he would have got otherwise. What is more evil? Giving help to a coup that is likely going to happen, to give yourself a position of power to actually help people from there on. Or to fight and fail against the coup, and be able to help only a fraction more people afterwards?

Generally you don't make a deal with the devil like this, you don't want to give them any support whatsoever or you lose the moral high ground. Someone like Trace there's really no moral alternative other than fighting them tooth and nail.

[tony1695]

Given Brann's recent actions, I'd be more inclined to believe that there is little to no loyalty among the Inner Circle to any sort of unified ideology. The only one who came close was the Master Architect (at least I think it was him) who acted on the Basitin Isles to bring Trace back to the mainland to have his memories restored. Even Tom's brief overview of the Templar organisation mention that Trace's coup left many feeling that the Templars were a "ship without a rudder". With that in mind, it's not impossible to believe that Euchre was doing what he could where he could to mitigate the damage, possibly even sabotaging things where he could. And Trace was certainly not in what many would consider a stable mindspace during the whole affair either, or focused entirely on ruling the group properly, so Euchre might have had a lot more openings to act than under a more sane leader.

I'm not trying to defend Euchre, so much as maybe explain a little as to why so many want to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[allanpike]

Given Brann's recent actions, I'd be more inclined to believe that there is little to no loyalty among the Inner Circle to any sort of unified ideology. The only one who came close was the Master Architect (at least I think it was him) who acted on the Basitin Isles to bring Trace back to the mainland to have his memories restored. Even Tom's brief overview of the Templar organisation mention that Trace's coup left many feeling that the Templars were a "ship without a rudder". With that in mind, it's not impossible to believe that Euchre was doing what he could where he could to mitigate the damage, possibly even sabotaging things where he could. And Trace was certainly not in what many would consider a stable mindspace during the whole affair either, or focused entirely on ruling the group properly, so Euchre might have had a lot more openings to act than under a more sane leader.

Right, this is important to keep in mind. As well as the fact that Euchre is the overseer of finances and organisation. What better position is there to manipulate the numbers and make sure that they aren't quite adding up correctly? What position is better than this to manipulate people into a position to make sure the war efforts against the Keidran's are not as effective as Trace might have wished. Take into the fact that Euchre is a smart guy alongside the fact that Trace held an extremely volatile mindset at the time, far more focused on resurrecting his wife or murdering all Keidran's than matters such as running the Templars, and quite frankly, I think it is a reasonable assumption to make that Euchre did not have to commit any huge, grievous crimes in order to make himself High Templar during Trace's coup. Or at the very least, it cannot be simply assumed to be the case.

While I could empathize with the difficulty of the situation he was in, Euchre still willingly chose to ignore Rose's pleas and, were it not for Mary, would have let her be killed to save his secrets. If any character in media willfully chooses to sacrifice someone they love as they are begging for aid to save their own hide (regardless of whether they are planning to achieve far greater good in return), we would normally view them as cowardly, at the very least. Certainly not someone who we would generally look up to or root for.

"The ends justify the means" doesn't only apply to characters that choose it out of callous disregard, and Euchre showing remorse about Rose when he believed she would be hung does not remove the cruelty of his inaction. He could have taken steps to save her or buy time, but he would have had to reveal or weaken his scheme to do so, and thusly didn't even consider saving her was an option. He was already grieving while she was still standing on the gallows, still very much savable.

I mean, sometimes people just, don't see the options available to him. Maybe there was a way forward that would save Rose, but when Sirus is there, ready to reveal Euchre if he tries to save Rose, and with Euchre seeing very limited options otherwise (trying to run could lead to both of them getting cut down), it might have been cowardly to make his choice, but I don't think it was cruel either. To quote Hanlon's Razor: 'Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.' Even smart people like Euchre can make mistakes, especially when suddenly thrust into high-stakes situations they were not prepared for.

And, don't get me wrong. I'm not necessarily saying that Euchre is some... good and heroic figure who is simply misunderstood and all will be revealed in the end. He's definitely not someone to look up to. But he's definitely not some type of evil maniacal mastermind who is only looking out for himself and is trying to twist everything to his own advantage and never ever EVER makes selfless actions without significant selfish justifications for it like some people are trying to hammer him into the role of. That's what I'm fighting against more than anything else.

The thought that Euchre is off light grey morality, not the pure black pits people are trying to shove him into. Statements like this:

Euchre himself realizes that he's beyond the point of forgiveness. Doing it out of love would be pointless.

Is what I'm fighting against.

[jacobc62]

The thought that Euchre is off light grey morality, not the pure black pits people are trying to shove him into. Statements like this:

Euchre himself realizes that he's beyond the point of forgiveness. Doing it out of love would be pointless.

Is what I'm fighting against.

I'm sure you're aware of this by now, but at this point, you're just fighting a losing battle on that front. That's not to say that you're wrong for having your opinion, you're very much in the right for having it.... But most of the fanbase -myself included - do disagree with you on that on a great number of varying degrees.

Euchre has done many terrible things, many of which are irredeemable to many folks.....
-Helping the leader of a coup against the mother of his daughter....
-Betraying his own people and assisting the man who wants to GENOCIDE them....
-Effectively leaving his cousin to die regardless of that outcome....
-Only being Raine's father and not her dad....
-Continuing to work within the Templar to further his own goals and agenda by playing some sort of double-agentish game.....


Really the only things he has done that were morally correct has so far that we have seen have been:
-Acting as a friend and mentor (kinda) to Flora when she was growing up
-Rescuing Mary and Raine from slavery (even though he was technically the reason they were enslaved in the first place)
-Maybe genuinely helping out Trace and Flora in the earlier chapters of the story... Especially in Chapter 6, Part 2?


I mean the dude may not be wholly evil, but he's solidly Lawful Evil if we were to place him in the Alignment Chart due to what actions we know he's taken and what we've also seen.

[Eclipse]

And, don't get me wrong. I'm not necessarily saying that Euchre is some... good and heroic figure who is simply misunderstood and all will be revealed in the end. He's definitely not someone to look up to. But he's definitely not some type of evil maniacal mastermind who is only looking out for himself and is trying to twist everything to his own advantage and never ever EVER makes selfless actions without significant selfish justifications for it like some people are trying to hammer him into the role of. That's what I'm fighting against more than anything else.

The thought that Euchre is off light grey morality, not the pure black pits people are trying to shove him into. Statements like this:

Euchre himself realizes that he's beyond the point of forgiveness. Doing it out of love would be pointless.

Is what I'm fighting against.

I don't think Euchre is pure black evil, I think he's closer to dark grey. That statement you quoted is more in the context of how Euchre and the people he's wronged feel about him than how I feel about him. In other words, their relationship is just plain irreparable and Euchre knows it, so trying to make up for it is just a hollow gesture. Now does that mean that Euchre is pure evil? Not necessarily. He could still do some good in the world, even if he's pursuing selfish means in the process. He seems to want to push Trace and Flora to stay together for some unclear reason, and that could be a good thing. But there are some people, and probably far more than just Rose, Mary, and Raine, whose lives have been permanently ruined by his actions.