Some people try to avoid spoilers you know. The fact that people might discuss things elsewhere is not an excuse to go around blabbing spoilers where you can easily put them in a spoiler tab.
Spoiler! Like So
Comic for September 14th Euchre's Gift
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Comic for September 14th Euchre's Gift
I admit, I do not like the fact I had such spoilers for the next comic spoiled in the forums without the grace of using the spoiler tab.
Some people try to avoid spoilers you know. The fact that people might discuss things elsewhere is not an excuse to go around blabbing spoilers where you can easily put them in a spoiler tab.
Some people try to avoid spoilers you know. The fact that people might discuss things elsewhere is not an excuse to go around blabbing spoilers where you can easily put them in a spoiler tab.
Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.
Re: Comic for September 14th Euchre's Gift
Man, I will never get the full throated endorsement of Rose and disapproval/hatred for Euchre. Are we even reading the same comic? Euchre's pretty objectively only been a good guy since the comic's started. Yeah, he may have assisted in Trace assuming power in the Templar, but
1) Trace was already well on his mad way when Euchre and him hooked up and likely could have done it just as easily without him,
2) Euchre only did it for pretty reasonable revenge against Mary and only did so on assurances that she and his daughter would be not be killed, and
3) Euchre had no idea to what extend Trace was losing it and was instrumental in bringing Trace back down from being literally Hitler.
In addition, Euchre was always on the lookout to keep Flora safe as a slave, he was the one who freed Flora, he was the one to free Raine and Mary, and he took a very nearly mortal blow to help stop Ephemural. The dude nearly sacrificed himself for Flora and Trace by getting in the way of a literal God.
Folks hyper-fixate on the time that he nearly left Rose hanging, but lets not forget a fair few things here. Even trying to put aside the whole "ha ha ha, I threaten to stab my family members as a prank" aspect of who she is for a second, Rose knew FULL WELL what would happen to her if she went and got caught in human territory and she still went. Then when she was caught, she tried to get him killed as well and now he's the bad guy? For not wanting to randomly commit suicide for "family" that otherwise thinks threatening him with a knife is funny? His fears were entirely justified; less self-centered and instead perfectly rational and understandable.
Oh, and let's not think she's become a particularly radiant pillar of virtue in her old age. She's also perfectly fine with the enslavement of people so long it benefits her. She's thankful for it even and actively desires certain livestock for them to be turned into to exploit.
Folks really need to start looking past the pretty faces and start actually looking at who they are.
1) Trace was already well on his mad way when Euchre and him hooked up and likely could have done it just as easily without him,
2) Euchre only did it for pretty reasonable revenge against Mary and only did so on assurances that she and his daughter would be not be killed, and
3) Euchre had no idea to what extend Trace was losing it and was instrumental in bringing Trace back down from being literally Hitler.
In addition, Euchre was always on the lookout to keep Flora safe as a slave, he was the one who freed Flora, he was the one to free Raine and Mary, and he took a very nearly mortal blow to help stop Ephemural. The dude nearly sacrificed himself for Flora and Trace by getting in the way of a literal God.
Folks hyper-fixate on the time that he nearly left Rose hanging, but lets not forget a fair few things here. Even trying to put aside the whole "ha ha ha, I threaten to stab my family members as a prank" aspect of who she is for a second, Rose knew FULL WELL what would happen to her if she went and got caught in human territory and she still went. Then when she was caught, she tried to get him killed as well and now he's the bad guy? For not wanting to randomly commit suicide for "family" that otherwise thinks threatening him with a knife is funny? His fears were entirely justified; less self-centered and instead perfectly rational and understandable.
Oh, and let's not think she's become a particularly radiant pillar of virtue in her old age. She's also perfectly fine with the enslavement of people so long it benefits her. She's thankful for it even and actively desires certain livestock for them to be turned into to exploit.
Folks really need to start looking past the pretty faces and start actually looking at who they are.
-
Bellhead
- Templar Inner Circle
- Posts: 4053
- Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:17 pm
- Location: New England, US
- Fav. Twokinds Character: Keith and Natani
Re: Comic for September 14th Euchre's Gift
Euchre has been on his own side for most of the comic, from what I've seen. He cared about Flora, and did whatever he wanted to protect her, only when he had no choice. He ignored Rose's warning and went to the academy anyway, and don't forget his words when Mary confronted him: "Would it have turned out any better for me if I had?" His interests were his own, and he didn't seem to care who got in the way. He could easily have said something to Sirius at the gallows to at least delay her execution until a proper interrogation could be performed, which wouldn't have seemed out of place if he didn't know who she was, but he just turned and left. Pretty damn cold, if you ask me.
He is, put simply, a manipulator with things he cares about. He's not heartless, but convincing him to care about something new would be almost impossible, and should two of his goals conflict, he'd scrap one to save the other, and it wouldn't hurt him that badly. What happened to Mary and Raine years ago left an impression, and put simply, it's that caring about people means they can be used to hurt you. He learned from that, that all he needed to know was how to abandon that which he cares about to avoid getting hurt. Not inherently evil, but certainly not a stand-up citizen. He shows up when it's convenient for him, not when he's needed.
And regarding Rose, she dealt with Dark Trace for (presumably) SEVERAL years, only to be left alone in an empty mansion, having lost nearly all she cared about. That would turn anyone into a vengeful grouch. And I'll also point out that scene where the "Templar" tried to infiltrate the estate: Rose warned them, in no uncertain terms, and simply did not resist. But once the curse activated, there was nothing more she could do (hence the facepalm), so she simply accepted it and moved on. That's not vengeful or evil, just plain apathetic. But in the case of Euchre's projection, where she was clear about it, it seemed to me that she was more venting anger and resentment than actually hoping for him to fall for it.
Rose knew a life of peace in her younger years, and Euchre saw a world of opportunity ahead of him. His ambition became his undoing, and he can never take back his decisions, or correct all of his mistakes. But Rose, having dealt with as much as she has, retained more than her fair share of sanity. She'll take drastic measures to ensure the safety of those she cares about, and for the best outcome for those around her. Remember her speech to Trace about the Soul Forge? She wasn't angry at him, so much as making sure he didn't repeat his own mistakes. Euchre would never have done that, he simply would have left some cryptic warning (which he did), and went on his way.
He's not evil, he just won't risk himself unless it is absolutely, 100%, COMPLETELY necessary to do so to protect one of... two? people he cares about, and even then, he hesitates.
He is, put simply, a manipulator with things he cares about. He's not heartless, but convincing him to care about something new would be almost impossible, and should two of his goals conflict, he'd scrap one to save the other, and it wouldn't hurt him that badly. What happened to Mary and Raine years ago left an impression, and put simply, it's that caring about people means they can be used to hurt you. He learned from that, that all he needed to know was how to abandon that which he cares about to avoid getting hurt. Not inherently evil, but certainly not a stand-up citizen. He shows up when it's convenient for him, not when he's needed.
And regarding Rose, she dealt with Dark Trace for (presumably) SEVERAL years, only to be left alone in an empty mansion, having lost nearly all she cared about. That would turn anyone into a vengeful grouch. And I'll also point out that scene where the "Templar" tried to infiltrate the estate: Rose warned them, in no uncertain terms, and simply did not resist. But once the curse activated, there was nothing more she could do (hence the facepalm), so she simply accepted it and moved on. That's not vengeful or evil, just plain apathetic. But in the case of Euchre's projection, where she was clear about it, it seemed to me that she was more venting anger and resentment than actually hoping for him to fall for it.
Rose knew a life of peace in her younger years, and Euchre saw a world of opportunity ahead of him. His ambition became his undoing, and he can never take back his decisions, or correct all of his mistakes. But Rose, having dealt with as much as she has, retained more than her fair share of sanity. She'll take drastic measures to ensure the safety of those she cares about, and for the best outcome for those around her. Remember her speech to Trace about the Soul Forge? She wasn't angry at him, so much as making sure he didn't repeat his own mistakes. Euchre would never have done that, he simply would have left some cryptic warning (which he did), and went on his way.
He's not evil, he just won't risk himself unless it is absolutely, 100%, COMPLETELY necessary to do so to protect one of... two? people he cares about, and even then, he hesitates.
Gearhead mechanic in the digital era, who will probably grow up is in the process of growing up to be a very grumpy old man.
Re: Comic for September 14th Euchre's Gift
This is an exaggeration, no one's saying that Rose can do no wrong and Euchre is the devil, but Euchre's done FAR more bad than Rose.
I mean, if he assisted Magic Hitler in his coup that's not "objectively good".
Maybe, but the fact of the matter is Euchre was complicit in Trace's coup and probably did horrible things in the process.Dadrobit wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:51 pm 1) Trace was already well on his mad way when Euchre and him hooked up and likely could have done it just as easily without him,
Revenge? Revenge for what? Mary caught Euchre, but what did she actually DO to him? It's not clear that she did anything to actually wrong him. It doesn't seem like Mary catching him actually did anything to disrupt his place in the Templar (and it seems like most in the Templar didn't even find out), so why would he want revenge on Mary? At the very least there's some missing context here (and I do want to see Tom fill in the blanks of what happened in between Rose's capture and Euchre joining Trace's coup/Rose ending up the Seneschal of the Legacy Estate), but I don't even think said context would give Euchre motivation for revenge against Mary. I think Euchre's just manipulative and self-serving and enjoys playing mental chess games.Dadrobit wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:51 pm 2) Euchre only did it for pretty reasonable revenge against Mary and only did so on assurances that she and his daughter would be not be killed, and
Yes, but does he want Trace and Flora together just out of the goodness of his heart or does he have an ulterior motive? My money's on the latter. Especially when he's working with Sirus to do so. Sirus doesn't seem as much like the type to help someone without getting something out of it.Dadrobit wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:51 pm In addition, Euchre was always on the lookout to keep Flora safe as a slave, he was the one who freed Flora, he was the one to free Raine and Mary, and he took a very nearly mortal blow to help stop Ephemural. The dude nearly sacrificed himself for Flora and Trace by getting in the way of a literal God.
Rose "didn't try to get him killed". Or at least not intentionally. She was about to be executed and called out for the one person in the Templar she thought could help him, and probably expected him to do something behind the scenes to help without exposing his identity.Dadrobit wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:51 pm Folks hyper-fixate on the time that he nearly left Rose hanging, but lets not forget a fair few things here. Even trying to put aside the whole "ha ha ha, I threaten to stab my family members as a prank" aspect of who she is for a second, Rose knew FULL WELL what would happen to her if she went and got caught in human territory and she still went. Then when she was caught, she tried to get him killed as well and now he's the bad guy? For not wanting to randomly commit suicide for "family" that otherwise thinks threatening him with a knife is funny? His fears were entirely justified; less self-centered and instead perfectly rational and understandable.
Like Bellhead said, she warned them ahead of time and they didn't listen. And I don't think she even wanted to set that up, that seems to be more Old Trace and Nora's doing. She's taking advantage of the situation, but I don't think she particularly wants to enslave them.Dadrobit wrote: ↑Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:51 pm Oh, and let's not think she's become a particularly radiant pillar of virtue in her old age. She's also perfectly fine with the enslavement of people so long it benefits her. She's thankful for it even and actively desires certain livestock for them to be turned into to exploit.