Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#31 Post by Technic[Bot] »

amenon wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:01 pm I thought it was a bit of a nothing page, but I suppose that's evidently not the case if it's generating discussion. But then, there's nothing new about the discussion, so maybe that's still true :P
The page struck me as "not much to show but lots to tell". so kinda agree with you.
For me it seems Toms is clearing some points about the nature of the link. Either so we are all in the same page for the rest of the comic or because he is setting some groundwork for later, probably both: We now know that Natani is actually an independent entity, there was some theory way back that suggested he was an automaton cobbled together from Zen soul and whatever pieces of Natani were left. Also, no Natani's mind is not fixed it is still a weird fragmented place and probably will never fully mend, evidenced by Youngtani being there,speaking of her we have confirmation than Youngtani is not some other person but bits and pieces of Natani that got pieced together. Finally we have been explicitly told the link is not a lifeline anymore and that one of them can die without the other kicking the bucket too.
Wonder if that means Tom intends in killing Zen at some point. Would be an interesting redemption arc, he realizes, finally, that he has not been the brother he wishes to be and sacrifies himself to save Nat in some undetermined point in the future. Some food for thought there.
amenon wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:01 pm I guess I'll have to take Youngtani's word that she's just a fragment, even if I have no idea how that could be, given that she appears quite distinct and complete in her own right. Why does a fragment appear whole? Is Natani a fractal? (But then, he/she isn't self-similar...) Anyway, taken on faith, for now. (Also, that line about 'not getting in the way' feels... odd.)
With every new comic the link seems more and more experimental. Like they were throwing magic at the wall and hoping it would work. Seemes like they simply took Natani's soul pieces and duct taped everything they could find and zip tied it to Zen soul, of course they forgot some bits, namely Youngtani, and superglued that to the rest. It is a small miracle that Natani managed to survive and is now able to exist without Zen soul to help.
But in all seriousness, if you want an explanation how Youngtani could be simply bit of Natani let me give you a computer analogy:
Sometimes when sometimes unexpected happens in a computer ,energy interruption for example, information might end up in parts of memory where it does not belong and some other program might read that and do unexpected stuff. Something similar happened to Nat, her soul was shattered and broken, they used Zen's to patch it but bits and pieces ended up where they did were supposed to, the link highly experimental nature then turned that into Youngtani's image. In my opinion of course.
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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#32 Post by Warrl »

With every new comic the link seems more and more experimental. Like they were throwing magic at the wall and hoping it would work. Seemes like they simply took Natani's soul pieces and duct taped everything they could find and zip tied it to Zen soul, of course they forgot some bits, namely Youngtani, and superglued that to the rest. It is a small miracle that Natani managed to survive and is now able to exist with Zen soul to help.
Considering that the act of shattering Natani's soul killed the mage who did it, I don't imagine that there had been an abundance of prior instances... so yeah, it was probably experimental.

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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#33 Post by steelabjur »

Warrl wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:24 am
survived an accident in which a 3 foot long, 1 1⁄4 inches (3.2 cm) in diameter iron rod was driven completely through his head with blasting powder, destroying much of his brain's left frontal lobe. He suffered metal changes
Obviously...

(Quite the appropriate typo, isn't it?)
LOL! Yeah, it was pretty metal. :wink:

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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#34 Post by CrRAR »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:18 amBut in all seriousness, if you want an explanation how Youngtani could be simply bit of Natani...
The way I'm beginning to visualize it is: picture for a moment if you were to splash a bit of mercury on a table, and next the imagery as it gathers slowly into larger beads, each bead representing different little fragments of Natani's psyche. At this point in the story, many tiny droplets have recombined to allow Natani and Youngtani to be the last two remaining "beads" to combine.

Zen helped out in the meantime by providing filler... gel... should we say? That, although stabilizing the situation has hindered merging. Almost like when water freezes... when salt is present it gets in the way of solidification. So, yes, Zen at this point (as he is realizing), is a hindrance to this process.

Why is Youngtani merely a self-described "fragment" at this point? Maybe the worldly Natani is a bigger bead of characteristics than Youngtani is and therefore is the "king" bead. Or maybe the interplay we're experiencing is the process of the classical id, ego, and superego of Natani duking it out. Natani more heavily representing the "ego" bits, while Youngtani being more of his "Id" (seems logical). It could also be that they both harbor fragments of that classical structure, some placeholder'd by Zen up until recently, that will take time to reintegrate without some psychological... discomfort.
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:18 am Seems like they simply took Natani's soul pieces and duct taped everything
I like the duct taping bit. xD

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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#35 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Warrl wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:23 pm
With every new comic the link seems more and more experimental. Like they were throwing magic at the wall and hoping it would work. Seemes like they simply took Natani's soul pieces and duct taped everything they could find and zip tied it to Zen soul, of course they forgot some bits, namely Youngtani, and superglued that to the rest. It is a small miracle that Natani managed to survive and is now able to exist without Zen soul to help.
Considering that the act of shattering Natani's soul killed the mage who did it, I don't imagine that there had been an abundance of prior instances... so yeah, it was probably experimental.
What i was trying to say is that the link instead of being a well thought but untested method for fixing a broken soul. And probably creating a super-assasin along the way. Seems more like some macgyvered process they came up on one night fever dream...
CrRAR wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:39 pm
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:18 amBut in all seriousness, if you want an explanation how Youngtani could be simply bit of Natani...
The way I'm beginning to visualize it is: picture for a moment if you were to splash a bit of mercury on a table, and next the imagery as it gathers slowly into larger beads, each bead representing different little fragments of Natani's psyche. At this point in the story, many tiny droplets have recombined to allow Natani and Youngtani to be the last two remaining "beads" to combine.

Zen helped out in the meantime by providing filler... gel... should we say? That, although allowing for cushioning, bridging, and filler has hindered merging. Almost like when water freezes... when salt is present it gets in the way of solidification. So, yes, Zen at this point (as he is realizing), is a hindrance to this process.

Why is Youngtani merely a self-described "fragment" at this point? Maybe the worldly Natani is a bigger bead of characteristics than Youngtani is and therefore is the "king" bead. Or maybe the interplay we're experiencing is the process of the classical id, ego, and superego of Natani duking it out. Natani more heavily representing the "ego" bits, while Youngtani being more of his "Id" (seems logical). It could also be that they both harbor fragments of that classical structure, some placeholder'd by Zen up until recently, that will take time to reintegrate without some psychological... discomfort.
Pretty much what I was trying to say good analogy by the way.
Some pieces of Natani mind did not "coalesced" with the rest and turned into youngtani. She is aware of this as she probably has more blanks than normal Natani in her psyche, not to mention she has no physical body and has probably spend the last couple of year watching, from somewhere inside the link, how the better part of herself ketp going around with his life
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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#36 Post by Neptune »

Is it just me, or does the Natani dysphasia problem seem to have been prematurely cut off? It feels a LittleLizard rushed, not to mention the fact that she's come from "I'm a male, okay?!," to "I'm a male, I guess!" Not really that different.

I wish maybe there was a little theme at the end of it that says "oh, sometimes people act a little gay, but that's just what people do."
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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#37 Post by Warrl »

Neptune wrote: Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:18 pm Is it just me, or does the Natani dysphasia problem seem to have been prematurely cut off? It feels a LittleLizard rushed, not to mention the fact that she's come from "I'm a male, okay?!," to "I'm a male, I guess!" Not really that different.

I wish maybe there was a little theme at the end of it that says "oh, sometimes people act a little gay, but that's just what people do."
Well, there were some pretty dramatic events (happening in his head) that triggered the change. Finding out that he's not as dependent on Zen as he formerly believed, finding out that there's a fragment of his former self still around and again in contact, finding out that some of what he believed about himself was Zen's opinions, not necessarily reality...

... and the dysphasia is hardly cut off. "I do feel less self-conscious about my body" is not the same as "I no longer feel self-conscious about my body", and even that came with a qualification.

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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#38 Post by Neptune »

Warrl wrote: Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:59 pm …and the dysphasia is hardly cut off. "I do feel less self-conscious about my body" is not the same as "I no longer feel self-conscious about my body", and even that came with a qualification.
Just because it's not the same doesn't mean it's different. I didn't say that her dysphasia was cut off, but the development of how she acts around it was cut off. Even then, not much else about her personality really changed.
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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#39 Post by MuonNeutrino »

amenon wrote:I guess I'll have to take Youngtani's word that she's just a fragment, even if I have no idea how that could be, given that she appears quite distinct and complete in her own right. Why does a fragment appear whole? Is Natani a fractal? (But then, he/she isn't self-similar...)
...
(How is she a fragment aaaaaaaaaaa)
Late, I know, but the way I see it, it all comes down to Youngtani's statement, "I’m not a separate person". Because she's not a separate person, she doesn't need to *be* complete to *appear* complete - she's got the rest of Natani to provide that. If the 'normal' Natani is soul fragments A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and H, Youngtani is soul fragments A2, B2, C, D, E, F, G, and H, or something along those lines - the variant pieces A2 and B2 are what make her distinct, so she's a 'fragment' in that sense, but she's otherwise still just Natani. Or, put another way, she's just a different perspective on 'Natani' - looking at Natani's soul from a different angle that brings different, previously repressed aspects to the foreground. Or at least that's how I see it.
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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#40 Post by amenon »

MuonNeutrino wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:35 pm Late, I know, but the way I see it, it all comes down to Youngtani's statement, "I’m not a separate person". Because she's not a separate person, she doesn't need to *be* complete to *appear* complete - she's got the rest of Natani to provide that. If the 'normal' Natani is soul fragments A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and H, Youngtani is soul fragments A2, B2, C, D, E, F, G, and H, or something along those lines - the variant pieces A2 and B2 are what make her distinct, so she's a 'fragment' in that sense, but she's otherwise still just Natani. Or, put another way, she's just a different perspective on 'Natani' - looking at Natani's soul from a different angle that brings different, previously repressed aspects to the foreground. Or at least that's how I see it.
But then she would not be 'just a tiny fractured bit of our subconscious' -- she would be just as complete as the main Natani :P
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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#41 Post by aitaituo »

amenon wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:29 pm
MuonNeutrino wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:35 pm Late, I know, but the way I see it, it all comes down to Youngtani's statement, "I’m not a separate person". Because she's not a separate person, she doesn't need to *be* complete to *appear* complete - she's got the rest of Natani to provide that. If the 'normal' Natani is soul fragments A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and H, Youngtani is soul fragments A2, B2, C, D, E, F, G, and H, or something along those lines - the variant pieces A2 and B2 are what make her distinct, so she's a 'fragment' in that sense, but she's otherwise still just Natani. Or, put another way, she's just a different perspective on 'Natani' - looking at Natani's soul from a different angle that brings different, previously repressed aspects to the foreground. Or at least that's how I see it.
But then she would not be 'just a tiny fractured bit of our subconscious' -- she would be just as complete as the main Natani :P
How do we know she's not? Natani didn't even know about her until Zen was magically firewalled out of her brain. Youngtani has her own memories, personality, and will, which is so far subservient to Natani's at least in terms of controlling decisions and their shared body. What happens if Youngtani strongly opposes something Natani is doing? We all face those kinds of internal conflicts, but Natani's internal strife has a name and a face. It's not quite the same thing as going with one inclination over another here. Natani could be in for a new kind of body horror, poor thing.

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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#42 Post by MuonNeutrino »

amenon wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:29 pmBut then she would not be 'just a tiny fractured bit of our subconscious' -- she would be just as complete as the main Natani :P
That's my point. The thing that makes Youngtani Youngtani are the lost/repressed soul fragments/etc that were able to come back out and manifest themselves once the link was gone. In that sense, it makes sense to refer to her as 'just a tiny fractured bit of our subconscious', because relative to the rest of Natani that's what she is. But just because she's only a small part of Natani, doesn't mean she isn't still *part of Natani*, and so she's no more incomplete than Natani is. (I suppose some might argue that that could still be 'pretty darn incomplete', but that's a completely different discussion. :P) I guess what I'm trying to say is that 'complete' and 'a tiny fractured bit of our subconscious' don't have to be mutually exclusive, because Youngtani isn't a separate entity from Natani even if her perspective varies from that of the 'normal' Natani's consciousness most of the time.
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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#43 Post by CrRAR »

aitaituo wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:51 pm
amenon wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:29 pm
MuonNeutrino wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:35 pm Late, I know, but the way I see it, it all comes down to Youngtani's statement, "I’m not a separate person". Because she's not a separate person, she doesn't need to *be* complete to *appear* complete - she's got the rest of Natani to provide that. If the 'normal' Natani is soul fragments A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and H, Youngtani is soul fragments A2, B2, C, D, E, F, G, and H, or something along those lines - the variant pieces A2 and B2 are what make her distinct, so she's a 'fragment' in that sense, but she's otherwise still just Natani. Or, put another way, she's just a different perspective on 'Natani' - looking at Natani's soul from a different angle that brings different, previously repressed aspects to the foreground. Or at least that's how I see it.
But then she would not be 'just a tiny fractured bit of our subconscious' -- she would be just as complete as the main Natani :P

How do we know she's not? Natani didn't even know about her until Zen was magically firewalled out of her brain. Youngtani has her own memories, personality, and will, which is so far subservient to Natani's at least in terms of controlling decisions and their shared body. What happens if Youngtani strongly opposes something Natani is doing? We all face those kinds of internal conflicts, but Natani's internal strife has a name and a face. It's not quite the same thing as going with one inclination over another here. Natani could be in for a new kind of body horror, poor thing.
MuonNeutrino wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:20 pm
amenon wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:29 pmBut then she would not be 'just a tiny fractured bit of our subconscious' -- she would be just as complete as the main Natani :P
That's my point. The thing that makes Youngtani Youngtani are the lost/repressed soul fragments/etc that were able to come back out and manifest themselves once the link was gone. In that sense, it makes sense to refer to her as 'just a tiny fractured bit of our subconscious', because relative to the rest of Natani that's what she is. But just because she's only a small part of Natani, doesn't mean she isn't still *part of Natani*, and so she's no more incomplete than Natani is. (I suppose some might argue that that could still be 'pretty darn incomplete', but that's a completely different discussion. :P) I guess what I'm trying to say is that 'complete' and 'a tiny fractured bit of our subconscious' don't have to be mutually exclusive, because Youngtani isn't a separate entity from Natani even if her perspective varies from that of the 'normal' Natani's consciousness most of the time.
Good discussions!

Yeah, I think any incidents - ones even in Zen's "presence", or during times of the mindlink weakening - where Natani has felt conflicted can be attributed to Youngtani, moments where Natani has questioned her arrangement with Keith then resolved to score a sweet smooch anyway or any point where he has wondered about what he's doing is right for "him". Those sort of creeping, unexplained feelings ushering him in an unfamiliar direction contrary to the path of Zen. *ooooohmmmmm* :P

The question has evolved from what's right for collective "him" ("Natani", plus Zen) to what's right for Me? (Natani, the individual).

Remember, most of these conflicts occurred in opposition to "I'M A MALE! (whyamidoingthis!?)". That indicates unexplained urges or inklings from somewhere subconsciously... which is where Youngtani hails from. Eyyy, not a coincidence I don't think. Youngtani is certainly a large part of Natani's identity, so much as someone's orientation and self-image are. Natani is increasingly a composite of his overt self crafted by Zen's influence and his realigning subconscious.

Natani as we know him is still partly imprinted with Zen brand macho and is in the process of adopting his own brand of macho, fueled by the Youngtani revelations, Adelaide's peptalk, and the dialog he had with Kat. That's where a majority of Natani's current growth is focused. Keith and Youngtani are capable catalysts.

EDIT...
Important piece of 4-year-old evidence... "Yes, there is a… small part of me that… has feelings for you."
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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#44 Post by aitaituo »

Spoiler! For size
CrRAR wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:11 am
aitaituo wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:51 pm
amenon wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:29 pm
MuonNeutrino wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:35 pm Late, I know, but the way I see it, it all comes down to Youngtani's statement, "I’m not a separate person". Because she's not a separate person, she doesn't need to *be* complete to *appear* complete - she's got the rest of Natani to provide that. If the 'normal' Natani is soul fragments A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and H, Youngtani is soul fragments A2, B2, C, D, E, F, G, and H, or something along those lines - the variant pieces A2 and B2 are what make her distinct, so she's a 'fragment' in that sense, but she's otherwise still just Natani. Or, put another way, she's just a different perspective on 'Natani' - looking at Natani's soul from a different angle that brings different, previously repressed aspects to the foreground. Or at least that's how I see it.
But then she would not be 'just a tiny fractured bit of our subconscious' -- she would be just as complete as the main Natani :P

How do we know she's not? Natani didn't even know about her until Zen was magically firewalled out of her brain. Youngtani has her own memories, personality, and will, which is so far subservient to Natani's at least in terms of controlling decisions and their shared body. What happens if Youngtani strongly opposes something Natani is doing? We all face those kinds of internal conflicts, but Natani's internal strife has a name and a face. It's not quite the same thing as going with one inclination over another here. Natani could be in for a new kind of body horror, poor thing.
MuonNeutrino wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:20 pm
amenon wrote: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:29 pmBut then she would not be 'just a tiny fractured bit of our subconscious' -- she would be just as complete as the main Natani :P
That's my point. The thing that makes Youngtani Youngtani are the lost/repressed soul fragments/etc that were able to come back out and manifest themselves once the link was gone. In that sense, it makes sense to refer to her as 'just a tiny fractured bit of our subconscious', because relative to the rest of Natani that's what she is. But just because she's only a small part of Natani, doesn't mean she isn't still *part of Natani*, and so she's no more incomplete than Natani is. (I suppose some might argue that that could still be 'pretty darn incomplete', but that's a completely different discussion. :P) I guess what I'm trying to say is that 'complete' and 'a tiny fractured bit of our subconscious' don't have to be mutually exclusive, because Youngtani isn't a separate entity from Natani even if her perspective varies from that of the 'normal' Natani's consciousness most of the time.
Good discussions!

Yeah, I think any incidents - ones even in Zen's "presence", or during times of the mindlink weakening - where Natani has felt conflicted can be attributed to Youngtani, moments where Natani has questioned her arrangement with Keith then resolved to score a sweet smooch anyway or any point where he has wondered about what he's doing is right for "him". Those sort of creeping, unexplained feelings ushering him in an unfamiliar direction contrary to the path of Zen. *ooooohmmmmm* :P

The question has evolved from what's right for collective "him" ("Natani", plus Zen) to what's right for Me? (Natani, the individual).

Remember, most of these conflicts occurred in opposition to "I'M A MALE! (whyamidoingthis!?)". That indicates unexplained urges or inklings from somewhere subconsciously... which is where Youngtani hails from. Eyyy, not a coincidence I don't think. Youngtani is certainly a large part of Natani's identity, so much as someone's orientation and self-image are. Natani is increasingly a composite of his overt self crafted by Zen's influence and his realigning subconscious.

Natani as we know him is still partly imprinted with Zen brand macho and is in the process of adopting his own brand of macho, fueled by the Youngtani revelations, Adelaide's peptalk, and the dialog he had with Kat. That's where a majority of Natani's current growth is focused. Keith and Youngtani are capable catalysts.

EDIT...
Important piece of 4-year-old evidence... "Yes, there is a… small part of me that… has feelings for you."
That's a really good theory, but not one that assuages my concerns about Natani's psychological well-being. Maybe it's less that Youngtani emerged as direct result of the link being interrupted, but that she emerged in the absence of Zen because Natani refused to accept that those thoughts and feelings were actually coming from herself and she projected them into Youngtani so she could continue to isolate her sense of self from them. That wouldn't explain the difference in memories, though.

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Re: Comic for August 9, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 3

#45 Post by Panther »

What , "this thing" ? :shock:

Be nice , Zen : it's your fully minded young sister , even if :natani:
Man is a wolf for man ........ Don't insult the wolves :natani:

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