Comic for March 24, 2018

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James Polymer
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#46 Post by James Polymer »

Ddraig wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:07 pm Euchre abandoned family - Rose - to be executed and someone else had to intervene to save her
Kei, with the exception of a mistake made while he was a kid, treated Flora like family and looked out for her. He may have been slightly overbearing about it once, but that's an older brother for you.
I initially hated him with a passion for this, but more recently I've had to reconsider. How would Euchre have gone about getting Rose out of that situation without revealing himself as a keidran? He could have pretended she was his slave, but they might have demanded documents of ownership or a proof of sale to confirm that, and he would have neither. Even if they bought it, it would only raise more questions; she was apprehended while using magic to disguise herself and sneak into town. What kind of owner teaches their slave those skills and leaves them (apparently) unsupervised to use them willy-nilly? He could be a wolf sympathizer, teaching them to infiltrate human lands for some nefarious purpose in their on-again, off-again wars. Going down a different rabbit hole, what sort of "relationship" between a male master and female slave would prompt the latter to take such a risk and seek him out like that? After all, he was the secret* boy-toy of the Grand Templar while attending the magic academy she administers; he's got to have a few unsavory rumors circling him already. It would be the perfect scandal, and people would have clamored for an investigation of some sort, resulting in all the details coming to light.

Do I fault Euchre for passively saying nothing, instead of at least trying to save Rose? Certainly; and she is very right to hold it against him now. However, unless he was a particularly fast talker (as in "Nick Wilde on a double-shot espresso" fast), chances are he would have only dug a deeper hole for both himself and his cousin.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#47 Post by Hulk10 »

James Polymer wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:36 am
Ddraig wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:07 pm Euchre abandoned family - Rose - to be executed and someone else had to intervene to save her
Kei, with the exception of a mistake made while he was a kid, treated Flora like family and looked out for her. He may have been slightly overbearing about it once, but that's an older brother for you.
I initially hated him with a passion for this, but more recently I've had to reconsider. How would Euchre have gone about getting Rose out of that situation without revealing himself as a keidran? He could have pretended she was his slave, but they might have demanded documents of ownership or a proof of sale to confirm that, and he would have neither. Even if they bought it, it would only raise more questions; she was apprehended while using magic to disguise herself and sneak into town. What kind of owner teaches their slave those skills and leaves them (apparently) unsupervised to use them willy-nilly? He could be a wolf sympathizer, teaching them to infiltrate human lands for some nefarious purpose in their on-again, off-again wars. Going down a different rabbit hole, what sort of "relationship" between a male master and female slave would prompt the latter to take such a risk and seek him out like that? After all, he was the secret* boy-toy of the Grand Templar while attending the magic academy she administers; he's got to have a few unsavory rumors circling him already. It would be the perfect scandal, and people would have clamored for an investigation of some sort, resulting in all the details coming to light.

Do I fault Euchre for passively saying nothing, instead of at least trying to save Rose? Certainly; and she is very right to hold it against him now. However, unless he was a particularly fast talker (as in "Nick Wilde on a double-shot espresso" fast), chances are he would have only dug a deeper hole for both himself and his cousin.
Your analysis is well thought out.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#48 Post by Hulk10 »

Dadrobit wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:15 am
James Polymer wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:33 am
Hulk10 wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:58 pm He is like Anakin.
More Anakin stuff.
Bullcrap.

Trace was NEVER a good person. Saria's murder and his experiments in necromancy weren't some massive, mind altering, morality destroying event, it just nudged him further towards an extreme he was already pointed at in his lifelong career of being a dick towards keidran. We see that even as a child he had zero respect for them in the way that he referred to Rose on the gallows as an "it". Then later on after courting Saria he purchased his very own slave and got into a shouting match that "the whole town could hear" to justify it. Furthermore, it likely wasn't just the one slave that he owned, as Nora specifically says "the first time [Trace] bought a slave for the house".

And as for not committing many atrocities, I suppose these children deserved to die? And the King's Guard? "I'll kill you all and sort it out later."

Boy! What a protagonist! /sarcasm

And a big thing that y'all are overlooking is that "Dark Trace" is NOT some alter ego that was created during his rampage days that he suppressed after having his memories stripped away. It is simply Trace as he is now AFTER losing all of his memories but then finding out how much power he can unlock. The only influence creating Dark Trace is his own realizations of his potential power. "I don't need anything else except these powers."

Put in short, Trace was a dick growing up, Trace was a super dick as an adult, Trace was a murderous super dick after losing Saria and vowing hyper-revenge, and Trace is a murderous super dick now just because he's got power, (and he thinks about Flora on occasion).

The amount of time that you praise Trace for being a "protagonist" is an incredibly short period of time, (interspersed with child murder) whereas a majority of his life is spent unrepentantly having a moral compass that reads somewhere between "worse than Keiren on a bad day" to "literally Hitler."
How do you explain the fact that Tom basically said in the comic that Trace was turned evil by his experiments with necromancy hmm? While I agree his support of slavery is morally wrong. And everyone is entitled to their informed opinion.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#49 Post by Rafe »

As involved as he is in the story, Euchre is very much a secret to us. Part of the problem with deciding how to feel about Euchre is that despite seeing some significant details and stories about him, we never have really heard his thoughts. Almost everything we've seen is told to us by someone else, or the action is just presented to us with very little explanation about Euchre's feelings or motivations. So theories about him could be pretty wide open at the moment.

Maybe he's one of those singularly focused types, to which nothing matters except what fascinates him, in his case, magic. People, even family concern him somewhat, but ultimately don't mean as much to him. Albert Einstein was this way - focused on his theoretical physics, but when it came down to it, he was a pretty poor and inattentive husband and father.

Maybe Euchre is the direct opposite. Maybe he cared deeply for Mary and Raine (as soon as he knew of her), and can't forgive himself for leaving Rose to die, and wouldn't dream of asking forgiveness from her. (After all, he didn't even appear to her until she sensed him. He might have not even wanted her to know he was there.) He probably believes that he deserves whatever hatred Rose has for him, if not more. His serenity, which could be taken as smarmy lack of concern, could just be a face he's using to hide the fact that he's emotionally crushed himself with all this, but has the ability to hide it from others, because he doesn't want their pity or concern. He's convinced he doesn't deserve it.

Or maybe his experiences just broke him emotionally. His serenity could be genuine, but it's there because he just shut himself off from feeling anything pleasurable. He's old, he's probably done more harm than good in his life, and he's just waiting to die while causing as little trouble to those around him as possible.

He could have something planned or even in place that will show him for what he is, whether he's a self-centered force for evil, or he's someone who's been trying to make up for all the pain he's caused. As usual, we have to wait and see.

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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#50 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Finally after what? 12 years or something (a few months in my case) we are gonna learn what it Euchre plan is.
After all we have no idea what motivates him. Sure he is passionate about magic and we know why he got into the academy and into Mary but his current objective, present day objetive?
Most of his actions suggest he has some form of grand-plan but we do not know what is it.
Cultural integration, World peace, get to live a life with his family, the grand templar title, power, magic, world domination, godhod, god-slaying? We have no idea! (that makes him interesting)

He seems to know a lot about the mask and their games. More than a simple scholar would know, he knew how to sabotage Neutral plan right before it suceeded ,how that convoluted, overly complicated unclear comic-book evil scheme almost worked is beyond me but i digress. He has been actively helping new-Trace and the party both up-front and in the shadows. Yet he joined Trace inner circle knowing full well he was planning to eradicate his species, but helped her daughter and ex... wife/girlfriend/mate? escape futher torture and probably death, and at this point it is clear he could have get rid of Trace and company simply by directing the Templar into their general direction. So what is this guy trying to do?
Rafe wrote: Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:00 am As involved as he is in the story, Euchre is very much a secret to us. Part of the problem with deciding how to feel about Euchre is that despite seeing some significant details and stories about him, we never have really heard his thoughts. Almost everything we've seen is told to us by someone else, or the action is just presented to us with very little explanation about Euchre's feelings or motivations. So theories about him could be pretty wide open at the moment.

Maybe he's one of those singularly focused types, to which nothing matters except what fascinates him, in his case, magic. People, even family concern him somewhat, but ultimately don't mean as much to him. Albert Einstein was this way - focused on his theoretical physics, but when it came down to it, he was a pretty poor and inattentive husband and father.

Maybe Euchre is the direct opposite. Maybe he cared deeply for Mary and Raine (as soon as he knew of her), and can't forgive himself for leaving Rose to die, and wouldn't dream of asking forgiveness from her. (After all, he didn't even appear to her until she sensed him. He might have not even wanted her to know he was there.) He probably believes that he deserves whatever hatred Rose has for him, if not more. His serenity, which could be taken as smarmy lack of concern, could just be a face he's using to hide the fact that he's emotionally crushed himself with all this, but has the ability to hide it from others, because he doesn't want their pity or concern. He's convinced he doesn't deserve it.

Or maybe his experiences just broke him emotionally. His serenity could be genuine, but it's there because he just shut himself off from feeling anything pleasurable. He's old, he's probably done more harm than good in his life, and he's just waiting to die while causing as little trouble to those around him as possible.

He could have something planned or even in place that will show him for what he is, whether he's a self-centered force for evil, or he's someone who's been trying to make up for all the pain he's caused. As usual, we have to wait and see.
Love this theory, paints Euchre as a heart-broken old man who regrets most of his life choices, most likely he wont even get to see her daugther or ex... something again. Which is more interesting than smug Bond-villain!

Dadrobit wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:15 am
James Polymer wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:33 am
Hulk10 wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:58 pm He is like Anakin.
More Anakin stuff.
Bullcrap.

Trace was NEVER a good person. Saria's murder and his experiments in necromancy weren't some massive, mind altering, morality destroying event, it just nudged him further towards an extreme he was already pointed at in his lifelong career of being a dick towards keidran. We see that even as a child he had zero respect for them in the way that he referred to Rose on the gallows as an "it". Then later on after courting Saria he purchased his very own slave and got into a shouting match that "the whole town could hear" to justify it. Furthermore, it likely wasn't just the one slave that he owned, as Nora specifically says "the first time [Trace] bought a slave for the house".

And as for not committing many atrocities, I suppose these children deserved to die? And the King's Guard? "I'll kill you all and sort it out later."

Boy! What a protagonist! /sarcasm

And a big thing that y'all are overlooking is that "Dark Trace" is NOT some alter ego that was created during his rampage days that he suppressed after having his memories stripped away. It is simply Trace as he is now AFTER losing all of his memories but then finding out how much power he can unlock. The only influence creating Dark Trace is his own realizations of his potential power. "I don't need anything else except these powers."

Put in short, Trace was a dick growing up, Trace was a super dick as an adult, Trace was a murderous super dick after losing Saria and vowing hyper-revenge, and Trace is a murderous super dick now just because he's got power, (and he thinks about Flora on occasion).

The amount of time that you praise Trace for being a "protagonist" is an incredibly short period of time, (interspersed with child murder) whereas a majority of his life is spent unrepentantly having a moral compass that reads somewhere between "worse than Keiren on a bad day" to "literally Hitler."
First of all I have to agree with you. Old-trace sometimes feels more like a Grand-Wizard instead of Grand-Templar. But i do want to ellaborate:
I think Trace main arc is accepting he was a total monster, realizing that he still is responsible for all he did, and eventually trying to fix all the damage he has done somehow. But since this story moves slower than the Odissey , the eponymous protagonist took ten years to get back to his home Itaca, we are still in phase one: Running away from his past pretending it mostly did not happen, he is just starting to realize all the evil he did.
So yeah I am pretty sure he will confront his dark-side and accept his responsability in creating the situation his world lives in, along with some heavy character development but it is gonna take a lot of time, real time...
Not to mention in his current state, any attempt to help fix the mess he made, will probably result in more child murder. As you point out he can't fully control his true power

In any case it was stated that Necromancy did caused neurological damage, breaking his mind and turning the casually racist and grieve-striken Trace into a maniac. Of course he was probably pretty god-damn racist and pro-slavery before that, kinda comes in the job description for templar and the society he was born into did not help either. But that was and exponential leap in intensity.
As I see it there are 4 phases in Trace character:
Young mage prodigy both ambitious and casually racist.
Grief striken widow now with a personal vendetta against Keidran
Dark-Trace. A brain damaged, giref striken, genocidal psycopath hell bent on revenge.
New-Trace. What happens when you evil-master plan fails miserably.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#51 Post by Hulk10 »

Good analysis Technibot.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#52 Post by Warrl »

Esn wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:08 amMrs. Nibbly is Euchre. Using his Perfect Transformation spell.king around?
Plausible. Can't argue against it. Can't endorse it either, because there are too many other plausible options I can't argue against.
James Polymer wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:36 amHow would Euchre have gone about getting Rose out of that situation without revealing himself as a keidran? He could have pretended she was his slave, but they might have demanded documents of ownership or a proof of sale to confirm that, and he would have neither.
"She's a slave of one of our neighbors. Not a very smart one either, she barely learned to understand a bit of human speech. Something must be up if they'd send her with a message for me."

Of course, explaining why she didn't have suitable documentation for the task (and was using an illusion charm instead) would still be a problem. Perhaps one that could be handled by ignoring it and raising a distraction - (after some conversation in keidran) "Oh, my mother is ill. I need to go home for a bit. I'll take care of returning her."

But then again, that might not work.

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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#53 Post by James Polymer »

Dadrobit wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:15 am
James Polymer wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:33 am
Hulk10 wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:58 pm He is like Anakin.
More Anakin stuff.
Bullcrap.

Trace was NEVER a good person. Saria's murder and his experiments in necromancy weren't some massive, mind altering, morality destroying event, it just nudged him further towards an extreme he was already pointed at in his lifelong career of being a dick towards keidran. We see that even as a child he had zero respect for them in the way that he referred to Rose on the gallows as an "it". Then later on after courting Saria he purchased his very own slave and got into a shouting match that "the whole town could hear" to justify it. Furthermore, it likely wasn't just the one slave that he owned, as Nora specifically says "the first time [Trace] bought a slave for the house".

And as for not committing many atrocities, I suppose these children deserved to die? And the King's Guard? "I'll kill you all and sort it out later."

Boy! What a protagonist! /sarcasm

And a big thing that y'all are overlooking is that "Dark Trace" is NOT some alter ego that was created during his rampage days that he suppressed after having his memories stripped away. It is simply Trace as he is now AFTER losing all of his memories but then finding out how much power he can unlock. The only influence creating Dark Trace is his own realizations of his potential power. "I don't need anything else except these powers."

Put in short, Trace was a dick growing up, Trace was a super dick as an adult, Trace was a murderous super dick after losing Saria and vowing hyper-revenge, and Trace is a murderous super dick now just because he's got power, (and he thinks about Flora on occasion).

The amount of time that you praise Trace for being a "protagonist" is an incredibly short period of time, (interspersed with child murder) whereas a majority of his life is spent unrepentantly having a moral compass that reads somewhere between "worse than Keiren on a bad day" to "literally Hitler."
First off, young and adult Trace were not “dicks.” He was raised in a world where different races rarely interacted unless they were stabbing each other, slavery was a widespread and accepted practice, the default form of government was the absolute monarchy, and any discussion of "civil rights" extended only to whether someone should be tortured before they were killed. Trace was a product of his environment, as are the other members of the cast (which I'll get to later).

Yes, Trace purchased a slave. Chances are slave ownership was a sign of wealth or social status where he lived, much like in the American South before the Civil War. In any case, as I recall this was meant as a gift to his wife to help her with housework rather than a field laborer or “test subject” for magic research. His expression when Saria objected to this was surprise and confusion rather than anger, as if he had never encountered this viewpoint before; this indicates antislavery views aren’t exactly common. If you're taught from birth that segregation and slavery are right–-or even worse, supported by a divine mandate–-then you will believe it, and accept it without a second thought. Incidentally, was it ever confirmed whether said slave was kept, or whether the Legacies ever obtained more before Saria's death?

Secondly, I fail to see how Trace as an embryonic Templar was in any way a “super dick.” He was annoyed that Humans and Keidran weren’t fighting, but that struck me more as a desire to have an adventure and put his magic skills to use–in other words, how the average male juvenile has viewed war through most of human history. He was melting into a desk job and wanted something to break to doldrums; that’s a far cry from pushing for genocide. He certainly acted immaturely after meeting Saria, what with staging mock battles with Nora in an effort to impress her and causing extensive property damage. However, these actions are less characteristic of a “dick” than they are of a “horny young man” clueless in the arts of wooing and willing to do stupid things to look macho in the eyes of his crush.

Yes, Trace dabbled in black magic at the academy. This is probably the most reckless and short-sighted thing he did during this period, and speaks to a certain degree of arrogance and carelessness in his character. However, he was in his late teens/early twenties, when you know you can take on the world, and who cares what those old squares say about things like alcohol or other potentially dangerous habits. Trace was one of the most gifted and powerful magic users of his generation, and even attracted the interest of the Grand Templar herself. The guy was hot bird droppings and he knew it; surely he could succeed where others had failed, as long as he was really careful? In any case, this was before he met Saria, and his motives didn’t seem any more nefarious than pushing himself and seeking knowledge where no-one else seemed willing. His decision to use black magic to resurrect his dead wife was influenced by his pride, to say nothing of the irrational grief at the loss of a loved one.

The effects of black magic on one's body and mind has been covered at length both in-comic and on the forums, so we'll say no more about it here. Suffice to say, Trace was not in his right mind when he overthrew the Templar and became Wizard Hitler.

Finally, racism as a character trait is hardly exclusive to Trace Legacy. When Group B first encountered Flora in the bathhouse they referred to her as an "it" as well, and continued dehumanizing Sythe even after he risked his life to save them during their village's destruction. (Even before that, Maren and Karen refused to serve Keidran in their tavern.) Kei came from a slaveowning family and abandoned his friendship with Flora when it became socially unacceptable; though he made amends with her, he still hates wolves with a passion. Eric is a freaking slave trader who actively subjugates his property's free will with control spells despite considering Kathryn part of his family. Mary Silverlock, the humane former Grand Templar, only saw fit to stop an innocent keidran girl's lynching after discovering her boy-toy was connected to her in some way. (Furthermore, despite forgiving Euchre and having a hybrid daughter she still considers Keidran "[their] enemies"). And that's not even counting the non-human cast. Zen and Natani had absolutely no problem killing anyone who wasn't a wolf, and Keith hated Keidran to the point where he attacked Flora within 5 seconds of meeting her. Flora herself initially planned to seduce Trace to kill the Grand Templar, and still has issues trusting humans after what she and her family went through. Even the wise and worldly Lady Nora mentioned dragons view mortals as "low folk," initially referred to Flora as "that thing," and couldn't be bothered to stop her mentally damaged friend from slaughtering Keidran by the wagonload. Are we to condemn all these people as well?

I am not a white knight for Trace Legacy; the man has done terrible things and has a great deal to atone for. At this point my views on him are “ambivalently sympathetic,” and everything will depend on what the man does moving forwards. If he cuts and runs from his problems despite seeing all the suffering his actions have caused (and continue to cause), then he will get it from both barrels. If, however, he takes responsibility for his actions--whether he was in his right mind or not--and tries to make things right, then he will have earned his redemption.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#54 Post by Hulk10 »

James Polymer wrote: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:44 am
Dadrobit wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:15 am
James Polymer wrote: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:33 am
Hulk10 wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:58 pm He is like Anakin.
More Anakin stuff.
Bullcrap.

Trace was NEVER a good person. Saria's murder and his experiments in necromancy weren't some massive, mind altering, morality destroying event, it just nudged him further towards an extreme he was already pointed at in his lifelong career of being a dick towards keidran. We see that even as a child he had zero respect for them in the way that he referred to Rose on the gallows as an "it". Then later on after courting Saria he purchased his very own slave and got into a shouting match that "the whole town could hear" to justify it. Furthermore, it likely wasn't just the one slave that he owned, as Nora specifically says "the first time [Trace] bought a slave for the house".

And as for not committing many atrocities, I suppose these children deserved to die? And the King's Guard? "I'll kill you all and sort it out later."

Boy! What a protagonist! /sarcasm

And a big thing that y'all are overlooking is that "Dark Trace" is NOT some alter ego that was created during his rampage days that he suppressed after having his memories stripped away. It is simply Trace as he is now AFTER losing all of his memories but then finding out how much power he can unlock. The only influence creating Dark Trace is his own realizations of his potential power. "I don't need anything else except these powers."

Put in short, Trace was a dick growing up, Trace was a super dick as an adult, Trace was a murderous super dick after losing Saria and vowing hyper-revenge, and Trace is a murderous super dick now just because he's got power, (and he thinks about Flora on occasion).

The amount of time that you praise Trace for being a "protagonist" is an incredibly short period of time, (interspersed with child murder) whereas a majority of his life is spent unrepentantly having a moral compass that reads somewhere between "worse than Keiren on a bad day" to "literally Hitler."
First off, young and adult Trace were not “dicks.” He was raised in a world where different races rarely interacted unless they were stabbing each other, slavery was a widespread and accepted practice, the default form of government was the absolute monarchy, and any discussion of "civil rights" extended only to whether someone should be tortured before they were killed. Trace was a product of his environment, as are the other members of the cast (which I'll get to later).

Yes, Trace purchased a slave. Chances are slave ownership was a sign of wealth or social status where he lived, much like in the American South before the Civil War. In any case, as I recall this was meant as a gift to his wife to help her with housework rather than a field laborer or “test subject” for magic research. His expression when Saria objected to this was surprise and confusion rather than anger, as if he had never encountered this viewpoint before; this indicates antislavery views aren’t exactly common. If you're taught from birth that segregation and slavery are right–-or even worse, supported by a divine mandate–-then you will believe it, and accept it without a second thought. Incidentally, was it ever confirmed whether said slave was kept, or whether the Legacies ever obtained more before Saria's death?

Secondly, I fail to see how Trace as an embryonic Templar was in any way a “super dick.” He was annoyed that Humans and Keidran weren’t fighting, but that struck me more as a desire to have an adventure and put his magic skills to use–in other words, how the average male juvenile has viewed war through most of human history. He was melting into a desk job and wanted something to break to doldrums; that’s a far cry from pushing for genocide. He certainly acted immaturely after meeting Saria, what with staging mock battles with Nora in an effort to impress her and causing extensive property damage. However, these actions are less characteristic of a “dick” than they are of a “horny young man” clueless in the arts of wooing and willing to do stupid things to look macho in the eyes of his crush.

Yes, Trace dabbled in black magic at the academy. This is probably the most reckless and short-sighted thing he did during this period, and speaks to a certain degree of arrogance and carelessness in his character. However, he was in his late teens/early twenties, when you know you can take on the world, and who cares what those old squares say about things like alcohol or other potentially dangerous habits. Trace was one of the most gifted and powerful magic users of his generation, and even attracted the interest of the Grand Templar herself. The guy was hot bird droppings and he knew it; surely he could succeed where others had failed, as long as he was really careful? In any case, this was before he met Saria, and his motives didn’t seem any more nefarious than pushing himself and seeking knowledge where no-one else seemed willing. His decision to use black magic to resurrect his dead wife was influenced by his pride, to say nothing of the irrational grief at the loss of a loved one.

The effects of black magic on one's body and mind has been covered at length both in-comic and on the forums, so we'll say no more about it here. Suffice to say, Trace was not in his right mind when he overthrew the Templar and became Wizard Hitler.

Finally, racism as a character trait is hardly exclusive to Trace Legacy. When Group B first encountered Flora in the bathhouse they referred to her as an "it" as well, and continued dehumanizing Sythe even after he risked his life to save them during their village's destruction. (Even before that, Maren and Karen refused to serve Keidran in their tavern.) Kei came from a slaveowning family and abandoned his friendship with Flora when it became socially unacceptable; though he made amends with her, he still hates wolves with a passion. Eric is a freaking slave trader who actively subjugates his property's free will with control spells despite considering Kathryn part of his family. Mary Silverlock, the humane former Grand Templar, only saw fit to stop an innocent keidran girl's lynching after discovering her boy-toy was connected to her in some way. (Furthermore, despite forgiving Euchre and having a hybrid daughter she still considers Keidran "[their] enemies"). And that's not even counting the non-human cast. Zen and Natani had absolutely no problem killing anyone who wasn't a wolf, and Keith hated Keidran to the point where he attacked Flora within 5 seconds of meeting her. Flora herself initially planned to seduce Trace to kill the Grand Templar, and still has issues trusting humans after what she and her family went through. Even the wise and worldly Lady Nora mentioned dragons view mortals as "low folk," initially referred to Flora as "that thing," and couldn't be bothered to stop her mentally damaged friend from slaughtering Keidran by the wagonload. Are we to condemn all these people as well?

I am not a white knight for Trace Legacy; the man has done terrible things and has a great deal to atone for. At this point my views on him are “ambivalently sympathetic,” and everything will depend on what the man does moving forwards. If he cuts and runs from his problems despite seeing all the suffering his actions have caused (and continue to cause), then he will get it from both barrels. If, however, he takes responsibility for his actions--whether he was in his right mind or not--and tries to make things right, then he will have earned his redemption.
Can't find much fault with your analysis. Though Flora was not planning to kill Trace until she learned who he was. And even then she eventually couldn't bring herself to do. And Keith, yeah he did hate Keidran but he still had and has feelings for Laura.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#55 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Just my two bits on the whole Euchre debate:
Euchre had a very difficult situation at hand, his cover was about to be blown and his cousin about to be hanged. Wich is by no means a nice way to go, he then proceeded to handle it in the worst was possible way by not doing anything,
Warrl wrote: Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:12 pm "She's a slave of one of our neighbors. Not a very smart one either, she barely learned to understand a bit of human speech. Something must be up if they'd send her with a message for me."
Of course, explaining why she didn't have suitable documentation for the task (and was using an illusion charm instead) would still be a problem. Perhaps one that could be handled by ignoring it and raising a distraction - (after some conversation in keidran) "Oh, my mother is ill. I need to go home for a bit. I'll take care of returning her."
But then again, that might not work.
This plan would have been a better strategy and if he failed, at least he tried something. But the whole debacle had a point, at least in my opinion:
Before we knew about this he was this weird white wolf with an uncanny interest on the party who seemed willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. This whole arc was to knock him down a notch from martyr to a more relatable/realistic/flawed/interesting character.
He does comes as self-centered and self serving on occasion but has helped the party, her daughter and ex in multiple occasions and seems to bear no ill-will to them as he could have turned them over to the templar ages ago. Yet as we do not really now his true long-term intentions judging him at this particular time is hard. All the good he has done could simply be to further his Machiavellian plans or maybe he has the best interest of them all at heart.
So in short, i don't find this character inherently bad but he has committed some really big mistakes in his life and we do not know what he wants to do.

On another topic
James Polymer wrote: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:44 am First off, young and adult Trace were not “dicks.” He was raised in a world where different races rarely interacted unless they were stabbing each other, slavery was a widespread and accepted practice, the default form of government was the absolute monarchy, and any discussion of "civil rights" extended only to whether someone should be tortured before they were killed. Trace was a product of his environment, as are the other members of the cast (which I'll get to later).

Yes, Trace purchased a slave. Chances are slave ownership was a sign of wealth or social status where he lived, much like in the American South before the Civil War. In any case, as I recall this was meant as a gift to his wife to help her with housework rather than a field laborer or “test subject” for magic research. His expression when Saria objected to this was surprise and confusion rather than anger, as if he had never encountered this viewpoint before; this indicates antislavery views aren’t exactly common. If you're taught from birth that segregation and slavery are right–-or even worse, supported by a divine mandate–-then you will believe it, and accept it without a second thought. Incidentally, was it ever confirmed whether said slave was kept, or whether the Legacies ever obtained more before Saria's death?

Secondly, I fail to see how Trace as an embryonic Templar was in any way a “super dick.” He was annoyed that Humans and Keidran weren’t fighting, but that struck me more as a desire to have an adventure and put his magic skills to use–in other words, how the average male juvenile has viewed war through most of human history. He was melting into a desk job and wanted something to break to doldrums; that’s a far cry from pushing for genocide. He certainly acted immaturely after meeting Saria, what with staging mock battles with Nora in an effort to impress her and causing extensive property damage. However, these actions are less characteristic of a “dick” than they are of a “horny young man” clueless in the arts of wooing and willing to do stupid things to look macho in the eyes of his crush.

Yes, Trace dabbled in black magic at the academy. This is probably the most reckless and short-sighted thing he did during this period, and speaks to a certain degree of arrogance and carelessness in his character. However, he was in his late teens/early twenties, when you know you can take on the world, and who cares what those old squares say about things like alcohol or other potentially dangerous habits. Trace was one of the most gifted and powerful magic users of his generation, and even attracted the interest of the Grand Templar herself. The guy was hot bird droppings and he knew it; surely he could succeed where others had failed, as long as he was really careful? In any case, this was before he met Saria, and his motives didn’t seem any more nefarious than pushing himself and seeking knowledge where no-one else seemed willing. His decision to use black magic to resurrect his dead wife was influenced by his pride, to say nothing of the irrational grief at the loss of a loved one.

The effects of black magic on one's body and mind has been covered at length both in-comic and on the forums, so we'll say no more about it here. Suffice to say, Trace was not in his right mind when he overthrew the Templar and became Wizard Hitler.

Finally, racism as a character trait is hardly exclusive to Trace Legacy. When Group B first encountered Flora in the bathhouse they referred to her as an "it" as well, and continued dehumanizing Sythe even after he risked his life to save them during their village's destruction. (Even before that, Maren and Karen refused to serve Keidran in their tavern.) Kei came from a slaveowning family and abandoned his friendship with Flora when it became socially unacceptable; though he made amends with her, he still hates wolves with a passion. Eric is a freaking slave trader who actively subjugates his property's free will with control spells despite considering Kathryn part of his family. Mary Silverlock, the humane former Grand Templar, only saw fit to stop an innocent keidran girl's lynching after discovering her boy-toy was connected to her in some way. (Furthermore, despite forgiving Euchre and having a hybrid daughter she still considers Keidran "[their] enemies"). And that's not even counting the non-human cast. Zen and Natani had absolutely no problem killing anyone who wasn't a wolf, and Keith hated Keidran to the point where he attacked Flora within 5 seconds of meeting her. Flora herself initially planned to seduce Trace to kill the Grand Templar, and still has issues trusting humans after what she and her family went through. Even the wise and worldly Lady Nora mentioned dragons view mortals as "low folk," initially referred to Flora as "that thing," and couldn't be bothered to stop her mentally damaged friend from slaughtering Keidran by the wagonload. Are we to condemn all these people as well?

I am not a white knight for Trace Legacy; the man has done terrible things and has a great deal to atone for. At this point my views on him are “ambivalently sympathetic,” and everything will depend on what the man does moving forwards. If he cuts and runs from his problems despite seeing all the suffering his actions have caused (and continue to cause), then he will get it from both barrels. If, however, he takes responsibility for his actions--whether he was in his right mind or not--and tries to make things right, then he will have earned his redemption.
This!!! I was gonna say something along these lines on my previous post but I am glad i forgot. You made the point much better.
Trace prior to becoming a widow was a bit of a racist but it was hardly his most important trait. That is the world were he lives, sure it is goddamn horrible but that is the only way he understood the world prior meeting Saria.
After his necromancy experiments things went down the gutter and Trace went from that weird uncle we all have who makes inappropriate comments at Thanksgiving/Christmas dinner to Grand Wizard Trace Legacy Genocidal-Maniac and Keidran-Murder extraordinaire ™*
And finally as you point out we will judge Trace not for what he has done but for what he will do to atone for it.


*I did not came up with this title but it was too funny not o use again
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#56 Post by whiskeyfur »

I think regardless of how people might see Euchre... how Rose sees her cousin is far and different than how Trace or Flora might.

Rose was nearly KILLED by Euchre's decision. That is not something you let go of. Euchre might be liked by X, Y, Z.. but as far as Rose is concerned, he should go burn at the bottom of hell for what he did. There is no reasoning with this, this is pure emotion and that's not something that will bend to logic.

If he was there in person I have no doubt she would have her claws dug into his throat VERY quickly. But seeing as he was smart enough to only use an projection, all she can do is let that hatred simmer.

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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#57 Post by Hulk10 »

whiskeyfur wrote: Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:20 pm I think regardless of how people might see Euchre... how Rose sees her cousin is far and different than how Trace or Flora might.

Rose was nearly KILLED by Euchre's decision. That is not something you let go of. Euchre might be liked by X, Y, Z.. but as far as Rose is concerned, he should go burn at the bottom of hell for what he did. There is no reasoning with this, this is pure emotion and that's not something that will bend to logic.

If he was there in person I have no doubt she would have her claws dug into his throat VERY quickly. But seeing as he was smart enough to only use an projection, all she can do is let that hatred simmer.
And if Rose still feels hatred towards her cousin I doubt they will ever be reconciled.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#58 Post by ZeroJinKui »

Dadrobit wrote: Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:23 am Because Kei has shown positive character growth towards overcoming some of his prejudices, and everything he's done or attempted to do while on page has been for the betterment of his people or Flora.

And for a large portion of owning Flora, she was not just a pet, they were best friends; Kei even used to stand up for her until peer pressure finally got to him at the end.

But for that one transgression well in the past, all y'all only see him as a character deserving of being slowly butchered and dying alone? All the while Trace kills hundreds of thousands of people, potentially even Flora's parents included, and is actively shown doing [censored] like tearing innocent keidran limb from limb and impaling them on stakes (actions for which he has not shown remorse) and he gets a pass?

Y'all be trippin'. :mrgrin:
to be fair, trace wasn't always evil, the fact that he has turned back into such a pure, lovable person proves that.

kei, however, was always the way he is, and always will be.

people saying euchre is selfish, but not kei, makes no sense to me.

i stand by what i said about kei.
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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#59 Post by Warrl »

Kei:
* Is very much a product of his environment
* Is quick to jump to conclusions
* Has a hard time thinking of things from other people's perspective
* Has good intentions, sometimes badly implemented (often because of the previous items in this list)

In other words, he's just an ordinary human. Neither particularly good nor particularly bad.

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Re: Comic for March 24, 2018

#60 Post by Hulk10 »

Its true that Kei is a product of his environment and Trace wasn't always evil. This comic has a wide range of individuals who aren't really evil. There are those who are but most are not.
Hulk is strongest one there is -Incredible Hulk

In the name of the Mighty Legions of Predacons who preceded me I shall never again bow to your charge! But, I will heed your previous advice and face my true enemy AS A BEAST! -Predaking.

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