Rant/Vent/sad thread

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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21781 Post by MoonSticks »

I love her so much, but baby moon getting me up at this time (3:50am in the uk) is becoming tiresome :(

Kids: a good night sleep? Who needs it? (;_;)
|D :heart: MOMMY MOON :heart: |D

:heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:

STOP FEEDING ME MARSBARS!...

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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21782 Post by Tesla Foxtrot »

MoonSticks wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:54 am I love her so much, but baby moon getting me up at this time (3:50am in the uk) is becoming tiresome :(

Kids: a good night sleep? Who needs it? (;_;)
Awww. Wish you well :c
Must be tought to be a parent. Specially a mother. (;_;)
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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21783 Post by Warrl »

MoonSticks wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:54 am I love her so much, but baby moon getting me up at this time (3:50am in the uk) is becoming tiresome :(

Kids: a good night sleep? Who needs it? (;_;)
Pretty much every parent has been there. It sucks. It's worth it.

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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21784 Post by MoonSticks »

Yeah, she is :heart:
|D :heart: MOMMY MOON :heart: |D

:heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:

STOP FEEDING ME MARSBARS!...

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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21785 Post by Dadrobit »

Zakkerus wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:37 pm
Tetrahedron wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:51 pm
Zakkerus wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:50 pm money
money
money
Well I for one disagree. :mrgrin:

First of all, sure, he currently pulls about $4600 a month, however, it has not always been so, and his YTD earnings at this point are nowhere near $55k as just a few months ago, he was making half of that $4600.

Second, this is before taxes. Base self-employment tax is currently at a bit over 15%, so knock off about $700 a month, basically almost all the income from the Nora Cards goes poof.

Third, you're not paying for just a $200 color, you're paying for the 15 years of experience that he's put into his craft allowing for him to make that card happen in the first place. An Army Officer of 15 years is going to be pulling more than Tom, and Enlisted will be making fairly comparable money, and will probably be even better off after BAH/S allowances.

The $200 price tag may make some people unhappy because it's out of their range, but that's missing the point. It's not there to make people happy, it's there to make Tom money.

As someone who is self-employed, I am very much in-favor of being able to ask for what you believe your talents are worth, irrespective of anything else. And if people are paying for what I believe my time is worth, then the price is right.
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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21786 Post by Zakkerus »

Dadrobit wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:09 pm
Zakkerus wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:37 pm
Tetrahedron wrote: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:51 pm
Zakkerus wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:50 pm money
money
money
Well I for one disagree. :mrgrin:

First of all, sure, he currently pulls about $4600 a month, however, it has not always been so, and his YTD earnings at this point are nowhere near $55k as just a few months ago, he was making half of that $4600.

Second, this is before taxes. Base self-employment tax is currently at a bit over 15%, so knock off about $700 a month, basically almost all the income from the Nora Cards goes poof.

Third, you're not paying for just a $200 color, you're paying for the 15 years of experience that he's put into his craft allowing for him to make that card happen in the first place. An Army Officer of 15 years is going to be pulling more than Tom, and Enlisted will be making fairly comparable money, and will probably be even better off after BAH/S allowances.

The $200 price tag may make some people unhappy because it's out of their range, but that's missing the point. It's not there to make people happy, it's there to make Tom money.

As someone who is self-employed, I am very much in-favor of being able to ask for what you believe your talents are worth, irrespective of anything else. And if people are paying for what I believe my time is worth, then the price is right.
I did the math you told me to do and that's still a lot of money he's making.

(Oh, and, as of recently, now the Patreon earning is $4,701.)

Also, with this thing you said: "Third, you're not paying for just a $200 color, you're paying for the 15 years of experience that he's put into his craft allowing for him to make that card happen in the first place." So, are you saying that since I've been making myself a bowl of cereal for food for quite awhile now, that I can say that I've been crafting my cereal making art for well over 15 years, and now I can demand 200 for every bowl I made, even if I technically made that bowl before, right?

And, no offense, but this: "The $200 price tag may make some people unhappy because it's out of their range, but that's missing the point. It's not there to make people happy, it's there to make Tom money." kind of sounds like something Ajit Pai would say, just replace a word or two. Really, I'm not meaning to offend, just putting things in different perspectives. A Devil's advocate, I suppose.

But, yeah, if you're poor, or basically poor and have to worry about every expense, you'll have a completely different view on this kind of stuff. And that's one of the reasons why I'm so bitter on this money stuff. Heh, I mean, I'd be super ecstatic if someone were to give me 15, or even 7 dollars for something I do a lot of. If someone were to give me 200 dollars for writing a story (I used to draw, but now I don't due to certain circumstances. So, I'll just use writing as an example), I'd feel guilty and probably wouldn't accept that much. Because once an artist or a writer thinks too much of their art, and doesn't criticize it a lot, then, heh, well, you know.

So, yeah. I'm not meaning to be mean, or rude, and I'm sorry if it came out that way. It's just... Some of this stuff makes my blood boil, since, heh, I really can't even afford to be a 10 patron right now. There's other personal stuff too, but I'm sure you don't want to hear about some poor person's life story, huh?

(Also, sorry again if it sounded rude or insulting, that's not the point of my intention, or the way I meant for it to be perceived; I can't stress this enough.)

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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21787 Post by SirJahar »

I see where you're coming from. All too often poeple begin to think, frankly, too much of their work and feel they are worth too much.
I see this in art most of all. While your skill and craft are worth something, the price for two people of compravle skill level in the same media can very wildly based on how well known they are. And THAT is what makes my blood boil about all this, is how much of it basicly becomes Branding.

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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21788 Post by Zakkerus »

SirJahar wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:53 am I see where you're coming from. All too often poeple begin to think, frankly, too much of their work and feel they are worth too much.
I see this in art most of all. While your skill and craft are worth something, the price for two people of compravle skill level in the same media can very wildly based on how well known they are. And THAT is what makes my blood boil about all this, is how much of it basicly becomes Branding.
Yeah, I can see how that'd make your blood boil. That also makes me feel somewhat the same way also. It's like people are willing to pay any ludicrous amount, just because Tom Richbach is coloring it. Ha, I've seen some small time artists only accept 25 dollars for gorgeous artwork that's full of brilliant colors, and many different characters, and at times it'd almost look real. It looked like it would have cost a whole lot more than that!

Then you have Richbach with his 200 dollar coloring. S:P

And yeah, an artist or writer thinking too much of their own creations can often time lead to their own downfall, or that they think they're so high, that they might even think themselves untouchable, in a way. Wee see this all the time with celebrities and the like, and we all know how tha usually ends up...

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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21789 Post by Dadrobit »

Zakkerus wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:09 pm Communism Is Great (on paper)
You did the math?

Before taxes, at $4700 a month, he'll be pulling $56,400 a year. The average salary wage for Cincinnati where Tom lives, is $52,344. So he makes about 4K more or 7% above the average. You're calling him names for having the audacity to make 7% more than the average person in his community? Come on man, let the guy have his bit.

Let's do the military math too while I'm here.

An E-7 with 15 years is making $4,245 a month baseline. That puts them at $50,940. But throw in BAH for Cincinnati which without dependents is $1,530 a month bringing the total up to $69,300. Throw in $368 for BAS and you get $73,716.

O-4 after 15 years is pulling $7,432 monthly or $89,184 per year. BAH is an extra $2,046 bringing that up to $113,736. BAS is $253 and in the end, the officer makes $116,772.

Both of these soldiers are effectively making well more than Tom, but I'd love to see your math that lets you bemoan so.

My sources:

Cincinnati Pay Rates
Enlisted Time To Rank
Officer Time To Rank
Enlisted Pay
Officer Pay
BAH calculator
BAS Rates

And comparing Tom's work to making a bowl of cereal... Really? Way to belittle his work man. The dude often spends 2+ hours on each Card and regularly well more than that on each page.

//SARCASM// But okay, the one minute you spend on making breakfast totally compares to his work. //SARCASM END//

Ajit Pai? Nice low-key Godwin's Law there. But you defeat your own antagonisms anyways. There are only so many ISPs, and fewer that provide competent service. But later you mention that there are tons of artists, often with just as high quality work for cheaper. I never said all artists should charge big bucks, just they should charge what they believe they're worth, and plenty of artists DO charge very competitive rates as you mentioned.

But Tom charges high and that's just fine; it's a luxury to get his work done and some luxuries are just more expensive than others. Hell, I know of an artist that charges 4x that just for a personal character to be shoved into a picture, and they do very well for themselves and that's just fine too.

You are not prevented from taking a lower priced piece of work of the same quality; you have that choice and I never once said you shouldn't have it or anything near that allegation a la the style of Ajit Pai.
SirJahar wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:53 am Blood Boiling
Zakkerus wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:09 pm Blood Boiling
Why though?

Patreon is just an avenue for people who like Tom to provide monetary support so that he can ~Continue~ to provide what he already has been providing: Twokinds. The perks that patreons get for donating more than others are simply luxuries. If you only throw down $10, then you have the luxury of making a suggestion, and if you nab a $200 NC, then you have the luxury of getting a sketch done in full color.

But that's all that they are, luxuries. And unfortunately, not all of us can afford luxuries like $200 colors or even $10 suggestions. Having spent several years of my life living out of a one room trailer with a leaky roof on a minimum wage job with very few luxuries, I get that being poor sucks, I really, really do, BUT I don't see the rationale behind getting angry at Tom for it. In the same way that I'm not gonna be angry that I can't afford a new fully-loaded Focus RS because that would be a big luxury purchase that I can't afford and don't actually need, Tom's art is the same way. But so long as NCs have enough demand to consistently be taken at $200, and Tom is happy with that price, then it's totally alright.

The whole purpose is to support the continuation of Twokinds and I personally support Tom within my means through the $10 tier as I can't sensibly throw down $200 for a luxury like that. But I celebrate the fact that the $200 NCs are always full. Tom is literally living the American Dream working out of his home, doing what he loves, and even making a little more that the average person of his community doing it. Hater's gonna hate I suppose, but as someone who aspires to be at least just as successful for himself, I'm certainly not one of them.
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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21790 Post by Him »

Zakkerus wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:09 pmAlso, with this thing you said: "Third, you're not paying for just a $200 color, you're paying for the 15 years of experience that he's put into his craft allowing for him to make that card happen in the first place." So, are you saying that since I've been making myself a bowl of cereal for food for quite awhile now, that I can say that I've been crafting my cereal making art for well over 15 years, and now I can demand 200 for every bowl I made, even if I technically made that bowl before, right?
That is nothing even comparable to what Tom does. His art has improved by leaps and bounds over the years through effort and repetition. His art is so good people pay $200 for him to update or color a sketch he has done. Tom is not extorting his audience or anything by doing this, no one is obligated to sign up for his Patreon.
Zakkerus wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:09 pmAnd, no offense, but this: "The $200 price tag may make some people unhappy because it's out of their range, but that's missing the point. It's not there to make people happy, it's there to make Tom money." kind of sounds like something Ajit Pai would say, just replace a word or two.
Except this isn't anything as invasive or freedom encroaching as that. This is people choosing to buy art- that is all.
Zakkerus wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:09 pmBut, yeah, if you're poor, or basically poor and have to worry about every expense, you'll have a completely different view on this kind of stuff. And that's one of the reasons why I'm so bitter on this money stuff.
I am confused why you have a problem with this. If you have to worry about every expense then you don't need to be buying art. It's not really fair to be mad at someone for offering their services at a price people are willing to pay just because not everyone can afford it.

For the original complaint about how Tom makes more than a soldier, I can see why that might upset you a bit. However, I still disagree with that kind of thinking. I am a volunteer fire fighter and I get paid ten dollars- It isn't ten dollars an hour, either, it is ten dollars per call I am on. It's just enough to cover the cost of gas to get to and from my fire station. This means I am required to run into literal burning buildings, I have to clean up dead bodies, and I will be working with toxic substances constantly. My job has awful pay and it is not safe. While I am no soldier I feel what I do is something of a similar caliber. I cannot claim either one is more dangerous, but I know both jobs are very risky. One thing is for certain though, I am paid substantially less than any soldier. Yes, this is because I am a volunteer, but does not change the fact that I am still a fire fighter. I do not feel that Tom getting paid for doing artwork is some injustice. He worked hard and his profession pays well because of it. If something bad happened to him, like breaking his hand, I cannot imagine the amount of financial stress it would put on him. Getting paid a decent sum will help give Tom a cushion to support himself with if such a thing were to happen.

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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21791 Post by FiendishlyAdorable »

Zakkerus wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:09 pmBecause once an artist or a writer thinks too much of their art, and doesn't criticize it a lot, then, heh, well, you know.
It's not an unusual price for an artist selling their work. Like most things, the price isn't universally set for art, but $100-200 is pretty standard around DeviantArt and other mediums.

I can't afford that kind of thing, but art can be a pretty expensive career choice, more so than writing in terms of raw materials. I bought an assortment of art markers a while back, and they sold for $2.99 each on sale. The prices they charge for nice art supplies can be absolutely ridiculous. That doesn't even begin to mention the prices of tablets and art/editing programs. The digital tablet I'm saving up for after I'm done with school in a few years and have a job and apartment or house was over $1,000 when it came out. I'm hoping the price will have dropped by then.
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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21792 Post by Zakkerus »

With that "Ajit Pai comparison" thing, I was referencing how Dadrobit put: "The $200 price tag may make some people unhappy because it's out of their range, but that's missing the point. It's not there to make people happy, it's there to make Tom money." you said that it's only just there to make Richbach, money, right? Well, isn't that prick, Ajit Pai, just doing this so he can get money, then once he stops being the chairman he'll get some easy job at Verizon, or some other company like that were he gets paid big bucks for nothing.

Also with the: "And comparing Tom's work to making a bowl of cereal... Really? Way to belittle his work man. The dude often spends 2+ hours on each Card and regularly well more than that on each page." Ya ever heard of a metaphor, Dadrobit? I wasn't being literal, I could've put anything in place of cereal. And 2+ hours? *Gasp* That's such a long time! It's not like people spend 14+ hours a day at a job they hate where they make significantly less than that and contemplate really bad things just to get out of the endless loop of misery, no, that never happens...

And with Him's comment: "That is nothing even comparable to what Tom does. His art has improved by leaps and bounds over the years through effort and repetition. His art is so good people pay $200 for him to update or color a sketch he has done. Tom is not extorting his audience or anything by doing this, no one is obligated to sign up for his Patreon." Once again, a little metaphor that's meant to be a fill-in-the-blank scenario.
My cereal-making skills have improved too, you know. I can even pour the milk in all by my self now!
And with the art thing, here's the simple truth, since it's Richbach who's coloring them and it's the "TwoKinds" brand, whatever amount he sets forth, even if it's stupidly ridiculous, I'm pretty sure that there's always someone willing to pay, because they're so infatuated and obsessed with him and his stuff. Someone's always willing to pay something, and just because four people are willing to pay that amount (and lock the four spots down because it's always the same four people), doesn't mean that's a good price; it's just a price that other rich people are willing to pay.

You know... I wonder (this is just a purely hypothetical scenario, and not even a full thought, don't lose your lids, please), if Richbach snapped (haha, it's funny, because now he's living the high life and has no worries or stress) and did something really bad, how many of you would still be obsessed with Richbach and his coloring pages and art?

*Sigh*... Nevermind, I figured that saying something "wrong" about Richbach and his coloring was somewhat of a bad idea. Heh, some might be so blinded that they're willing to defend anything about him, be honest. Not too many people understood the core at what I was trying to get at.

(I didn't use the quoting option because, well, it would've taken a bit longer than just copying and pasting would've, and because I would've had to quote really weirdly, and the option can be slightly capricious for me.)

Sorry if this offends, once again, that's not the source of my intention. And perhaps I'm letting some personal stuff fly out a bit too. Sorry again.

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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21793 Post by Akira110 »

Zakkerus wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:09 pm Because once an artist or a writer thinks too much of their art, and doesn't criticize it a lot, then, heh, well, you know.
This grinds my gears right here. People always separate authors from other artists, which really seems like it's implying literature isn't a form of art. Which is quite disrespectful to authors such as myself.
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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21794 Post by SirSlaughter »

Oh man, I haven't seen people post stuff this long or in depth since I first joined. Keep that [censored] up.
Also to pipe in on the military pay thing. Someone mentioned that if a service member dies then it's like "sorry your loved one died while making peanuts for money, but hey here's a flag lol", but to chime in on that, we have health insurance...damn good health insurance at that.
You know... I wonder (this is just a purely hypothetical scenario, and not even a full thought, don't lose your lids, please), if Richbach snapped (haha, it's funny, because now he's living the high life and has no worries or stress) and did something really bad, how many of you would still be obsessed with Richbach and his coloring pages and art?
Look man, I have tattoos based off of one of his drawings, you don't see me making a shrine to his name or anything.
Even I have my qualms with the comic and a few of the decisions. Such as when the comic went strictly PG, the redesign for King Adelaide (I want Pre-explosion King back :heart: ), and the lack of people getting skewered. The last "juicy" death we had was
Spoiler!
When the Strength General got Asploded all over the jail floor, but even that was "cleaned up" later on if you look at the original compared to the new page.
So no I'm not gonna idolize this comic or its creator by any means.

However like others have said, once you make a career of something you have to charge what you think you are worth. If people think you are also worth tat much in terms of skills, then they will pay.
When I did computer technician work I would charge $100 just to build a PC not including the cost of parts and stuff, this is also before any kind of "specialty work" like custom liquid cooling, custom fabrication of parts, themed builds, etc. I have a few friends that said I was ripping people off, well the people who tipped me $40 extra after the build didn't think so if they were willing to give me a $40 tip on top of the $100 build fee and then cost of the PC.

figured I would chime in, not many people making long posts the last couple of years.

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Re: Rant/Vent/sad thread

#21795 Post by Zakkerus »

Akira110 wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:12 pm
Zakkerus wrote: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:09 pm Because once an artist or a writer thinks too much of their art, and doesn't criticize it a lot, then, heh, well, you know.
This grinds my gears right here. People always separate authors from other artists, which really seems like it's implying literature isn't a form of art. Which is quite disrespectful to authors such as myself.
I'm also an author, of sorts. I don't really get paid to write, but I still do it. I just seperated it in that sentence because some people don't think that way. I certainly do. Because I think that even some video games, and music soundtracks can be a form of art also. So, I definitely think that an author is an artist. The main reason I seperated it is because, heh, saying "drawer" kinda loses its pizzazz. Or people might think I'm talking about the thing you put your clothes in (you know, 'cause it's spelled the same).
SirSlaughter wrote: Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:57 pm Oh man, I haven't seen people post stuff this long or in depth since I first joined. Keep that [censored] up.
Also to pipe in on the military pay thing. Someone mentioned that if a service member dies then it's like "sorry your loved one died while making peanuts for money, but hey here's a flag lol", but to chime in on that, we have health insurance...damn good health insurance at that.
You know... I wonder (this is just a purely hypothetical scenario, and not even a full thought, don't lose your lids, please), if Richbach snapped (haha, it's funny, because now he's living the high life and has no worries or stress) and did something really bad, how many of you would still be obsessed with Richbach and his coloring pages and art?
Look man, I have tattoos based off of one of his drawings, you don't see me making a shrine to his name or anything.
Isn't one's body already considered a temple or a shrine of sorts to some people?

And yes, heh, I suppose this is becoming rather lengthy, isn't it? Who knew I'd cause so much controversy by being a naysayer to certain monetary things? (I for one kind of figured, since, you know, the site I'm on and such.)

(I also figured out how to properly use the quoting function, I think. *claps hands together*)

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