New Trace's Allignment

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Hulk10
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New Trace's Allignment

#1 Post by Hulk10 »

I wonder if new Trace really is a good person. I personally think he is but not everyone agrees.
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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#2 Post by Schrodinger »

Trace isn't the same person that he was before. Prior to page one he was a genocidal monster driven mad by grief over the death of a loved one at the hands of the very people that she defended. As of now, he's a naive young man just trying to escape the baggage of a life full of suffering and death. His arc now isn't to redeem himself, that would require insight and the ability to reflect on his actions. Neutral stripped him of that chance. The challenge now is if Trace will choose to set right and undo the actions of a vengeful widower.
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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#3 Post by Hulk10 »

Schrodinger wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:05 pm Trace isn't the same person that he was before. Prior to page one he was a genocidal monster driven mad by grief over the death of a loved one at the hands of the very people that she defended. As of now, he's a naive young man just trying to escape the baggage of a life full of suffering and death. His arc now isn't to redeem himself, that would require insight and the ability to reflect on his actions. Neutral stripped him of that chance. The challenge now is if Trace will choose to set right and undo the actions of a vengeful widower.
Good analysis.
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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#4 Post by Neptune »

Schrodinger wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:05 pm Trace isn't the same person that he was before. Prior to page one he was a genocidal monster driven mad by grief over the death of a loved one at the hands of the very people that she defended. As of now, he's a naive young man just trying to escape the baggage of a life full of suffering and death. His arc now isn't to redeem himself, that would require insight and the ability to reflect on his actions. Neutral stripped him of that chance. The challenge now is if Trace will choose to set right and undo the actions of a vengeful widower.
The problem is that Trace doesn't really seem to care about it. It's pretty likely that Trace is fully aware of the [censored]-up [censored] he did a few months prior; he hasn't actually apologized or regretted for what he's done. Maybe it's because Trace has overall very little personality except "I love Flora," even though that kind of fractures at times (remember when Flora almost went hog wild at some festival and her boyfriend/fiancé didn't care?).
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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#5 Post by Hulk10 »

Neptune wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:53 am
Schrodinger wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:05 pm Trace isn't the same person that he was before. Prior to page one he was a genocidal monster driven mad by grief over the death of a loved one at the hands of the very people that she defended. As of now, he's a naive young man just trying to escape the baggage of a life full of suffering and death. His arc now isn't to redeem himself, that would require insight and the ability to reflect on his actions. Neutral stripped him of that chance. The challenge now is if Trace will choose to set right and undo the actions of a vengeful widower.
The problem is that Trace doesn't really seem to care about it. It's pretty likely that Trace is fully aware of the [censored] [censored] he did a few months prior; he hasn't actually apologized or regretted for what he's done. Maybe it's because Trace has overall very little personality except "I love Flora," even though that kind of fractures at times (remember when Flora almost went hog wild at some festival and her boyfriend/fiancé didn't care?).
He seems to care about it from my perspective.
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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#6 Post by Schrodinger »

Hulk10 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:57 am
Neptune wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:53 am
Schrodinger wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:05 pm Trace isn't the same person that he was before. Prior to page one he was a genocidal monster driven mad by grief over the death of a loved one at the hands of the very people that she defended. As of now, he's a naive young man just trying to escape the baggage of a life full of suffering and death. His arc now isn't to redeem himself, that would require insight and the ability to reflect on his actions. Neutral stripped him of that chance. The challenge now is if Trace will choose to set right and undo the actions of a vengeful widower.
The problem is that Trace doesn't really seem to care about it. It's pretty likely that Trace is fully aware of the [censored] [censored] he did a few months prior; he hasn't actually apologized or regretted for what he's done. Maybe it's because Trace has overall very little personality except "I love Flora," even though that kind of fractures at times (remember when Flora almost went hog wild at some festival and her boyfriend/fiancé didn't care?).
He seems to care about it from my perspective.
He does care about it. In as much as he wants to high-tail it to some reclusive place that accepts interspecies relationships. When Trace stepped forward in Edinmire to talk down the terrorists acting in his name it was the first time that he'd actually done something to address the violence and hatred he helped create. Now we just need some follow through! Maybe they get to Lyn'Knoll and then Trace, in a moment of self-reflection, decides that instead of hiding himself away he'll instead confront the Templar and take down the organization he usurped and corrupted.
What was it the spider said to the fly...

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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#7 Post by Hulk10 »

Schrodinger wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:30 am
Hulk10 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:57 am
Neptune wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:53 am
Schrodinger wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:05 pm Trace isn't the same person that he was before. Prior to page one he was a genocidal monster driven mad by grief over the death of a loved one at the hands of the very people that she defended. As of now, he's a naive young man just trying to escape the baggage of a life full of suffering and death. His arc now isn't to redeem himself, that would require insight and the ability to reflect on his actions. Neutral stripped him of that chance. The challenge now is if Trace will choose to set right and undo the actions of a vengeful widower.
The problem is that Trace doesn't really seem to care about it. It's pretty likely that Trace is fully aware of the [censored] [censored] he did a few months prior; he hasn't actually apologized or regretted for what he's done. Maybe it's because Trace has overall very little personality except "I love Flora," even though that kind of fractures at times (remember when Flora almost went hog wild at some festival and her boyfriend/fiancé didn't care?).
He seems to care about it from my perspective.
He does care about it. In as much as he wants to high-tail it to some reclusive place that accepts interspecies relationships. When Trace stepped forward in Edinmire to talk down the terrorists acting in his name it was the first time that he'd actually done something to address the violence and hatred he helped create. Now we just need some follow through! Maybe they get to Lyn'Knoll and then Trace, in a moment of self-reflection, decides that instead of hiding himself away he'll instead confront the Templar and take down the organization he usurped and corrupted.
Hmm maybe.
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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#8 Post by Wobaku »

Neptune wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:53 am The problem is that Trace doesn't really seem to care about it. It's pretty likely that Trace is fully aware of the [censored] [censored] he did a few months prior; he hasn't actually apologized or regretted for what he's done. Maybe it's because Trace has overall very little personality except "I love Flora," even though that kind of fractures at times (remember when Flora almost went hog wild at some festival and her boyfriend/fiancé didn't care?).
Yeah, festival of beasts. Flora literally tries to get into Natani's pants (thinks she's a man) right there in the street, and Trace doesn't so much as make a move until the guy he'd been chatting to (Eric) suggests leaving. Perhaps he was as curious to see Nat's junk as flora...
Hulk10 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:57 am He seems to care about it from my perspective.
Schrodinger wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:30 am He does care about it. In as much as he wants to high-tail it to some reclusive place that accepts interspecies relationships. When Trace stepped forward in Edinmire to talk down the terrorists acting in his name it was the first time that he'd actually done something to address the violence and hatred he helped create. Now we just need some follow through! Maybe they get to Lyn'Knoll and then Trace, in a moment of self-reflection, decides that instead of hiding himself away he'll instead confront the Templar and take down the organization he usurped and corrupted.
The thing is though, you don't have to even go to pre amnesia Trace to see him doing evil stuff, on the Basitin isles he kills all the humans at the tower (yes some of them were definitely horrible people, but I think we can assume a lot of low level Templar are decent people who just think magic is cool and wanted an occupation where they get to play with it) including some smaller humans who are clearly teenage apprentices or something similar. Then he elects to kill all the basitin soldiers and other bystanders there.
Yes, he didn't fully remember who he was and he was half under the influence of dark magic, but that's the same line of thinking as ''it was the drugs what made him do it''. That kind of thinking doesn't hold up in the real world and it shouldn't apply here - this was still new-trace doing these things, not old trace, and he hasn't shown any remorse or acknowledgement for any of this. Saving Maeve, and however many others he saved by stopping the wolf terrorists* was noble, but it doesn't outweigh his murder of people just doing their jobs in my opinion.

*also Reni showed up like a minute after Trace saved Maeve so she would probably have fended them off anyway, they seemed like a fairly cowardly bunch. (Besides the leader/Clovis and the one Reni captured)

Anyway, as I saw in another thread, I think if Trace does manage to make it to Lyn'knoll, a lot of the people living there presumably sought that place out to escape him. I can see his past catching up to him and his story finally coming to a head there.
(And I believe it's been explicitly stated that unless the Templar are stopped, Keidran go extinct, so just getting to Lyn'knoll isn't enough to stop what Trace put in motion.)

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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#9 Post by Hulk10 »

Wobaku wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:40 pm
Neptune wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:53 am The problem is that Trace doesn't really seem to care about it. It's pretty likely that Trace is fully aware of the [censored] [censored] he did a few months prior; he hasn't actually apologized or regretted for what he's done. Maybe it's because Trace has overall very little personality except "I love Flora," even though that kind of fractures at times (remember when Flora almost went hog wild at some festival and her boyfriend/fiancé didn't care?).
Yeah, festival of beasts. Flora literally tries to get into Natani's pants (thinks she's a man) right there in the street, and Trace doesn't so much as make a move until the guy he'd been chatting to (Eric) suggests leaving. Perhaps he was as curious to see Nat's junk as flora...
Hulk10 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:57 am He seems to care about it from my perspective.
Schrodinger wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:30 am He does care about it. In as much as he wants to high-tail it to some reclusive place that accepts interspecies relationships. When Trace stepped forward in Edinmire to talk down the terrorists acting in his name it was the first time that he'd actually done something to address the violence and hatred he helped create. Now we just need some follow through! Maybe they get to Lyn'Knoll and then Trace, in a moment of self-reflection, decides that instead of hiding himself away he'll instead confront the Templar and take down the organization he usurped and corrupted.
The thing is though, you don't have to even go to pre amnesia Trace to see him doing evil stuff, on the Basitin isles he kills all the humans at the tower (yes some of them were definitely horrible people, but I think we can assume a lot of low level Templar are decent people who just think magic is cool and wanted an occupation where they get to play with it) including some smaller humans who are clearly teenage apprentices or something similar. Then he elects to kill all the basitin soldiers and other bystanders there.
Yes, he didn't fully remember who he was and he was half under the influence of dark magic, but that's the same line of thinking as ''it was the drugs what made him do it''. That kind of thinking doesn't hold up in the real world and it shouldn't apply here - this was still new-trace doing these things, not old trace, and he hasn't shown any remorse or acknowledgement for any of this. Saving Maeve, and however many others he saved by stopping the wolf terrorists* was noble, but it doesn't outweigh his murder of people just doing their jobs in my opinion.

*also Reni showed up like a minute after Trace saved Maeve so she would probably have fended them off anyway, they seemed like a fairly cowardly bunch. (Besides the leader/Clovis and the one Reni captured)

Anyway, as I saw in another thread, I think if Trace does manage to make it to Lyn'knoll, a lot of the people living there presumably sought that place out to escape him. I can see his past catching up to him and his story finally coming to a head there.
(And I believe it's been explicitly stated that unless the Templar are stopped, Keidran go extinct, so just getting to Lyn'knoll isn't enough to stop what Trace put in motion.)
True he does need to do more to fully redeem himself. However in my opinion those Templar individuals were enemies, sure its sad that they were killed but it was either them or him and his friends.
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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#10 Post by Wobaku »

Hulk10 wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:15 pm True he does need to do more to fully redeem himself. However in my opinion those Templar individuals were enemies, sure its sad that they were killed but it was either them or him and his friends.
That's just the thing though, he isn't trying to save his friends, save Flora sure, but in that page I linked he intends to kill everyone else there (doesn't seem to remember them) and ''sort it out later''. His level of power is so far above everyone else there it's ludicrous, he has all the power in the world and could do literally anything with that power (given that he levitated an entire wall away the previous page or two he could even have just restrained everyone in the air and talked the whole thing through) but instead he just defaults to kill kill kill.

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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#11 Post by Hulk10 »

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:23 am
Hulk10 wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:15 pm True he does need to do more to fully redeem himself. However in my opinion those Templar individuals were enemies, sure its sad that they were killed but it was either them or him and his friends.
That's just the thing though, he isn't trying to save his friends, save Flora sure, but in that page I linked he intends to kill everyone else there (doesn't seem to remember them) and ''sort it out later''. His level of power is so far above everyone else there it's ludicrous, he has all the power in the world and could do literally anything with that power (given that he levitated an entire wall away the previous page or two he could even have just restrained everyone in the air and talked the whole thing through) but instead he just defaults to kill kill kill.
Actually if you click to the next page it reveals that it was the tower that was feeding his powers. And probably corrupting his mind. Also I don't necessarily think he was planning to kill EVERYONE there.

However I think its not wise to label current Trace as evil as he is still undergoing character development. But that's just my opinion.
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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#12 Post by Wobaku »

Hulk10 wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:41 am Actually if you click to the next page it reveals that it was the tower that was feeding his powers. And probably corrupting his mind. Also I don't necessarily think he was planning to kill EVERYONE there.
Yeah this is true, but this is still New Trace doing this, not Dark Trace or whatever we call him.
He is indeed befuddled by the dark magic, but like I said in my earlier post, the way I view it that logic is is no different from saying that someone who commits a crime while high or drunk is forgiven because ''it wasn't me, it was the drugs!''

The law doesn't take that stance in the real world, it shouldn't apply to the Twokinds world either.

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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#13 Post by Hulk10 »

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:56 am
Hulk10 wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:41 am Actually if you click to the next page it reveals that it was the tower that was feeding his powers. And probably corrupting his mind. Also I don't necessarily think he was planning to kill EVERYONE there.
Yeah this is true, but this is still New Trace doing this, not Dark Trace or whatever we call him.
He is indeed befuddled by the dark magic, but like I said in my earlier post, the way I view it that logic is is no different from saying that someone who commits a crime while high or drunk is forgiven because ''it wasn't me, it was the drugs!''

The law doesn't take that stance in the real world, it shouldn't apply to the Twokinds world either.
I never intended to imply that being high or drunk means forgiveness. However I think it depends on where you are whether drug or alcohol intoxication means less severe punishments. But I could be wrong, having looked more carefully.

But insanity is a valid defense case I know that for a fact.

I suggest you check out this wikia page for the categories it provides an interesting perspective as it classifies Trace as a remorseful villain, fallen hero, possessed and brainwashed, and mentally ill. http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Trace_Legacy
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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#14 Post by Wobaku »

Hulk10 wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:14 am I never intended to imply that being high or drunk means forgiveness. However I think it depends on where you are whether drug or alcohol intoxication means less severe punishments. But I could be wrong, having looked more carefully.

But insanity is a valid defense case I know that for a fact.

I suggest you check out this wikia page for the categories it provides an interesting perspective as it classifies Trace as a remorseful villain, fallen hero, possessed and brainwashed, and mentally ill. http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Trace_Legacy
It certainly takes the blame away from him slightly. But as far as I know in developed countries a murder committed while high or drunk is still murder, because it is still the person doing the act, not the drugs, and murders are what we're dealing with here.
And I don't think insanity defence works here either, trace is amnesiac during the tower fight, and the dark mana has definitely thrown his emotions/reasoning out of whack, but he clearly isn't a lunatic, he still makes a decision to kill everyone there when he clearly doesn't need to, because it is easier. This isn't the dark magic talking, or Trace's previous self, it's him, the guy who was born on page 1.

But anyway, I didn't really want to debate about the morality of his actions at the tower, my original point was that he has done legitimately evil acts even post amnesia, and not shown remorse for them, so while he is certainly a decent person, I can't agree that he is 100% morally up together, he just doesn't seem to have enough empathy.

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Re: New Trace's Allignment

#15 Post by Hulk10 »

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:01 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:14 am I never intended to imply that being high or drunk means forgiveness. However I think it depends on where you are whether drug or alcohol intoxication means less severe punishments. But I could be wrong, having looked more carefully.

But insanity is a valid defense case I know that for a fact.

I suggest you check out this wikia page for the categories it provides an interesting perspective as it classifies Trace as a remorseful villain, fallen hero, possessed and brainwashed, and mentally ill. http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Trace_Legacy
It certainly takes the blame away from him slightly. But as far as I know in developed countries a murder committed while high or drunk is still murder, because it is still the person doing the act, not the drugs, and murders are what we're dealing with here.
And I don't think insanity defence works here either, trace is amnesiac during the tower fight, and the dark mana has definitely thrown his emotions/reasoning out of whack, but he clearly isn't a lunatic, he still makes a decision to kill everyone there when he clearly doesn't need to, because it is easier. This isn't the dark magic talking, or Trace's previous self, it's him, the guy who was born on page 1.

But anyway, I didn't really want to debate about the morality of his actions at the tower, my original point was that he has done legitimately evil acts even post amnesia, and not shown remorse for them, so while he is certainly a decent person, I can't agree that he is 100% morally up together, he just doesn't seem to have enough empathy.
Neither did I. However that page also makes the supposition that Trace's evil self and his new self were combined then. I can see your point though.
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