Could a state potentially leave the US Union?

Got a question? Ya just gotta ask! Go on, ask about anything.

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
The Rookie
Grand Templar
Posts: 1332
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:34 am
Location: Australia

Could a state potentially leave the US Union?

#1 Post by The Rookie »

Hey, dumb question, but I've heard conflicting statements all over the place.

Could a state, or collection of states, potentially leave the Union of the United States peacefully, and if so, what steps would be required to do so?

With all the talk about California leaving over the Trump win (Which I highly doubt will survive the week before returning to normality), I'm curious to hear what would need to happen for such a thing to occur in the real world.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Image
Image

User avatar
Shar
Citizen
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 11:31 pm

Re: Could a state potentially leave the US Union?

#2 Post by Shar »

Yes. But not without a war.

California has such a large and self sustaining economy that from an economic standpoint it already is capable of that task. As far as how, well that depends.. technically all you really need to be an independent nation is to have the majority of people reject anything given by the parent nation. California could become independent to a degree just by passively ignoring any orders given it. The real issue isn't weather it could but rather if it was worth it.... After all that would start a civil war..

If you really want to make a positive change the most beneficial thing to do would likely be to pressure Washington so hard that it has no choice but to throw out the electorate. That cant change whats already done but it can prevent it from happening again. Barring that i would say pressure the senate to begin impeachment procedures because from a legal standpoint if trump looses the fraud case he is in than he becomes guilty of fraud, which is an impeachable offence. That wont change the party that's in of course but hey Pence is better than trump.
Image

User avatar
SirJahar
Grand Templar
Posts: 1205
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:30 am
Location: Grand Prairie, Tx.

Re: Could a state potentially leave the US Union?

#3 Post by SirJahar »

To add to what's been said, the new nation would need treasure to back money, to print money, raise an army amd air fore at the very least, and at least a coast guard if not a true navy if they are on a coast. They would need to quel the revolt of citizens who wanted to reman loyal to the parent nation, draft a constitution, ellect/apoint the nesesary posutions for the new government to work, all while very sudenly at war.

User avatar
jacobc62
Grand Templar
Posts: 1384
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:47 pm
Location: Mekkan Raceway
Contact:

Re: Could a state potentially leave the US Union?

#4 Post by jacobc62 »

Basically, in order for California (or any other state) to secede from the Union, they'd have to follow a similar path to that of the original 13 Colonies, or of the Confederate States of America.

In other words, a declaration of independance/secession, and a war with the parent nation.


Then again, the United States COULD say "Buhbye! Don't let the door hit you on the way out!"
Image
Image
"That poor, sexy [censored]...." -Evals Vaughan, October 2016

User avatar
TinyVoices
Templar Inner Circle
Posts: 6275
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:08 pm
Location: https://goo.gl/7ARWF4
Fav. Twokinds Character: Kat

Re: Could a state potentially leave the US Union?

#5 Post by TinyVoices »

Any state trying to leave the union would need a damn good reason to do so, to start off with. Trump winning is likely not good enough.


To add to what has been already said about California specifically, a lot of the power California has is because it's doing really well with trading and functioning within the United States.

Most of the food grown in California is grown in the central valley, where the majority of farmers are Republican who voted for Trump. They would likely not take very kindly to their state trying to leave just on the basis of Trump winning.
So much of the food produced by the state would now be gone.

Most of the water for Southern California comes from the Colorado River, which comes into the state from Nevada/Arizona. Water rights would likely stop, and so much of the state would be without water. The North gets most of their water from the American River and other rivers that come from Lake Tahoe, which is majorly in California. I would think California would maintain at least control of the water on their side of the state line shared with Nevada. Some tussles might occur, but that lake's source is the snow pack surrounding it and so I would think at least the North would maintain water control of some kind.
Overall, the Southern portion of the state would be without a major source of water, while the Northern portion should be able to maintain existing sources.

The existing military forces in California belong to the United States, and so now the New California Republic is without a military within its very expansive borders. Maintaining border control and a healthy army, navy, etc. would be exceptionally taxing on the new country. I have no clue how strong California is as a producer of arms and armaments, so I couldn't comment on that. California is home to some key naval and airforce bases of the United States. No joke, my hometown has had multi-megaton nuclear bombs handled within its borders, and I've heard that during the Cold War the USSR had a few warheads aimed our way. I don't think the U.S. would give up these strategic locations.
With no army of its own, a large state with many lengthy borders, and with any existing military related headquarter firmly held on by the Union, California would be defenseless.

Much of the economic power of California comes from Silicon Valley, a region immediately south from the San Francisco Bay Area. The products of Silicon Valley are often heavily maintained within the United States, and these companies are actually obligated to largely produce these goods for U.S. consumers. In some cases, the product isn't even allowed to be designed or sold outside of the U.S. California's major economic boon would be left neutered. Much of the rest of California's economy comes from the Las Angeles area (Hollywood and such. I dunno how they would feel about California becoming its own country but who knows. The other question is if they can work outside the U.S. and successfully function with California first and likely sanctioned United States second.), and farm produced goods, which as previously discussed are majorly made by or within regions of the state largely identifying as Republican and ergo not willing to do business with a wayward state.
California's mighty economy is likely going to find itself severely blockaded by the United States in terms of sanctions, regulations, and steadfast loyalties to the Union.

All in all, it'd be a dumb idea for California to leave the country. I'm unaware of how the other states would fair, but likely they would struggle and likely falter as well.


The main question was if it was also legal. California could make an amendment to the United States Constitution that would allow them to leave the Union peacefully. "The Constitution provides that an amendment may be proposed either by the Congress with a two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or by a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures." Which is often impossible to accomplish simply because you have to convince all these people that it's a good idea to add something to the very fabric of American Government. Not to mention that this thing involves allowing a state to just walk out of the Union, provided any conditions are met beforehand.

User avatar
TheFrozenSlime
Templar
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:37 am
Location: In front of my computer/ nose in a book

Re: Could a state potentially leave the US Union?

#6 Post by TheFrozenSlime »

Not legally, no. That was decided a few years back by this little thing called the Civil War. Besides, if Texas can't secede, Cali sure as hell can't.
Image
/╲/\╭( ͡° ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° ͡°)╮/\╱\ <------- This is my attack spider. Don't mess with it.
Procrastinator Extraordinaire and Connoisseur of Fine Distractions,
Self-Proclaimed

User avatar
midnightblink
Council Member
Posts: 551
Joined: Mon May 25, 2015 7:03 am
Location: Troutdale Oregon

Re: Could a state potentially leave the US Union?

#7 Post by midnightblink »

There has been talk of Oregon, Washington and Cali all leaving as one new nation (I even saw something that said the new country would have the 5th largest economy in the world, which sounds like it could be true, but it could not be). But, as other people said, this would lead to a war with the rest of the United Sates, and I don't think this new country (which some have taken to calling "Pacifica") could survive that against a country with an army larger than the other top 13 countries combined. As an Oregonian, I think it would be a dumb thing to do

Here's a picture we have been laughing at on facebook (also kind of saying "if only", but as something we would never actually try doing)

Image
Image
Primum Non Nocere

User avatar
Neutral Smith
Templar GrandMaster
Posts: 673
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:32 pm
Location: Neitherlands
Fav. Twokinds Character: Saria's father
Contact:

Re: Could a state potentially leave the US Union?

#8 Post by Neutral Smith »

https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/initiat ... 0US%29.pdf

Just... wow.

(note: I'm not American, I'm outside of this discussion but I like to provide information about this subject)
If it moves but shouldn't: Duct tape. If it doesn't move but should: WD-40. With a hammer everything fits, and if it still doesn't fit: bigger hammer. If it can't be fixed with a hammer it's an electrical problem.

JohnCollins5091
Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:54 am

Re: Could a state potentially leave the US Union?

#9 Post by JohnCollins5091 »

I'm new to the forum. I'm a big sucker for history (not american) and I stumbled upon this post so I wanted to throw in my two cents.

Legally, it is (theoretically) possible for California, and other states, to leave the union. The original constitution made no reference at all to state secession, but after the Civil War, good old Abe made sure that it would a big pain in the butt for any state to try to secede. Realistically, it is nigh impossible, but the method is there.

Of course, most people here are bringing in the military point of view (typicall murican amirite). I have no doubt that the United States Armed Forces could stomp on whether it be California alone or a union of california and other states. However, politically speaking, this war would be illegal; at least, that is if California and/or other states followed the proper legal methods within the American Constitution to secede. They would have appeal to the United Nations in order to wage war against the New California Republic.

This, however, would also be easy cake for the United States as the UN is often secretly called 'Murica and its [censored], except China and Russia because nukes'. The United States could either use their super op (pls nerf) veto powers or some other stuff to either get away with invading California (as it has done several times before when they were denied permission by the UN), or do some shady shiat to get a majority votes in favor. The United States, if you would forgive my language, has had a long history of being massive tit to other sovereign nations that threaten or are simply in the way of their interests (Let's remember that the reason why California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas are part of the union is because a lidl man named James K Polk who also happened to be president of the United States wanted to annex California and expand the union into both oceans. This war was, of course, illegal, and ya boi Abe denounced James for being a shady [censored] [censored], although to no effect.)

User avatar
tony1695
Weaver of Tales
Posts: 5737
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:49 am
Location: POOTISPOOTISPOOTISPOOTIS

Re: Could a state potentially leave the US Union?

#10 Post by tony1695 »

My VAGUE understanding on the matter is that while state constitution has all the necessary legalese to allow a secession, the national constitution does not allow such actions. As a result, such a thing would likely fall under the umbrella of treason and get treated as a civil war. I think.
Gentlementlemen
How do you get to the Rakdos Guild Hall?
You take the psycho path.
Weed la Weed Warning: WEIRD

Post Reply