Joining Keenspot

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SirSlaughter
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Re: Joining Keenspot

#76 Post by SirSlaughter »

Yash wrote:
Conal wrote:I think the comic lost integrity when it was signed where the money is. This could have continued to rise the way it was.
Nothing's changed about the comic at all, outside of some ads begin shown on the side and the fact that Tom can now draw it on a more regular basis (something he's been wanting to do for quite a long time) since the comic is now a reliable source of income for him.
What yash said. Nothing is wrong now, he is just getting paid for his work now. its still the same and all that has changed is just an ad or two that are not really intrusive at all.

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Re: Joining Keenspot

#77 Post by avwolf »

Hey, Tom, looks like we're getting pop-unders for http://freeproducttesters.com/EligibleMember/. Main site I've got an ad for the Captain America movie at Trailer Station, and the other three ads are all Harbor Freight tools. Probably worth mentioning to Keenspot.
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Re: Joining Keenspot

#78 Post by Conal »

Arashi500 wrote:For stuff like punk rock sure(and even then, signing with a lenient label for the purpose of expanding the reach of your message is considered selling out, even though it's a totally legit decision that doesn't compromise integrity), but what did TwoKinds stand for independently that it no longer stands for?
It was a one man comic, now it's a company comic. He should be making money for himself & getting paid from it that way. Which would probably be easier to do if the books didn't come with appalling standards, as I pointed out in this video of my Twokinds 1 book review: http://youtu.be/R8rjD1yqWoI?hd=1
And I havn't noticed any pop-ups.
I'll get back to you with that.
Wulx wrote:I have the same question.
Tom started this from a young age & carried on doing it despite IRL schedules. Now he's employed by a company to do it, rather than being self employed. This comic would be much more brilliant if it never needed signing but actually grew on it's own.

Your spark might not be the brightest or most intense of all, but at least you can say you did it without commercial assistance.
SirSlaughter wrote: What yash said. Nothing is wrong now, he is just getting paid for his work now. its still the same and all that has changed is just an ad or two that are not really intrusive at all.
I'll get back to you with that.
avwolf wrote:Hey, Tom, looks like we're getting pop-unders for http://freeproducttesters.com/EligibleMember/.
ORLY?
Main site I've got an ad for the Captain America movie at Trailer Station,
ORLY?
and the other three ads are all Harbor Freight tools.
ORLY?
Probably worth mentioning to Keenspot.
Agreed.
Arashi500 wrote:And I havn't noticed any pop-ups.
avwolf wrote:looks like we're getting pop-unders
SirSlaughter wrote:not really intrusive at all.
avwolf wrote:Probably worth mentioning to Keenspot.
I rest my case.
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Re: Joining Keenspot

#79 Post by tony1695 »

Tom wrote:Back in early February, I was contacted by Keenspot and asked if I had any interest in joining their network. For those who are unaware, Keenspot is a comic hosting network which has, in the past, delivered some of my favorite webcomics, such as RPG World, Adventurers, The Class Menagerie, and many more. Receiving this offer was a surprise. When I first began Twokinds back in 2003 on what was then known as Keenspace, being accepting into Keenspot was something I greatly desired. It was, in my mind, the holy grail for an amateur webcomic artist like myself. In September of 2005, I actually sent an application, in the hopes of being accepted. I never heard back from them.
Conal, you seem to be forgetting this important thing. This was Tom's dream, to be accepted by Keenspot. He never had any intention of selling out, I'm sure. He just wanted to be recognized as someone so good that people were willing to pay him for updates. (To be fair, most of us fall under that heading, but this is a business. That's different.)
You don't like how the money is being made? Fine.
You'd rather see Twokinds go back to before the move? Fine, I guess.
A few pop-ups are, I reckon, a small price to pay to see a man we love and admire have one of his life's dreams fulfilled. So, maybe you could stop being such a downer? Just get something that'll stop the pop-ups, if you're so concerned.
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Re: Joining Keenspot

#80 Post by Conal »

tony1695 wrote: Conal, you seem to be forgetting this important thing. This was Tom's dream, to be accepted by Keenspot. He never had any intention of selling out, I'm sure.
I know he wanted this a long time ago, I'm just not happy about it. It should be his comic.
He just wanted to be recognized as someone so good that people were willing to pay him for updates. (To be fair, most of us fall under that heading, but this is a business. That's different.)
I just don't understand the psychology behind it. I wouldn't set out to be so good at a hobby of mine which people are interested in watching so that hopefully someone will own my work for it. I'd want to keep it my own.
You don't like how the money is being made? Fine.
I don't like how the money is being made. Pop-ups or no pop-ups.
You'd rather see Twokinds go back to before the move? Fine, I guess.
Yeah, remember when we were .com?
A few pop-ups are, I reckon, a small price to pay to see a man we love and admire have one of his life's dreams fulfilled.
It's great that he fulfilled the dream, I'm just saying the dream is wrong. The "dream" should be being very successful from your own work.
So, maybe you could stop being such a downer? Just get something that'll stop the pop-ups, if you're so concerned.
That's not going to do it. It's still a Keenspot comic.
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Re: Joining Keenspot

#81 Post by tony1695 »

Conal wrote:That's not going to do it. It's still a Keenspot comic.
Is that the only problem? It's being hosted by Keenspot?
Then here's an incredible idea. Stop reading! You'll never have to worry about Keenspot again! Isn't that wonderful?
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Re: Joining Keenspot

#82 Post by Conal »

tony1695 wrote: Is that the only problem? It's being hosted by Keenspot?
My main concern, yes.
Then here's an incredible idea. Stop reading! You'll never have to worry about Keenspot again! Isn't that wonderful?
That's not an intelligent idea. I obviously like the comic, that's why I'm concerned about this change. If I didn't like the comic I wouldn't be concerned about it being owned by someone else.
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Re: Joining Keenspot

#83 Post by Prometheus »

Okay, as far as I can see, Conal, you're alone on this issue. No one really has a problem with it, I certainly don't. So what if there are a few more ads? Tom likes this arrangement, and we get more comics as well.
Conal wrote:It's great that he fulfilled the dream, I'm just saying the dream is wrong. The "dream" should be being very successful from your own work.
o.0 Well, someone's certainly arrogant... I don't see how you, or anyone really, could say this. The dream is wrong? It's his dream, not yours. Who are you to decide what his dreams should and shouldn't be, as well as whether they're right or wrong? Oh, and to say you're own dream is "the dream"? I see that as just a bit egotistical. No offense meant, but that's just what I see. Tom's dreams are his and his alone, and whatever he decides to do should not be denounced as "the wrong thing to do", and have "the right thing to do" posted as well. Fine if you don't like it, and you can make that clear, but don't try and argue about how your judgement of this is better than Tom's. If this was you're comic that Tom had done this too, I would support your opinions with a passion, but it's not, so it's not your say as to what's black or white. Again, I do not mean to insult you.
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Re: Joining Keenspot

#84 Post by tony1695 »

Prometheus, you managed to say what I couldn't articulate. Thank you.
It's not your comic. You're acting as though someone stole this whole thing from you. Kinda like Taina, now I think about it...
But anyway, you're free to feel how you do, I won't deny that. But pushing your view as the only acceptable one... well, that's kinda wrong.
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Re: Joining Keenspot

#85 Post by avwolf »

Conal, like I told you when you experienced some misbehaving ads, you need to report them and what you're seeing so that they can be tracked down. They violate Keenspot's advertisement policies. Ad networks are known targets for malicious individuals, and it's no great surprise that someone might compromise Keenspot's network. After all, it's happened to DA more than once. Therefore it's important to report when you experience advertising that violates policy so that the malicious ads can be found and removed. Listing all the ads on the sites helps Keenspot know which pieces of its ad network it should examine. The fact that there are ads on the site are not "ORLY" statements, and, frankly, making such statements undermines the intellectual properties of your case.

Obviously, you're under some interesting misconceptions. As I told Tom when he was considering this move, far be it from me to dissuade independence, as it's something I enormously respect. But entering into a commercial partnership (and make no mistake, that's exactly what this is) can, and in this case certainly does, has its own significant advantages. The only rights Keenspot has in relation to Twokinds are exclusive online publishing rights, licensed to them by Tom. In other words, the comic is still wholly Tom's property. Keenspot doesn't have any creative input into Twokinds, apart from maybe something like "if you suddenly decide to quit being a PG-13 comic after many years of doing so, we'll terminate the contract and you're back to on your own." Tom didn't sell out. There's really not any selling being done. "You should be successful from your own work," you said. What do you call this?! He's being paid good money to continue to work on the product that he loves, and which he still owns. That's being successful! How did he get here? He was invited after standing wholly independent for some time and building this community even though it required a lot of time and financial sacrifices. That's his own efforts! Tom has now done precisely what you suggested he do, and now you're upset that he "sold out" to do it?

And, frankly, even "selling out" gets a bad rap. There's been plenty of highly influential people who didn't become influential until they "sold out" and permitted their management to make creative decisions. But again, that's not happening here. Believe me, I lament the complete independence of Twokinds as well. But the advantages of this opportunity are quite obvious. Do you think Tom would have done this if Keenspot was "purchasing" Twokinds? If they were to suddenly have a voice in the creative process, or even worse, veto capabilities over his creative decisions? Of course not!
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Re: Joining Keenspot

#86 Post by Duo Barton »

(Ignore)

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Re: Joining Keenspot

#87 Post by Conal »

Prometheus wrote:Okay, as far as I can see, Conal, you're alone on this issue. No one really has a problem with it, I certainly don't. So what if there are a few more ads? Tom likes this arrangement, and we get more comics as well.
I can see that, it doesn't change the fact that I have the opinion.
Conal wrote:It's great that he fulfilled the dream, I'm just saying the dream is wrong. The "dream" should be being very successful from your own work.
o.0 Well, someone's certainly arrogant... I don't see how you, or anyone really, could say this. The dream is wrong? It's his dream, not yours. Who are you to decide what his dreams should and shouldn't be, as well as whether they're right or wrong?
By disagreeing with the dream. If someone wanted to grow up to be a successful asset stripper I can disagree with it & say I think what they want is wrong. - Making no comparisons here, of course.
Oh, and to say you're own dream is "the dream"? I see that as just a bit egotistical.
I put it in quotes to distinguish it as relevant criteria to the point I was making about "the dream".
No offense meant, but that's just what I see. Tom's dreams are his and his alone, and whatever he decides to do should not be denounced as "the wrong thing to do", and have "the right thing to do" posted as well.
I'm just saying how I feel about it.
Fine if you don't like it, and you can make that clear, but don't try and argue about how your judgement of this is better than Tom's. If this was you're comic that Tom had done this too, I would support your opinions with a passion, but it's not, so it's not your say as to what's black or white. Again, I do not mean to insult you.
So what you're saying is you'll agree with the opinions of who ever owns that particular comic? Then I can't win a debate with you.
tony1695 wrote:Prometheus, you managed to say what I couldn't articulate. Thank you.
It's not your comic. You're acting as though someone stole this whole thing from you.
I'm a fan of the comic, I have been for a few years. I liked the fact that it was independent as well. I'm just a let down fan. But you can't please everybody & to please all but 1 is an achievement.
Kinda like Taina, now I think about it...
Let's not be over-dramatic now.
But anyway, you're free to feel how you do, I won't deny that. But pushing your view as the only acceptable one... well, that's kinda wrong.
I'm willing for my opinion to be challenged.
Gabriel of creosha wrote:I agree with tony and prometheus. Not your comic sir, and I'm not mad at you, but I will not be in a psoition of agreeance with you.
Your username isn't my username. I can still read it. It can still bother me.
avwolf wrote:Conal, like I told you when you experienced some misbehaving ads, you need to report them and what you're seeing so that they can be tracked down. They violate Keenspot's advertisement policies.
They do? Why are they getting so many of them?
Ad networks are known targets for malicious individuals, and it's no great surprise that someone might compromise Keenspot's network. After all, it's happened to DA more than once. Therefore it's important to report when you experience advertising that violates policy so that the malicious ads can be found and removed.
I'll keep an eye out of them.
Listing all the ads on the sites helps Keenspot know which pieces of its ad network it should examine. The fact that there are ads on the site are not "ORLY" statements, and, frankly, making such statements undermines the intellectual properties of your case.
I disagree, from my perspective I was eccentrically saying "I already knew that, that's what I've been saying". It's the meaning behind the words used that show intellect, not how they appear.
Obviously, you're under some interesting misconceptions. As I told Tom when he was considering this move, far be it from me to dissuade independence, as it's something I enormously respect. But entering into a commercial partnership (and make no mistake, that's exactly what this is) can, and in this case certainly does, has its own significant advantages. The only rights Keenspot has in relation to Twokinds are exclusive online publishing rights, licensed to them by Tom. In other words, the comic is still wholly Tom's property. Keenspot doesn't have any creative input into Twokinds, apart from maybe something like "if you suddenly decide to quit being a PG-13 comic after many years of doing so, we'll terminate the contract and you're back to on your own." Tom didn't sell out. There's really not any selling being done.
Besides the publishing rights, they have ads on his website, a bar on the top of it & the comic website is a sub-domain of Keenspots. There's more to it than just being allowed to publish his comic.
"You should be successful from your own work," you said. What do you call this?!
Keenspots being successful from him, after he gave away rights to the comic. I bet Book Two will have Keenspots on it.
He's being paid good money to continue to work on the product that he loves, and which he still owns.
Yes, but look at what was given away.
That's being successful! How did he get here? He was invited after standing wholly independent for some time and building this community even though it required a lot of time and financial sacrifices. That's his own efforts!
So why couldn't he continue?
Tom has now done precisely what you suggested he do, and now you're upset that he "sold out" to do it?
Did I suggest he sell out? I don't remember suggesting he sell out.
And, frankly, even "selling out" gets a bad rap. There's been plenty of highly influential people who didn't become influential until they "sold out" and permitted their management to make creative decisions. But again, that's not happening here. Believe me, I lament the complete independence of Twokinds as well. But the advantages of this opportunity are quite obvious. Do you think Tom would have done this if Keenspot was "purchasing" Twokinds? If they were to suddenly have a voice in the creative process, or even worse, veto capabilities over his creative decisions? Of course not!
Then allow me to address Tom & ask him this.

Tom, if 80% of your fans didn't want this move, would you leave Keenspot?
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Re: Joining Keenspot

#88 Post by unsteddyPhoenix »

Conal wrote:
Tom, if 80% of your fans didn't want this move, would you leave Keenspot?
I hope not, that would make him our [censored]. I honestly would probably lose respect for him if he gave up what he wanted just to appease us, and if he did that to the comic too, I might just stop reading.

Also, even though it feels like i'm joining the "mob", you can't "disagree" with someones dream, that makes no sense, I think the word you're looking for is "disapprove" As in you disapprove about the girls dream of becoming a stripper, but then you're back to the problem of being incredibly arrogant. This is what he has wanted for years and not only do you want him conform to his fans, but you want him to conform to the minority.
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Re: Joining Keenspot

#89 Post by 2plus2makes5 »

For the sake of productivity, I'm going to ignore the argument taking place. Below is the address of a pop-up that appeared when I clicked the "Forums" button on the Keenspot page.

http://freeproducttesters.com/EligibleMember/
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Re: Joining Keenspot

#90 Post by Conal »

Well, it's become clear that I'm the only one who has a problem & I'm certainly not convincing anyone. I think we've put our points forward & brought it down to our own views on what we'll give away to acquire more. Just to tie up the debate:
unsteddyPhoenix wrote:I hope not, that would make him our [censored]. I honestly would probably lose respect for him if he gave up what he wanted just to appease us, and if he did that to the comic too, I might just stop reading.
So you wouldn't read the comic because he listened to us?
Also, even though it feels like i'm joining the "mob", you can't "disagree" with someones dream, that makes no sense, I think the word you're looking for is "disapprove" As in you disapprove about the girls dream of becoming a stripper, but then you're back to the problem of being incredibly arrogant.
Excuse me, I didn't talk about girls becoming strippers. That's up to them. It's their choice, it's not my place to judge. I said "Asset Stripper". Look it up. Ignoramus.
This is what he has wanted for years and not only do you want him conform to his fans, but you want him to conform to the minority.
No, I was asking if he would change his mind because of us. I know I'm the only one who has a problem with the move.
2plus2makes5 wrote:For the sake of productivity, I'm going to ignore the argument taking place. Below is the address of a pop-up that appeared when I clicked the "Forums" button on the Keenspot page.

http://freeproducttesters.com/EligibleMember/
Just out of interest, what can Keenspots do about it? They still get them & as Avwolf said; it's affected dA too.
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