Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

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Capitalist vs Socialist

Traditional Capitalism
3
13%
Modern Socialism
7
30%
Hybrid
12
52%
Neither
1
4%
 
Total votes: 23

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The Rookie
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Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#1 Post by The Rookie »

Hey guys.

So with the current presidential race happening at the moment, I've noticed quite a few of you have become rather vocal in your support or disapproval of certain candidates based on their opinions of traditional capitalism and modern socialism.

As an Australian, I've seen how a hybrid of the two has benefited my own country, as well having it's own faults. So I was wondering if we removed the political candidates (ie Trump vs Sanders) would your opinions on the matter be the same or fairly different?
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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#2 Post by Vintage »

It'd be a little difficult to but a name on where I stand since I don't really have any political background, just observations, but the closest thing I'd relate to would have to be more towards hybrid. The way I see it, some businesses are clearly not fit to self-regulate due to the harmful consumer effects that result from trying to be economically efficient, yet a system where the government controlled a large amount of businesses could be prone to corruption. Ideally socialism means that the government would only control basic means of production and/or vital services, but not specialized, private corporations that we mostly see today. But things in the real world don't just work like they do in the textbooks. I would probably support more corporation regulation by the government, but not to a point where businesses have no freedom to carry out their goods/services. The government should protect people from corporations, corporations should protect people from the government. The whole US Government is set up on a system of checks and balances, so it only makes sense to have cross examinations of this type.

Just from what I've observed, traditional Republicans tend to think that traditional Democrats favor supporting people that are unmotivated, lazy and undeserving of government aid through the taxes of hard earning American citizens. Traditional Democrats tend to see traditional Republicans favoring wealthy, greedy people who don't want to share their earnings with "the unwashed masses." Now of course I'm saying traditional because this clearly doesn't apply to everyone in both parties, just the ones that are more radical. But we're currently in 2016, and if the resources are available (which they clearly are due to all the technology that's now available), then of course I would support the idea of a program that seeks to help people out financially, economically, educationally, medically, etc. Because to deny people a solution to a problem that can be fixed with the right amount of influence would be morally and socially wrong to do. Same thing with the controversy over the Syrian refugees. They're still people. The fact that some politicians claim that they're just terrorists to deny them entry is appalling. Sure, with any large group that wants to enter a country they're going to be some "bad eggs" - but to take the very small portion of the whole and apply it to everyone is logically flawed. That's also the main problem with furries and the media; a small part gets represented as a whole.

I'll probably regret posting this at some point...
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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#3 Post by Bellhead »

This is quite an interesting topic. Personally, I haven't put much thought into the effects of capitalism vs. socialism in the worlds of yesterday and today. It will be interesting to see it from experienced and/or knowledgeable points of view on the matter.

So tell me, Rookie: How does this "hybrid" system work down there?
What's different from the modern socialist view that makes it capitalist, and vice versa? I honestly have next to no clue what I'm talking about here as far as the differences between the two, sooo.... yeah.

I'll be following this thread.
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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#4 Post by The Rookie »

Bellhead wrote:So tell me, Rookie: How does this "hybrid" system work down there?
Good question. I probably should have gone into this better when making the hybrid option.

So when I think traditional capitalism I think of the United States, and when I think of modern socialism I think of Sweden and other Northern European countries. Now in my opinion, Australia sits some where in the middle ground.

So Australia is a Commonwealth country, which basically means that the state has an interest in the common good of the people, but it's not going to hold your hand through out your whole life. You're still expected to pull your own weight, to an extent.

For example; It's different from the US in that our government puts a stronger focus on pubic health care and tertiary education loans are paid off by the government in advance (Not private loans) and we pay it back through tax once we reach a certain income level. (Like a socialist country.) However, we're still encouraged to get private health care through private companies, and tertiary education isn't free, just more affordable (Like a traditional capitalist country).

I'm sure there are other key differences, but I don't feel qualified to speak on behalf of all 3 systems.
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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#5 Post by TinyVoices »

I don't think that a lot of Americans would sit around and let Socialism take over. That's why so much hate is aimed towards it from us. We went through a ~50 year time period where apocalyptic weapons were aimed at world powers because Socialists wanted to take over Capitalist countries, and Capitalist countries were scared of that.

A lot of that was kind of boogeymen fear and whatnot, but it still happened, and we're still coming down from that.

Maybe in a few more generations we'll be more willing to move on, but the people who grew up in the Cold War will want nothing to do with socialism. That is, if they were fervent patriots they wouldn't.


I would like to see a hybrid, however. I think it's stupid to say you can't pick and choose certain aspects of different economic ideas. Successful aspect of socialism can be integrated with successful aspects of capitalism, and it wouldn't hurt so long as we do it right.

Mail 6 days of the week, government maintained roadways, and college grants already exist which make life extremely easier for people. We don't have to give hobos a gold bullion for saying they have a sore knee, or some bull like that.

But why make it so god forsakenly hard to make an educated public be a reality? We complain about falling behind countries in math and science, yet think that high schools can do magic with a crap budgets, or that college is only for the rich or the ones who can work their knuckles to bone. Admiral to do so, but if you make it so that only 20% of the population can manage to get a degree, it isn't surprising when only that have a degree. And without a degree, you can't do [censored] in this day and age without equivalent amount of experience. And 5 years experience isn't magically achieved.

Also, why should it be so hard for the Feds and States to pull up money to maintain their roads and other infrastructure? That money comes from their treasuries, which is stocked by taxes. I've always found it humorous that Republicans want to lower taxes, and want the government to somehow do better with less money. We shouldn't be a country where Wal-Mart like entities have to help fund roads and mains. But that's what it sounds like they want.

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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#6 Post by musicgeek »

Countries like Sweden, Norway and Denmark that have embraced elements of both socialism and capitalism (social democracy) have seen big benefits to both their economies and their people's wellbeing. I see a hybrid as an achievable compromise between the two that ensures that everyone has access to healthcare and education, which are two of the biggest divides between the rich and poor in capitalist countries, and that starting and owning a business can still be achieved like in a capitalist economy, but in a regulated market which prevents the exploitation of workers and the shrugging off of social responsibilities that a free market opens the door to.
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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#7 Post by Insomniac »

I voted Hybrid, like Denmark (where they have universal healthcare, but the insurance companies are part of it, compulsory, and AFFORDABLE because EVERYONE pays into it). Might go into more detail when not tired from bingeing on Dead Island for too long.

One note though, TinyVoices, during the Cold War it was Communist countries, not Socialist. There is a difference, which I also might get into later unless someone else does it first.
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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#8 Post by TheMouse »

TinyVoices wrote:I don't think that a lot of Americans would sit around and let Socialism take over. That's why so much hate is aimed towards it from us. We went through a ~50 year time period where apocalyptic weapons were aimed at world powers because Socialists wanted to take over Capitalist countries, and Capitalist countries were scared of that.

A lot of that was kind of boogeymen fear and whatnot, but it still happened, and we're still coming down from that.

Maybe in a few more generations we'll be more willing to move on, but the people who grew up in the Cold War will want nothing to do with socialism. That is, if they were fervent patriots they wouldn't.
But those countries weren't socialist, not by a long shot. We threw the communist label on them, because they did. But they were flat out fascist dictatorships.

We, as Americans, are pretty willing to accept labels without putting any thought into whether they accurately describe the thing being labeled. I'm just as guilty, really, but I'm aware that it happens.
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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#9 Post by TinyVoices »

Insomniac wrote:One note though, TinyVoices, during the Cold War it was Communist countries, not Socialist. There is a difference, which I also might get into later unless someone else does it first.
Isn't it communist to start, then progressively turn into socialism? Either way C and S are looked at in the same light, which is likely why people today mix the two up a lot.

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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#10 Post by musicgeek »

TinyVoices wrote:
Insomniac wrote:One note though, TinyVoices, during the Cold War it was Communist countries, not Socialist. There is a difference, which I also might get into later unless someone else does it first.
Isn't it communist to start, then progressively turn into socialism? Either way C and S are looked at in the same light, which is likely why people today mix the two up a lot.
Communism is a stateless, moneyless, classless society brought about by a fundamental change to human nature from a long period of socialism. Lenin literally said "the endpoint of socialism is communism". As for the Soviet Union...they started off socialist, but like all socialist countries that followed the Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist school of socialist thought, it turned into a bureaucratic totalitarian dictatorship that oppressed the very people the revolution sought to liberate.
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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#11 Post by TinyVoices »

musicgeek wrote:Lenin literally said "the endpoint of socialism is communism".
So I was backwards, but close.

But then moreso people aren't interested in socialism. Every time it's been tried in the Cold War, it turned into an oppressive regime.

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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#12 Post by musicgeek »

TinyVoices wrote:
But then moreso people aren't interested in socialism. Every time it's been tried in the Cold War, it turned into an oppressive regime.
Well, one form of socialism, yeah. Marxism-Leninism/Maoism/Stalinism all ended badly because they relied on a heavily centralised government that was comprised of an undemocratic central committee of mostly military officials, no freedom of belief, opinion or the press, suppression of any dissent and growth that was too rapid to sustain, which caused famines and shortages. There are other schools of socialist thought which believe in a different way of doing socialism like anarcho communism/syndicalism, democratic socialism, Trotskyism, etc, but the one that people most remember and have a skewed view of socialism because of is Marxism-Leninism for the previously stated reasons.
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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#13 Post by TinyVoices »

musicgeek wrote:socialism
Yup, it's skewed. And it will be skewed until the Cold War is a bit farther away. Only in the last decade have any supporters of socialism actually stood up and said "but Russia wasn't C/S like they said they were."

The idea of America turning socialist of any kind is understandably alarming. Only a small handful of countries have tried "nice socialism" for maybe half a century or so. The long term effects are still not seen. It's likely that no government can go socialism, because it will always turn bad.

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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#14 Post by musicgeek »

TinyVoices wrote:Only a small handful of countries have tried "nice socialism" for maybe half a century or so. The long term effects are still not seen. It's likely that no government can go socialism, because it will always turn bad.
If you mean what I think you mean by these countries that have tried "nice socialism" (Sweden, Denmark, Norway), it's not socialism per se. More elements of socialism in the framework of a regulated capitalist economy. Socialism requires full collective ownership of industry and the means of production, whereas social democracy is just a hybrid of elements of both.
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Re: Capitalist vs Socialist ideologies

#15 Post by TinyVoices »

I wonder why this forum has so many socialist minded individuals on it. The forum seems extremely biased towards that ideology, gathered from both this thread and the 2016 U.S. election thread.

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