Ember

[The Rookie]

How far is too far ?

I want to say we've gone too far as a collective species if Non-enhanced people are considered second rate or lesser for not having bio mods. These topics are explored a bit more in depth in the Deus Ex series and the film Gattaca, but basically if unenhanced people aren't offered the same job opportunities, life styles, etcetera, then we're going to have some serious issues.

I'm pretty much pro enhancement for everything else though. The unlimited potential that might be gained from these technologies is simply mind boggling.

[Insomniac]

There are, in my opinion, two lines that should not be crossed. Manipulating fetal DNA in non-health related ways, and making augs or non-augs second class citizens. Beyond that, bring on Ghost in the Shell, baby!

[The Rookie]

Manipulating fetal DNA in non-health related ways.

Here's the thing though, where do we draw the line with health related manipulation? I mean, there's the obvious repairing deformities and such, but what about "improving" a child? Would increasing a child's intelligence/strength while they're in the womb be considered health related ?

[Insomniac]

Here's the thing though, where do we draw the line with health related manipulation? I mean, there's the obvious repairing deformities and such, but what about "improving" a child? Would increasing a child's intelligence/strength while they're in the womb be considered health related ?

There are, in my opinion, two lines that should not be crossed. Manipulating fetal DNA in non-health related ways, and making augs or non-augs second class citizens. Beyond that, bring on Ghost in the Shell, baby!

Why is fetal dna manipulation off-limits in your mind?

Very good questions. I would lump quality of life in with health...Ideally, eliminating diseases and genetic ailments, and increasing intelligence potential, would be standard for all. Keep in mind Spero, I'd only want things that could potentially lessen the quality of a child's life to be off limits. Selective improvement rather than standard across the board, that kind of thing.

[Chris]

We are rapidly approaching a point where human modification can be at our doorstep any moment; from extending lifespans to electronic implants

We're already there. I could very well be dead by now if it wasn't for an electronic implant in my chest (a pacemaker), and I know someone who would be dead if it wasn't for internal body modifications (colonectomy). Other people have body modifications to improve their eyesight (laser eye surgery), or get devices to improve their hearing (hearing aids). Where people would have naturally faulty hearts, eyes, ears, etc, we've for decades have had means to help fix some cases, using various external or internal devices or various forms of surgical modifications. More generally, the average human lifespan is longer than it ever has been because of the things we've learned from science about keeping ourselves healthy and dealing with faulty biology.

I'm not a religious or philosophical person, so the ideas of personal improvement through biological or electronic augmentation don't really weigh on my conscience. On a practical level, I can see certain issues arising like The Rookie and you were discussing... if some people are augmented in a way that helps them perform better for some job, it would create a stigma for other people who want to also do that work but aren't similarly augmented. But what if having augmented workers doing a better job actually benefits society as a whole? It ultimately comes down to a question of individual freedom vs societal stability. One person doing something may not cause much of a ripple, but if thousands of people individually decide to do that same thing, it can sometimes have an effect on other people who did not decide to do ir.

Modifications that are mainly aesthetic I don't see as a problem at all. People like Stalking Cat should fully have the right to do what they want with their bodies when it doesn't affect other people. Some people may not like it, but it doesn't really affect what they're able to do. But when you get into non-aesthetic modifications it becomes very blurry very quickly, even if we just consider health-related stuff. For example, when I got my pacemaker, my doctor told me I'd likely have more energy to do things than I previously did. So if you were to take the two "me"s, one with the pacemaker and the one without, and we both applied for a job that required having a good amount of physical energy, the me with a pacemaker would have an advantage. Would it be fair to the other me to not get the job because they didn't have an implant? And would be be fair for the me me to not get the job because the other me needed equal consideration?

[primalcaller ergos]

I have an idea for how to help allieviate strain that could occur between augmented and non-augmented people.

Why not create devices that can be worn on the outside of your body that can replicate the same performance that cyborgs can do?

For example: A workplace that needs workers with above human level strength would employ plenty of augmented people,
but for those who don't want to alter their bodies permanently can just wear an exo-skeleton or power armour that can be taken off like a suit.
Then create some helmets with telecommunications and augmented reality capabilities compatible with eye and ear implants.

That way no one ends up being out of the job because they can't or won't get the permanent upgrades, but at the end of the day
they can just take off all the extra stuff and return to being a normal human when they go home after work.

What do you all think about this?

[The Rookie]

I guess, but think of it this way.

Would you rather spend X amount of money on exoskeletons (Including the initial purchase and maintenance) and stuff for people, or just hire someone with the mods already installed ?

You'd pay them both the same celery, but one group would require additional cost to do the same job. From a companies point of view, you can easily see who you'd rather hire.

[Schrodinger]

I have an idea for how to help allieviate strain that could occur between augmented and non-augmented people.

Why not create devices that can be worn on the outside of your body that can replicate the same performance that cyborgs can do?

For example: A workplace that needs workers with above human level strength would employ plenty of augmented people,
but for those who don't want to alter their bodies permanently can just wear an exo-skeleton or power armour that can be taken off like a suit.
Then create some helmets with telecommunications and augmented reality capabilities compatible with eye and ear implants.

That way no one ends up being out of the job because they can't or won't get the permanent upgrades, but at the end of the day
they can just take off all the extra stuff and return to being a normal human when they go home after work.

What do you all think about this?

Sounds a bit unrealistic, to be honest. An Advanced Warfare exo suit requirement for a job would still fall to the individuals to procure, and if jobs were asked to offer them to their employees it would just be more incentive not to hire non-augmented. Aka: "Either you have to buy it or we have to buy it for you, in which case why not go with these other people who have the same thing but cost us nothing?"

I see exo suits as being more of a first step, with augmentations probably following not too long after. And with that, it only makes sense to preform genetic enhancement rather than electronic. No one wants their new "I Hand" to glitch and end up looking like a Parasyte: The Maxim mother funker. The evident, best way to advance ourselves would be through genetic modification, so rather than importing new and equally flawed software that may clash with our own (or be hacked), we improve upon and further stabilize what is already in place and natural to ourselves.


But back to the original topic (I'm alright with this taking any number of tangents, but I want the original to still go on if you guys aren't done with it, yet), any other thoughts on the "morality" of augmentation or genetic modification?

The major problem with cybernetic augmentations is that you can't just slap on a pair of robot arms on a person and expect them to lift far more than they could with natural limbs. A person would need reinforced shoulders, spine, hips, and legs to handle the increased strain. All costly procedures and that's not including the time spent in recovery and rehabilitation to adjust to the augmentations. Then there would be the maintenance costs. I'd say that cybernetics like the kind seen in Black Ops 3 exist solely in the realm of fiction.

Exoskeletons, by comparison, would be cheaper to produce, simpler to maintain, can be transferred from one user to another, no costly medical procedures. It's a better alternative. Though, would we be talking about the man-sized frames like those in Elysium and Advanced Warfare or are we talking about larger suits like the Power Loader from Aliens and the Silverback from Gears of War?

Now in the case of genetic modification I'd be more worried about an advent of eugenics; an industry of designer human beings. Suddenly there would be two kinds of humans, the enhanced and the mundane, widening the divide between classes even further.

[primalcaller ergos]

I have an idea for how to help allieviate strain that could occur between augmented and non-augmented people.

Why not create devices that can be worn on the outside of your body that can replicate the same performance that cyborgs can do?

For example: A workplace that needs workers with above human level strength would employ plenty of augmented people,
but for those who don't want to alter their bodies permanently can just wear an exo-skeleton or power armour that can be taken off like a suit.
Then create some helmets with telecommunications and augmented reality capabilities compatible with eye and ear implants.

That way no one ends up being out of the job because they can't or won't get the permanent upgrades, but at the end of the day
they can just take off all the extra stuff and return to being a normal human when they go home after work.

What do you all think about this?

Sounds a bit unrealistic, to be honest. An Advanced Warfare exo suit requirement for a job would still fall to the individuals to procure, and if jobs were asked to offer them to their employees it would just be more incentive not to hire non-augmented. Aka: "Either you have to buy it or we have to buy it for you, in which case why not go with these other people who have the same thing but cost us nothing?"

I see exo suits as being more of a first step, with augmentations probably following not too long after. And with that, it only makes sense to preform genetic enhancement rather than electronic. No one wants their new "I Hand" to glitch and end up looking like a Parasyte: The Maxim mother funker. The evident, best way to advance ourselves would be through genetic modification, so rather than importing new and equally flawed software that may clash with our own (or be hacked), we improve upon and further stabilize what is already in place and natural to ourselves.


But back to the original topic (I'm alright with this taking any number of tangents, but I want the original to still go on if you guys aren't done with it, yet), any other thoughts on the "morality" of augmentation or genetic modification?

The major problem with cybernetic augmentations is that you can't just slap on a pair of robot arms on a person and expect them to lift far more than they could with natural limbs. A person would need reinforced shoulders, spine, hips, and legs to handle the increased strain. All costly procedures and that's not including the time spent in recovery and rehabilitation to adjust to the augmentations. Then there would be the maintenance costs. I'd say that cybernetics like the kind seen in Black Ops 3 exist solely in the realm of fiction.

Exoskeletons, by comparison, would be cheaper to produce, simpler to maintain, can be transferred from one user to another, no costly medical procedures. It's a better alternative. Though, would we be talking about the man-sized frames like those in Elysium and Advanced Warfare or are we talking about larger suits like the Power Loader from Aliens and the Silverback from Gears of War?

Now in the case of genetic modification I'd be more worried about an advent of eugenics; an industry of designer human beings. Suddenly there would be two kinds of humans, the enhanced and the mundane, widening the divide between classes even further.

You are both very correct: It would all come down to which option would cost more, but I was hoping the cost of both would be about the same.

I was also hoping that any full body augments or exo-suits would also have a cost equivalent to about what it costs nowadays to purchase a car:
Nowadays people are expected to purchase their own vehicle to transport themselves to and from work, with companies that offer their own
transportation(company car, company bus or train) being less common. So I was thinking that we could base the cost on that.
Not to mention this would also open the way for the augs and suits to become consumer products: something you can buy for recreation as well.

As for biological modification, I would hope that such things would also become a commonplace consumer product the middle class can enjoy.
Stuff like this could lead to immortality or perfect health, which the former could cause an overpoplation crisis and the latter could turn into
a health care/civil rights issue via the poorer classes proclaiming that denying them access is condemning them to death.
Worse yet, if the technology can only be used on humans that are as of yet unborn or even unconceived, that would mean society would
like you said, be divided into "normal" natural born humans that the "super human" babies that children of weathy parents would have.

Our society already has more than enough division between wealth classes, creating physical/biological differences on top of that could be disaterous.