"Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hymn’"

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Silver Seren
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"Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hymn’"

#1 Post by Silver Seren »

Now I know we're going to have fun with this topic. :P Here's one of the articles:

http://gawker.com/5914231/indiana-churc ... i+gay-hymn

And i'm not even going to make a comment at this point, I think my (and hopefully everyone on this forum's) stance in regards to this is self-evident. Though I will add that I like this comment that someone made in the comment section for the article:

"I notice every time some hateful church group does something awful, people ask that same question, "How can they call themselves Christians?" Or they put Christian in quotation marks, calling them "Christians," as if they are not acting like Christians but are an anomaly. The thing is, at some point we have to start realizing that this IS how Christians act. Not all of them, of course, but those Quotation Mark Christians are hateful not in spite of the fact they are Christians but BECAUSE they are Christians. They are being hateful because they are acting on their Christian beliefs, the same way that Christians who do good are acting on their beliefs. There are two kinds of Christians with two different interpretations of Christianity; neither should be put in quotation marks. Christianity can work for good or evil, with both sides thinking they are doing the right thing, just like any other religion/cult."

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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#2 Post by Sebbie »

This seems appropriate to your comment, Silver:
Steven Weinberg wrote:With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#3 Post by Silver Seren »

Sebbie wrote:This seems appropriate to your comment, Silver:
Steven Weinberg wrote:With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
I like that quote.

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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#4 Post by MeaCulpa, S.C.M. »

It would be immensely comforting to think that religion was required for a good person to do evil, and so as long as you were a good person, you could avoid religion and therefore avoid doing evil. How strangely similar, in that discourse, is religion to the Devil.

Good people have been doing evil things since good people and evil things have been around. They didn't need a "religion" (and, since the definition of that word has historically changed to meet the needs of whoever was using it, I will have to ask for your definition) to do it. We'd do it for a leader, or because we want our father's recognition. Haven't you heard someone say "My country, right or wrong?" Will that not nearly invariably lead them to do evil? Are these "religion" also?

Don't good people do bad things on their own, given the wrong situation? Perhaps out of fear of failure, disgrace, or their own destruction? They may regret it right after, but the deed is done. Are these "religion" also?

Suppose a bill were to be passed in federal Congress tomorrow that forbade all gay marriages and civil unions, or the use of any kind of firearm for any reason, (to keep this as politically neutral as possible) in any state. Can you really say with complete confidence that there would not be some form of rioting? In that rioting, would there be no good people committing evil deeds? Would they not cause undue pain, misery, destruction, and perhaps even death upon their fellow human beings? Are these "religion" also?

Good people do bad things whenever their worldview is compromised. That worldview might be that a just God reigns over all creation. It might be that they worked to get where they are, dammit, and they're not obliged to give someone else a free lunch. It might be that they just wanted to be treated fairly, after all, and marry who they wanted; shouldn't everyone want that? And when those worldviews are compromised, when those principles are violated, good people do bad things. It's that simple.

The men and women in this church are very conscious of what's going on around them. Their way of seeing the world, at least in this fashion, is dying. That may mean different things to each of them. But someday, you might be in a similar situation. I suspect quite a few of us will be. Pray that others think to look past a chance to reinforce their own beliefs (even though you didn't) and see you for what you are: people.

Of course, to a modern mind, saying anything in defense of religious motivations is so mad that they will not even acknowledge the argument's existence, as this thread is beginning to show.
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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#5 Post by TheDragonfiend »

Sebbie wrote:This seems appropriate to your comment, Silver:
Steven Weinberg wrote:With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
Only problem is there is no such thing as "Good" or "Evil" when talking about people as only there actions are Good or Evil.

For instance Imagine this hitler didnt do all the stuff he did... Is he still evil... No, but by claiming that people are either good or evil then he was still evil but he just didnt do evil deeds.

Do you see what im getting at... Plus there is the fact that good and evil is relative.

Eg being a teenager i am put under many restrictions for the sake of restriction (no youtube in school... Whats that you say its to increase productivity well thats fine... Oh wait i only use youtube during my free period!!!)

While many peeple deem this a good deed because it "Helps the childrens education" i believe its a "Bad"(i wouldnt use evil for something like this) deed because it restricts my freedom to spend my free time as i wish without actually doing anything else... "Rules for the sake of rules".
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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#6 Post by Ravenous222 »

Silver Seren wrote:
Sebbie wrote:This seems appropriate to your comment, Silver:
Steven Weinberg wrote:With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
I like that quote.
Ditto for me, that's a good one. Now, I was raised in a religious home, and am still on the fence with a lot of my beliefs and consider myself a religious man. But there's something just so WRONG about this kind of exposure to young children ya know? They aren't old enough to make their own decisions, and when people shove their own beliefs into their little heads, it's practically indoctrinating them in my opinion. What are the odds that this young kid has no idea what he's even singing about hm? I'd say pretty high.
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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#7 Post by MrFlyingAmoeba »

Eg being a teenager i am put under many restrictions for the sake of restriction (no youtube in school... Whats that you say its to increase productivity well thats fine... Oh wait i only use youtube during my free period!!!)

While many peeple deem this a good deed because it "Helps the childrens education" i believe its a "Bad"(i wouldnt use evil for something like this) deed because it restricts my freedom to spend my free time as i wish without actually doing anything else... "Rules for the sake of rules".
That's because indulging in such things, even during a free period, sets your mind on matters outside of school. Granted, you're probably doing that anyway, but why make matters worse? Switching mental gears back and forth isn't a good idea, you know.
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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#8 Post by MeaCulpa, S.C.M. »

Ravenous222 wrote:
Silver Seren wrote:
Sebbie wrote:This seems appropriate to your comment, Silver:
Steven Weinberg wrote:With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
I like that quote.
Ditto for me, that's a good one. Now, I was raised in a religious home, and am still on the fence with a lot of my beliefs and consider myself a religious man. But there's something just so WRONG about this kind of exposure to young children ya know? They aren't old enough to make their own decisions, and when people shove their own beliefs into their little heads, it's practically indoctrinating them in my opinion. What are the odds that this young kid has no idea what he's even singing about hm? I'd say pretty high.
I think it's a common modern prejudice that cannot be backed up with facts in any real way. Not that good people doing bad things is not possible with religion, but that it is easily possible with countless other motivations. :/
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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#9 Post by Wynni »

Parents indoctrinating their children is pretty much how nature intended child rearing to work. It was the best method to ensure survival.

Unfortunately, this works for bad teachings as well as good ones. I have to agree with Mea's assessment of 'worldview' over 'religion', and i can illustrate it using examples from mainstream entertainment, too.

Anyone remember a movie called "Gattaca"? The scientist who actually committed the murder was supposed to be genetically incapable of such an act, but the space mission was so overridingly important to him, a relatively good man was willing to commit murder. Every other episode of any serial like 'Murder she wrote' has a similar theme.

and I think, as others have surely stated before: if you are going to call yourself a Christian, you have to follow Christ's teachings. It is fairly obvious if you are peddling hate, you are NOT following Christ.
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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#10 Post by Sebbie »

I should step back in and say that I posted that quote because I thought Silver might like it, not because I 100% agree with it. In fact, I think MeaCulpa is right: it's not religion per se that can make people do bad things; it's any kind of blind belief or strong authority (the Milgram experiment comes to mind). Religion is an example of blind belief and strong authority that can motivate people to do bad things, but by no means is it the only one.
Wynni wrote:and I think, as others have surely stated before: if you are going to call yourself a Christian, you have to follow Christ's teachings. It is fairly obvious if you are peddling hate, you are NOT following Christ.
This is something I take issue with. Your definition of Christian may mean that someone is required to follow your interpretation of Christ's teachings according to your version of the Bible, but that does not mean that someone who doesn't conform to your definition can't consider themselves Christian. The determining factor in whether or not someone is a Christian is whether or not they consider themselves one; end of story. Now, you can be scientific and categorical about it and come up with a firm definition of "Christian" and assign people into that category; that's fine. But from a sociological perspective, the social group of "Christians" is just the group of people who label themselves as such; no other criteria are necessary. So, for instance, Fred Phelps may go against many of your core beliefs, but from a sociological perspective, he is, in fact, a Christian.
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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#11 Post by Katsuray »

In a world where one's own culture determines whether actions, and people are good or evil; it would be difficult to articulate a methodology to determine how an individual would transfer from one label to another in identity or actions.

Egocentricity in culture will almost always favor your own culture in the value of early education; in that same line of thinking, dissent towards one's own culture will favor a different of modified culture.

On these terms, I would hold that it is inappropriate judge the practices of another culture due to the intrinsic bias held by any nonmember--or dissenting member--of the to-be judged culture.

That said, we have it among ourselves to shape the people--and thereby the cultures--of those around us in society. In that vane, our reactions and interactions should be to improve each other the ways we think best--determined, intrinsically, by our own ideologies and culture--.

In the interest of respect, we must never forget the sovereign nature of others' culture to their hearts; while an internal reaction may take any shape or form, bound by emotions of our perspective, I would suggest care in exposing such a raw reaction to anyone but oneself--lest it foment a negative attitude towards such a thought--.

Does religion impact the cultural identity of an individual? Yes.

Does that impact have a negative effect? That is entirely up to interpretation.

Does my own interpretation find this (op) unfavorable? Yes.
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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#12 Post by MeaCulpa, S.C.M. »

Sebbie wrote:I should step back in and say that I posted that quote because I thought Silver might like it, not because I 100% agree with it. In fact, I think MeaCulpa is right: it's not religion per se that can make people do bad things; it's any kind of blind belief or strong authority (the Milgram experiment comes to mind). Religion is an example of blind belief and strong authority that can motivate people to do bad things, but by no means is it the only one.
Wynni wrote:and I think, as others have surely stated before: if you are going to call yourself a Christian, you have to follow Christ's teachings. It is fairly obvious if you are peddling hate, you are NOT following Christ.
This is something I take issue with. Your definition of Christian may mean that someone is required to follow your interpretation of Christ's teachings according to your version of the Bible, but that does not mean that someone who doesn't conform to your definition can't consider themselves Christian. The determining factor in whether or not someone is a Christian is whether or not they consider themselves one; end of story. Now, you can be scientific and categorical about it and come up with a firm definition of "Christian" and assign people into that category; that's fine. But from a sociological perspective, the social group of "Christians" is just the group of people who label themselves as such; no other criteria are necessary. So, for instance, Fred Phelps may go against many of your core beliefs, but from a sociological perspective, he is, in fact, a Christian.
I think she's just saying that, structurally, Fred Phelps' ministry divides from Christ's ministry on key points, which is a defensible statement.
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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#13 Post by Sebbie »

Oh, certainly, and for pretty much any reasonable interpretation of the Biblical Christ, I agree. What I wanted to make clear is that I disagree with claims like "Fred Phelps [or whomever] does not follow Christ's teachings, therefore he's not a Christian."
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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#14 Post by Wynni »

A person can call himself or herself whatever s/he wants, but as my Grandmother would say "Proof's in the pudding." We are always defined by our actions more than our words- or our beliefs. As I understand the term Atheist, that precludes a belief in a God. By this definition, someone who holds a belief in a Supreme Deity cannot be an Atheist, no matter what he considers himself.

Christ had a particular code, and the most important one was "love your neighbor even as you love yourself" If you aren't spreading Christ's love and forgiveness, you ain't Christian.

I also hold the same standard to other beliefs: You can call yourself as you please, but if you aren't following the tenents of those beliefs you might as well call yourself a spotted cow; it's just as true.

i.e. there has to be some conformity to the definition of the faith for there to be any usefulness in the label at all.
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Re: "Church Urges On Four-Year-Old Boy Singing Anti-Gay ‘Hym

#15 Post by Kinuki »

Fred Phelps ain't no true Scotsman Christian.
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