Why are visual novels considered games?

For all your seizure inducing goodness!

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
ButterBall
Grand Templar
Posts: 1773
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:00 am
Location: Corvallis, Oregon

Why are visual novels considered games?

#1 Post by ButterBall »

I'm really trying to wrap my head around this but from the few visual novels I've seen like Sakura Spirit or GoGo Nippon, I just haven't seen anything substantial enough to call it a game. To me, they seem more like a choose your own adventure picture book; a thing I'd find on a Kindle or in a bookstore. I just don't understand why they're showing up in places like Steam or in video game Let's Plays and when comments call out "where's the gameplay?" the responses are "that is the gameplay" referring to pushing the button to load the next page of text.
*Used to be a guy people knew at one time.*
Avatar by druanderson. Some things are very NSFW.
Image

User avatar
Schrodinger
Worth 1000 Words
Posts: 7575
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:43 am
Location: Neither here nor there

Re: Why are visual novels considered games?

#2 Post by Schrodinger »

I've fielded this discussion before and I came to a conclusion. Visual Novels are digital medium distinct from games, some have more or less gameplay. The comparison with Choose Your Own Adventure novels is an apt one, in both your decisions have far reaching consequences and can change the narrative dramatically. It comes down to agency. Mass Effect also has dialog options that can greatly alter the course of the story but between that is the shoot-outs that have a more immediate impact. Conversely you have the Call of Duty series where the player character has little to no agency in the story other than go here, do that.
What was it the spider said to the fly...

User avatar
TinyVoices
Templar Inner Circle
Posts: 6275
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:08 pm
Location: https://goo.gl/7ARWF4
Fav. Twokinds Character: Kat

Re: Why are visual novels considered games?

#3 Post by TinyVoices »

I am gonna be blunt, here.
ButterBall wrote:I just haven't seen anything substantial enough to call it a game.
Really, though, all they are are generally video games. Yes, they might be a choose your own adventure type thing, but when you boil anything RPG down enough, that's what you get. Go left, fight that monster/seduce that girl, victory. Which is why I've seen them as video games and never as "visual novels".

A visual novel is a fancy way of saying picture book. Something you see in the K-3 isle in your library. For comparison, I don't generally call most romance genre books (such as Twilight or 50 Shades of Grey) as novels. They're soft core, text pornography, if anything. And, much more often than not, that's all dating sims are. To some extent, they're porn. And "visual novels" such as that one handicapped people one (Katawa or something?) are often just dating sims, it seems.

Maybe that's the loud minority? I digress.

"Visual Novels" aren't novels, in my opinion. That's like comparing something Salvidor Dali made, to one of those multi-million dollar Rorschach blobs. Close, maybe, but no cigar. "Novel" is something astounding. Having fantasy sex with a fictitious Japanese girl is not. If anything, it's a dating sim, which is a video game.

User avatar
Insomniac
The Experienced Virgin
Posts: 5201
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:09 pm
Location: circling the drain
Fav. Twokinds Character: Natani

Re: Why are visual novels considered games?

#4 Post by Insomniac »

I don't have any mind blowing theories here, but...My little bro did a book report on the first Phoenix Wright game. Apparently even teachers consider visual novels to be more book than game :mrgreen:
From the Sergals and Sergal Lovers channel of F-List's chat system (Beyond NSFW, by the way): Honey, you ain't the only abnormal sergal in here. We got three pink northerns, a fairy, and a dork with a talking sword.

User avatar
y7h65
The Unpronounceable
Posts: 3608
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:00 pm
Location: ???

Re: Why are visual novels considered games?

#5 Post by y7h65 »

First of all, I'm gonna say that I'm on the same boat as Schro. Visual Novels are a medium onto their own. Some of them might have more video game elements and some of them might not but they're a different thing entirely. For example, Ace Attorney would be an example of a Visual Novel with more video game elements while Fate/Stay Night is an example of a Visual Novel with little to no video game elements. A game that I would use as an example as a hybrid between Visual Novel and Video Game would be Persona.

Of course, my main issue is with TinyVoices's input. Simply put, you're being racist. I get that OK, you don't understand Japanese. That doesn't mean you should go about referring to the language as gobbledygook. I mean, visual novels aren't just dating sims nor are they all porn. I won't deny that there are a lot of Visual Novels that have both properties but I think it's unfair to typecast a medium.

Also, from what I can understand, Visual Novels are a branch of Light Novels which are in itself a development of Pulp Magazines. So if anything, they have more in common with Comic Books than picture books.
Local Type Moon Fanatic.
Image

User avatar
TinyVoices
Templar Inner Circle
Posts: 6275
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:08 pm
Location: https://goo.gl/7ARWF4
Fav. Twokinds Character: Kat

Re: Why are visual novels considered games?

#6 Post by TinyVoices »

y7h65 wrote:Of course, my main issue is with TinyVoices's input.
That is actually pretty messed up of me. I don't know where that thorn in my side came from, but I went ahead and removed it from my post. But I think I was moreso mentioning the common theme that is often used in titles and character names and such. Even if it's seemingly racist to point it out, you can't say that it isn't true.
y7h65 wrote:I won't deny that there are a lot of Visual Novels that have both properties but I think it's unfair to typecast a medium.

Also, from what I can understand, Visual Novels are a branch of Light Novels which are in itself a development of Pulp Magazines. So if anything, they have more in common with Comic Books than picture books.
It is unfair. But generally if 80-90% of what I know about a subject ends up being X, then I think that subject is X. I've heard a lot about visual novels, but they haven't generally been all that "good", so...

And comic books, while being better than some variation of Playboy like what I've seen VNs to be, aren't that better either. They're culturally rich, though. And often very artistic and vibrant. Depending on what you're reading, of course, but hey for the most part they are pretty okey.

User avatar
y7h65
The Unpronounceable
Posts: 3608
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:00 pm
Location: ???

Re: Why are visual novels considered games?

#7 Post by y7h65 »

First of all, for the name issue, I'm just gonna point to the fact that a lot of the visual novels listed here don't have completely Japanese names. While some of the entries on that list may be contestable, the trend is that whenever a Visual Novel does receive an English translation, the title also receives an English Translation unless the Title is something that lends to the thematic feel of the Visual Novel or is something untranslatable. For the first case, I'll use Go! Go! Nippon! ~My First Trip to Japan~ that was mentioned in Butterball's post. I think that by leaving the title partially untranslated and having a complete English title with it provides the feeling of someone's first trip to a new country with a different language. You don't understand most of what's going on but every now and then you catch something that you can make out. For the second case, I'll use the title of the Visual Novel Kira-Kira. The title is derived from the Japanese onomatopoeia for the gleam of a shiny object, a word that lacks any true English equivalent.

As for why character names are untranslated, well that's easy. It's the characters name. I mean, sure there's meaning behind what the name means but the translated version of the name with meaning tends to be something rather long. This is because many, many Chinese characters tend to be, in turn, made of smaller condensed or shrunken Chinese characters. That's the problem with Chinese characters in general, especially in Japanese. For example, in Steins;Gate the main character's real name is Hououin Kyouma. That's his name for all intents and purposes. But if you were to translate it's meaning then you get, depending on how you read the characters of his name, something along the lines Phoenix Temple, Madness of Truth. Bottom line is, they leave the character name untranslated because that's their name. Of course, you could do something like give them English names but that tends to happen a lot anyways.

Finally, addressing your last point: I'm not saying they're better than novel nor am I saying that all Visual Novels should be considered novels. A lot of them are mostly just porn with plot yes. But falling back to my comic analogy, you get things like Punisher Max, Sonic Comics, and Maus. Just because a majority of comics are things like Punisher Max or Sonic Comics doesn't mean you should discount the good of the group. I mean, the previously mentioned Steins;Gate is one of the best Visual Novels I've read recently with some twists and turns that rival (or beat in some cases) the complexity in some of the novels I've read. Meanwhile, 999 and Virtue's Last Reward are two portable Visual Novels that have both achieved Critical Acclaim among North American reviewers. So not all Visual novels have porn in them. In fact, a fair number of Visual novels with sexual content get an all ages patch that removes the sexual content and quite a few of those have been translated into English as well.

To summarize, the names of the Visual Novels are usually translated unless the names are untranslatable or lend to the feel of the work; character names are untranslated because direct translation will give you a huge mess unless you give them a thematically similar English name; and just because a genre has some bad or meh works in it, that doesn't mean there aren't any great works that fall under that category.
Local Type Moon Fanatic.
Image

User avatar
Ketzal
Templar GrandMaster
Posts: 807
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:59 am
Location: *Insert witty location joke here*

Re: Why are visual novels considered games?

#8 Post by Ketzal »

Not really sure what the conversation is between y7 and Tiny, so I'm just gonna focus on the main topic.

I decided to look up the definition of a video game according to google. I got this:
Google wrote:a game played by electronically manipulating images produced by a computer program on a television screen or other display screen.
If I were to go strictly by the definition, then I'd say visual novels are considered games because they fit the bill: despite the lack of any real input, you're technically manipulating images on the screen by clicking the next button and moving the story along, therefore setting up new visual cues to correlate with the story. Or your making dialogue choices or doing a minigame within the game itself, depending on what game/novel we're talking about.

Outside of that? I don't see how a visual novel's a game, but I find it tricky labeling the right games as visual novels. I'd consider Heavy Rain and Phoenix Wright to be games because of the investigation and puzzle elements to them. Stuff like Walking Dead? Yeah, you have some shootout moments and quick-time events, but for the most part it's just a story with some dialogue input that you can manipulate.

I don't see anything wrong with visual novels, mind you. Aside from the ones that play out like a teenager's wet dream, I love visual novels, and have no problem with playing or reading them, however you want to consider it.

User avatar
Envy661
Envy x Banned Forever
Posts: 1608
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 10:50 pm
Location: Back in the Yamaku Dorms, cuddlin' it up with Emi where I belong.
Contact:

Re: Why are visual novels considered games?

#9 Post by Envy661 »

.... Meh. They're more of a game than Dear Esther. I guess there's that.

Katawa Shoujo is still my fave Visual Novel.
ɔıƃol ʎʌuǝ ǝsnɐɔǝq
Image
deviantART | Steam Account | Forum Sigs | Otaku Streamers
Message me for access to the Twokinds Unoffical Official Skype Chat!

User avatar
Schrodinger
Worth 1000 Words
Posts: 7575
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:43 am
Location: Neither here nor there

Re: Why are visual novels considered games?

#10 Post by Schrodinger »

Envy661 wrote:.... Meh. They're more of a game than Dear Esther. I guess there's that.

Katawa Shoujo is still my fave Visual Novel.
Fate/Zero is mine.
What was it the spider said to the fly...

User avatar
Insomniac
The Experienced Virgin
Posts: 5201
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:09 pm
Location: circling the drain
Fav. Twokinds Character: Natani

Re: Why are visual novels considered games?

#11 Post by Insomniac »

Schrodinger wrote:
Envy661 wrote:.... Meh. They're more of a game than Dear Esther. I guess there's that.

Katawa Shoujo is still my fave Visual Novel.
Fate/Zero is mine.
Off topic, but I've seen the anime of Fate/Zero. Sadly the only Fate/ anime on Netflix at the moment, very interesting.
From the Sergals and Sergal Lovers channel of F-List's chat system (Beyond NSFW, by the way): Honey, you ain't the only abnormal sergal in here. We got three pink northerns, a fairy, and a dork with a talking sword.

User avatar
y7h65
The Unpronounceable
Posts: 3608
Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:00 pm
Location: ???

Re: Why are visual novels considered games?

#12 Post by y7h65 »

Insomniac wrote:
Schrodinger wrote:
Envy661 wrote:.... Meh. They're more of a game than Dear Esther. I guess there's that.

Katawa Shoujo is still my fave Visual Novel.
Fate/Zero is mine.
Off topic, but I've seen the anime of Fate/Zero. Sadly the only Fate/ anime on Netflix at the moment, very interesting.
Fate/Zero was a light novel. Fate/stay night was the visual novel.

Also, Insomniac. Trust me. You do not want to see the original Fate/Stay Night anime. It wasn't bad per see, just a terrible adaption. But they are releasing a new Fate/Stay Night anime this fall and it will be glorious. Done by the same studio as the one that did Fate/Zero.

Also, Kira*Kira and Steins;Gate are my current favourite, discounting anything Fate/ since it should be obvious I love everything Type-Moon.
Local Type Moon Fanatic.
Image

User avatar
Schrodinger
Worth 1000 Words
Posts: 7575
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:43 am
Location: Neither here nor there

Re: Why are visual novels considered games?

#13 Post by Schrodinger »

Ah, so my memory is fallible after all. Well, Danganronpa: Trigger Happy Havoc then.

Image
What was it the spider said to the fly...

User avatar
Nuff
The One With the Ears
Posts: 5017
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:51 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Why are visual novels considered games?

#14 Post by Nuff »

Visual novels are difficult to call games unless they have some form of actual game attatched to them. The visual novel concept is a way of delivering a story with the (normally quite mildy and restricted) input of the reader. Really it's a media of it's own, the fusion of traditional choose your own stories (I remember reading some Goosebumps choose your own story books back in the day) and more modern technology. Because of this I feel it's difficult to pinpoint what it actually is besides it's own unique genre. I think the major reason we see games like these pop up on steam is not because of how much of a game they are but more that the target audience for them is all over steam, the younger males who are into anime are the ones who tend to like this kinda thing, especially if they get to romance some lovely looking girl with bright blue hair. It's worth noting that The Walk Dead and The Wolf Among Us games by Telltale are basically storytelling with a little bit of scripted gameplay in it. It's slightly more involving but is it really that different?

Post Reply