The new Xbox.

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Insomniac
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Re: The new Xbox.

#196 Post by Insomniac »

Tygron wrote:Sweet mother of SNIP
Here's the thing though...Used games don't take money away from developers, because for a game to be used, it has to be bought new first. Meaning they already got their money out of it. Any used game sale isn't a sale the developers don't profit from, it's a sale they already profited from once. I've made the argument before that manufacturers don't deserve to profit from the same product twice. It applies to cars, and to everything else, including video games.
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Re: The new Xbox.

#197 Post by MrFlyingAmoeba »

Used games do hurt the developers, because the person playing the used game is playing the used game rather than a new copy, meaning instead of selling two games, the developers only get profits for one.
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Re: The new Xbox.

#198 Post by Akira110 »

MrFlyingAmoeba wrote:Used games do hurt the developers, because the person playing the used game is playing the used game rather than a new copy, meaning instead of selling two games, the developers only get profits for one.
There's a timeframe where this argument is valid. Outside of this timeframe, the only way to get the game is the used game market.
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Re: The new Xbox.

#199 Post by Insomniac »

Akira110 wrote:
MrFlyingAmoeba wrote:Used games do hurt the developers, because the person playing the used game is playing the used game rather than a new copy, meaning instead of selling two games, the developers only get profits for one.
There's a timeframe where this argument is valid. Outside of this timeframe, the only way to get the game is the used game market.
That's not entirely accurate. I bought Eternal Darkness new at WalMart about five years after it came out. Best fifty dollars I ever spent.
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Re: The new Xbox.

#200 Post by Akira110 »

Insomniac wrote:
Akira110 wrote:
MrFlyingAmoeba wrote:Used games do hurt the developers, because the person playing the used game is playing the used game rather than a new copy, meaning instead of selling two games, the developers only get profits for one.
There's a timeframe where this argument is valid. Outside of this timeframe, the only way to get the game is the used game market.
That's not entirely accurate. I bought Eternal Darkness new at WalMart about five years after it came out. Best fifty dollars I ever spent.
Didn't invalidate my argument. Sure, there MIGHT be new copies in production being sold five years after a game has been made, I was more referring to 10 or more years.
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Re: The new Xbox.

#201 Post by Tygron »

Still depends on the game. Some games you just won't find 5 years later. But certainly will be really hard to find after 10. 'Somni while you make sense, unfortunately that's not quite how it works. No I don't think developers should get money for the used game, it was already bought. But if that used game gets passed around then that's less new copies that would have money go directly to them.
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Re: The new Xbox.

#202 Post by Insomniac »

Tygron wrote:Still depends on the game. Some games you just won't find 5 years later. But certainly will be really hard to find after 10. 'Somni while you make sense, unfortunately that's not quite how it works. No I don't think developers should get money for the used game, it was already bought. But if that used game gets passed around then that's less new copies that would have money go directly to them.
Again, the same applies to cars. A car that gets resold a few times is that many new cars that the manufacturers don't get money for.
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Re: The new Xbox.

#203 Post by Tygron »

I don't think i've ever heard that comparison before. That's very true.
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Re: The new Xbox.

#204 Post by EvilNinjadude »

Tygron wrote:I don't think i've ever heard that comparison before. That's very true.
Now please stop comparing video games to physical Objects before I have to start slapping you guys around. No offense but please don't start talking out of your arses. (NOT you in particular Tygron)


Cost to design a car is very high. Costs per car are high. Retail cost of car is high. When a consumer buys a car it's because he needs it. If it breaks he'll buy another, and he won't give away his car because its novelty has worn off.

Costs to design a game are VERY high. Costs to make an individual game for retail are insanely low in comparison, at almost Zero for digitally distributed games. But the retail price of a game is also very low in comparison to the design cost.


Games by their very nature need to sell a ton after they've been designed to make the effort worthwhile. You can just not design a new car concept, make a working car, and sell that working car. Games don't work like that in any way. You take a bunch of money from someone, then sit down to make the game while feeling the lenders' stare drilling holes in your backs, then you release the game and hope to god that enough people buy it. Unless we're talking about CoD, a game must feel fresh and new every time. Imagine people refusing to buy a car because they've had a car from that brand before!

1. Games have no wear and tear, cars do.
2. People don't get tired of owning a car and then pass it to their friend.
3. The market revenue model for games is VASTLY different from that of cars.

QED: You can't compare the two.

Now that's just what my thoughts combining obvious facts into a conclusion. No external bias.


If you want more, please watch This Video and skip about four minutes in. I'm not taking his opinion for my own. I don't "agree with him". We just happen to believe the same thing, and both of us apparently feel that we're right and everyone else arguing the opposite better have a damn good reason to disagree (or to compare video games to cars).

What's your reason?
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Re: The new Xbox.

#205 Post by MrFlyingAmoeba »

Insomniac wrote:
Tygron wrote:Still depends on the game. Some games you just won't find 5 years later. But certainly will be really hard to find after 10. 'Somni while you make sense, unfortunately that's not quite how it works. No I don't think developers should get money for the used game, it was already bought. But if that used game gets passed around then that's less new copies that would have money go directly to them.
Again, the same applies to cars. A car that gets resold a few times is that many new cars that the manufacturers don't get money for.
I don't really care if someone's passing around the latest Call of Modern Duty Warfare Honor Medal 3 Black Ghosts Ops Battlefield, but it makes me uneasy to think that someone could do the same with, say, Journey or Bastion, since their profit margin is a lot smaller.

EDIT-And I do recommend you watch that video Evilninja put up, he makes some good points.
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Re: The new Xbox.

#206 Post by EvilNinjadude »

Gabriel of creosha wrote:Now I won't jump into the argument and start my own argumentative side, but I will say that for the most part MANY companies make extreme revenue of of used games, DLC, online passes, silver sandals add on packs, horse armor, upgrade packs, shortcut bundles, etc.

edit: evil, you ninja'd me. As well, good point Ameoba.
In the Video I linked, TotalBiscuit states that the money from used games goes to different people than the money from DLC.

Money from used games goes to the game retailer where you traded it in, after he sells it for profit.

Money from DLC goes digitally straight to the publisher UNLESS the DLC is not in fact DLC (downloadable content) but disk-based, allowing it to be traded in like a game. I'm not sure if that works... but TES:IV:SI and TES:IV:KotN were both additional content, sold on disks. Can they be re-used?
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Re: The new Xbox.

#207 Post by EvilNinjadude »

Gabriel of creosha wrote:
EvilNinjadude wrote:
Gabriel of creosha wrote:Now I won't jump into the argument and start my own argumentative side, but I will say that for the most part MANY companies make extreme revenue of of used games, DLC, online passes, silver sandals add on packs, horse armor, upgrade packs, shortcut bundles, etc.

edit: evil, you ninja'd me. As well, good point Ameoba.
In the Video I linked, TotalBiscuit states that the money from used games goes to different people than the money from DLC.

Money from used games goes to the game retailer where you traded it in, after he sells it for profit.

Money from DLC goes digitally straight to the publisher UNLESS the DLC is not in fact DLC (downloadable content) but disk-based, allowing it to be traded in like a game. I'm not sure if that works... but TES:IV:SI and TES:IV:KotN were both additional content, sold on disks. Can they be re-used?
The elder scrolls discs you speak of are RARE(maybe collectible, I have no idea). Beyond this... I think that you could not re-use them.
And most publishers sale one use codes in stores now or offer it from XBL marketplace or Sony Marketplace. Or the Wii Market... if nintendo games have DLC. I wouldn't know.
Mhm. And that's basic DRM. And I like this because it allows Users to be tracked by their codes, making sure no game trading happens if it's not intended.

I'm on PC and I don't get used games and I don't care about getting used games. The problem is that for Consoles, everyone has been letting them become a fixed part of the market... and therefore a fixed part of the appeal of consoles.

While used games may be hurting the devs and publishers, removing them from the market will start to alienate Consumers. Think of your "friend with benefits" wanting to become "just" your friend.


Speaking of alienating the consumers, so will unnecessary DRM that creates many tight hoops for users to jump through. While I approve of codes, and would even approve of them having a time limit before no longer being able to be redeemed, we gotta face the fact that this won't be possible with the current state of technology.
Your platform either breaks or becomes obsolete. In either case a one-time online-verify code will prevent you from reinstalling it... but if it didn't, how would anyone know that the code was entered by someone OTHER than you (meaning you Gave it away after using it)?

Nobody does. And until we can have non-invasive identity-verification (no kinects that everyone is afraid will spy on them) this two-sided dilemma will remain unresolved.

It's like keeping something safe: You have to be able to have access to it, but you also have to prevent others from getting access. If all you have are locks, chains, and safes (heavy-handed hoopy DRM), you will also make it harder for anyone who is MEANT to have access.
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Re: The new Xbox.

#208 Post by Sable Dove »

There is a very good solution to used games that benefits everyone. Just make games that are good. Games that people don't want to trade in.

Or, don't be so greedy with digital retail. You know how you can reduce the impacts of used games? Charge less for digital copies; especially when the distribution service is owned by you. There's no retailer in the middle of the chain, so why does a digital copy cost the same, or more, than a physical copy? If you make it more convenient - and potentially cheaper - to buy new, then suddenly used games aren't such a big deal.
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Re: The new Xbox.

#209 Post by EvilNinjadude »

Sable Dove wrote:There is a very good solution to used games that benefits everyone. Just make games that are good. Games that people don't want to trade in.

Or, don't be so greedy with digital retail. You know how you can reduce the impacts of used games? Charge less for digital copies; especially when the distribution service is owned by you. There's no retailer in the middle of the chain, so why does a digital copy cost the same, or more, than a physical copy? If you make it more convenient - and potentially cheaper - to buy new, then suddenly used games aren't such a big deal.
I can not vouch for the validity of this information, since I didn't know it before watching TotalBiscuit's video: But he says that retailers will not stock the game unless the prices there match their own price range.
He also states that this is the reason why games on steam are the same price as the games in stores, because the publishers want retailers to stock, display and advertise their game. He notes that this is fairly important.

Dunno how much of that is true, but I'm willing to believe it because a. It makes sense and b. I don't see why he should be lying.
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Re: The new Xbox.

#210 Post by Insomniac »

I think I can reasonably counter that, between pre-orders, new sales, DLC, and the ultimate insult of locked content on the disc they charge you extra for, developers of most modern games more than make back their costs. And using somethin like JOURNEY or BASTION as examples of games that buying used would hurt their developers is idiotic, considering they're digitally distributed and kinda can't be sold used. I don't mean any offense by that, but it's just a bad example that does nothing for your argument, Amoeba.
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