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Envy661
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Re: Star Citizen

#16 Post by Envy661 »

ButterBall wrote:If nothing else I can keep doing what I've been doing: playing through the old titles I never got to as a kid. They may not be modern, but they're new to me.

Check out Evochron Mercenary if you haven't.
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Re: Star Citizen

#17 Post by Ryusen »

There's one important thing to remember when comparing Elite Dangerous to Star Citizen, something incredibly important:

Star Citizen isn't even into alpha development yet, while Elite Dangerous already has a full game out! Arena Commander has been buggier than the Amazon for me. I've been able to play just two games since they released 1.0. Beyond that, the game is horrible optimized (my SLI 670 can only push 30fps in AC), loading takes forever, and a whole host of other issues plague this game. But the game is still in pre-alpha.

Other than that, Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen have different mantras behind them. They were not trying to compete for the same players. While they both exist in the same genre, they are being taken in different directions, and so don't necessarily directly compete with one another. Heck, Chris Roberts has publicly praised and linked to E:D on the Star Citizen website! They are obviously in it together, which is why I don't like the idea of being on one "team" or another.

Thirdly, SC is definitely taking a long time to develop. They do have grand plans that I'd love to see come to fruition, but nothing is coming quickly. This may seem like a problem upfront, but I believe their pace is actually better for the game long-term. Many companies will hurry, rush, and push out incomplete games these days. Just look at the current trends with EA, Ubisoft, and others (Aliens: Colonial Marines and Assassins Creed: Unity both come to mind). Chris Roberts has a long history in the space flight genre, and he has long been known as a perfectionist. He will delay incomplete and buggy software until it meets his demands. It reminds me of something Shigeru Miyamoto said:
Shigeru Miyamoto wrote:A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad
I'd love to be able to play Squadron 42 in just a few months! I'd love to get my hands on the Persistent Universe within a year! Chris Roberts has a history of pumping out excellent games, especially when he is given creative control. But that comes at a high cost; specifically, his projects are late. And that's OK. I want the game, but I'd rather they take their time and create a wonderful game that I could spend months (or years, here's hoping!) on than pump out a game full of bugs, low on feature, and then just pocket the money and run.
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Re: Star Citizen

#18 Post by SirSlaughter »

I'm with Ryusen on this one. I've had too many games come out that were basically worthless due to Triple A schedules. I want SC to be the space game it promised us. Not the Crew.

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Re: Star Citizen

#19 Post by Ryusen »

I can't do it. I just can't.

The Anniversary sale was too tempting. It was too much! I couldn't resist! I...I...

I bought the Banu Merchantman.

I'm sorry, wallet. I'm sorry, budget. But that cargo capacity was too great! The thrusters too powerful - I mean possibly three TR6 main thrusters! The speed, the sleek frame, the customization, it's just too beautiful! A moment of silence for our fallen dollars.

Moving past that, the Anniversary sale goes on until the end of the month. They have loads of ships on sale that haven't been so for about a year now, and this would be a great time for our friends in Europe to pick up a copy before VAT gets implemented. Also, many ships sold now come with a 24-month insurance policy, which should remove that small headache for at least a while. There may be no more stretch goals, but it isn't impossible for us to still thrust CIG past the $100 million mark by this time next year. See you in the Verse!
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Re: Star Citizen

#20 Post by Envy661 »

Ryusen wrote:I can't do it. I just can't.

The Anniversary sale was too tempting. It was too much! I couldn't resist! I...I...

I bought the Banu Merchantman.
Meanwhile I just dropped 6.6 million in-game credits in Elite: Dangerous. I now have an ASP.

I can't say I've given up on Star Citizen, so much as I'm no longer impressed by it.
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Re: Star Citizen

#21 Post by Ryusen »

Envy661 wrote:Meanwhile I just dropped 6.6 million in-game credits in Elite: Dangerous. I now have an ASP.

I can't say I've given up on Star Citizen, so much as I'm no longer impressed by it.
I feel like we've been down this path before, but there really isn't much about SC to enjoy right now. I'd be lying if I said I was having tons of fun with it (although Arena Commander is fun), but my comments about it being in alpha still stand. It's a great thing to see Elite: Dangerous going strong (though several communities find it dry and lacking at this time), and I think we all hope it will continue to grow and flourish as content gets added. Maybe in a year (or more :( ) when the Persistent Universe launches, we can revisit the issue. And by "revisit" I mean "missiles to the face"; and by "issue" I mean "in lawless space away from prying eyes".
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Re: Star Citizen

#22 Post by SirSlaughter »


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Re: Star Citizen

#23 Post by Envy661 »

Ryusen wrote:
Envy661 wrote:Meanwhile I just dropped 6.6 million in-game credits in Elite: Dangerous. I now have an ASP.

I can't say I've given up on Star Citizen, so much as I'm no longer impressed by it.
I feel like we've been down this path before, but there really isn't much about SC to enjoy right now. I'd be lying if I said I was having tons of fun with it (although Arena Commander is fun), but my comments about it being in alpha still stand. It's a great thing to see Elite: Dangerous going strong (though several communities find it dry and lacking at this time), and I think we all hope it will continue to grow and flourish as content gets added. Maybe in a year (or more :( ) when the Persistent Universe launches, we can revisit the issue. And by "revisit" I mean "missiles to the face"; and by "issue" I mean "in lawless space away from prying eyes".
I just looked up the Merchantman, because myself and one of my friends were actually talking about the fact that you made this purchase....

$250 DOLLARS MAN! SERIOUSLY! SERIOUSLY???? TWO-HUNDRED AND FIFTY [censored] DOLLARS!!!!! IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE LIFETIME INSURANCE!

MY BROKE [censored] CAN'T EVEN AFFORD THE [censored] CROSS-CHASSIS UPGRADE FOR MY 325A INTO A HORNET (the stock one), WHICH I DESPERATELY NEED, BY THE WAY!

$250... Good on you bro. Bet you can smell all those games you could have got just walking away from you.
Remember GTA V? For PC? And how that's something you can preorder right now? Yeah. Have fun. On a ship that isn't even out yet. On a ship that isn't even in the [censored] HANGAR yet.

/rant

(Not trying to be mean).
Spoiler!
I really like the fact that you can't buy ships in Elite: Dangerous with real world money. Btw how is the fact that you can currently buy in-game currency and ships for Star Citizen gonna work when the game actually comes out? Sounds like a dev's balancing nightmare.
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Re: Star Citizen

#24 Post by Insomniac »

Just a random nitpick here...Everywhere I see a post about it, people type Asp in all caps, and in every video where someone talks about it that I've seen, they outright say A S P. It's Asp. Y'know, like the snake? ...I can NOT be the only one who noticed that all/most of the ships in E:D are named after snakes. I can't. I refuse to accept even the remotest possibility that I am. Nope. I reject y'all's reality and substitute my Māmā tā mā de own. Rant over. See ya in the 'verse, space cowboys.
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Re: Star Citizen

#25 Post by Ryusen »

Envy661 wrote:$250... Good on you bro. Bet you can smell all those games you could have got just walking away from you.
Remember GTA V? For PC? And how that's something you can preorder right now? Yeah. Have fun. On a ship that isn't even out yet. On a ship that isn't even in the [censored] HANGAR yet.
Attitudes like these have always bothered me.

I didn't just put some money towards a game because I want to get a ship. I've been following Star Citizen since the Kickstarter, and I absolutely love all that they've done, all that they're currently planning, and the direction they seem to be going. The nature of the crowdfunding has let them do some very interesting things, seeing as they have no parent company to force deadlines on them and no shareholders/investors to pay back. This is the first game of its kind, and I believe it is worth investing in. Not that they necessarily need my money, but that we, as gamers, get to decide with our wallets. Our money is what dictates the state and progress of the gaming industry. What we support will thrive, and what we ignore will sink. By choosing to help fund Star Citizen, I am choosing to "vote with my money" that Chris Roberts and developers like him should be more common, and that people don't just want to see the same game re-hashed every year (how do you think they, at this time, have over $71 million in funding?). It's not a "I want this ship" kind of thing, but a "I want more of this game developing style" kind of incentive. The ship is purely a thank-you on their part. I could get every ship they will ever offer in game if I want, but I decided to kill two birds with one stone and support a game I've come to love.

Second, and more simply, your rant is no different than "Let me tell you how to spend your money!" and "You're not allowed to have fun that way!" I'm not telling you to go out and buy ships or support this game. What I do with my budget, and I have budgeted for this, is really not your business. And what if I'm not interested in GTA V? What if I really only have time to play one or two games at a time, and I prefer the MMO experience? Assuming I want to play the same games as you, in the same was as you, is just ignorant. We are different people, with different budgets, different playstyles, different interests, and obviously different approaches to games. You're more than welcome to not participate in this game or its funding, but don't make the mistake of assuming everyone else wants to be pigeonholed into the same type of gaming as you enjoy.

EDIT:

I read a wonderful post the other day regarding some of the hate Star Citizen seems to generate, even from other PC gamers. It's worth a read, and I'll link it here.

In short, he explains how delayed gratification is not something common in the Internet, especially these days. People see a big budget and time passes, and they get upset that more isn't happening. They mistake a lack of gameplay for lack progress, and don't understand all that's going on behind the curtain.

Your comment, Envy, actually ties in quite nicely. I don't expect to see my ship in game until Arena Commander 2.0 (or maybe a little after). I am giving them money and they return to me nothing but a promise of future development. But delayed gratification is a wonderful tool, and patience is a skill worth honing. And as odd as it may seem, sometimes the promise of fantasy can bring greater joy than the realization of reality. Maybe the game will be a flop, my money will be wasted, and all my time and energy was invested for nothing. That's a definite possibility. But the excitement and almost juvenile sense of wonder that I get is worth the risk, and many people seem to agree with the (to the tune of over $70 million). That can be hard to find these days, and that feeling - that sense of uncertainty and possibility and potential - just may be worth it.
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Re: Star Citizen

#26 Post by SirSlaughter »

I went with the avenger pledge and truth be told I want to pledge more for the race oriented ships. Because raceca-er...raceship.

Also, I like what Ryusen has done. If I could blow $250 on this game and budget for it I would. I really am excited for this game. I haven't touched it in forever because I'm just waiting for more to be done. This way for me it's an entire experience at once and I can really enjoy and be overwhelmed with what it offers. And besides envy, you've spent money on stupid things yourself. Don't say you haven't because I know you have.

I've blown over $100 on Firefall
Over $100 on Warframe
And I know damned well I have blown several hundred on League of Legends...(don't judge me)
then there was Blacklight, at least $75 if not more.


Actually, every single F2P game has received a nice little chunk of money from me that I have played. I do it because i like the game enough to give them money and I get some sweet gear in the process.

Oh and didn't you try to get the super mega package going in one of these threads? I'll bet you wish Ryusen had the money when you started that thread huh?
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Re: Star Citizen

#27 Post by Envy661 »

Insomniac wrote:Just a random nitpick here...Everywhere I see a post about it, people type Asp in all caps, and in every video where someone talks about it that I've seen, they outright say A S P. It's Asp. Y'know, like the snake? ...I can NOT be the only one who noticed that all/most of the ships in E:D are named after snakes. I can't. I refuse to accept even the remotest possibility that I am. Nope. I reject y'all's reality and substitute my Māmā tā mā de own. Rant over. See ya in the 'verse, space cowboys.
The Lakon ships aren't named after snakes though. Unless the Type-6, Type-7, and Type-9 are also all snakes. The ASP Explorer is a Lakon ship.
Ryusen wrote: I read a wonderful post the other day regarding some of the hate Star Citizen seems to generate, even from other PC gamers. It's worth a read, and I'll link it here.

In short, he explains how delayed gratification is not something common in the Internet, especially these days. People see a big budget and time passes, and they get upset that more isn't happening. They mistake a lack of gameplay for lack progress, and don't understand all that's going on behind the curtain.

Your comment, Envy, actually ties in quite nicely. I don't expect to see my ship in game until Arena Commander 2.0 (or maybe a little after). I am giving them money and they return to me nothing but a promise of future development. But delayed gratification is a wonderful tool, and patience is a skill worth honing. And as odd as it may seem, sometimes the promise of fantasy can bring greater joy than the realization of reality. Maybe the game will be a flop, my money will be wasted, and all my time and energy was invested for nothing. That's a definite possibility. But the excitement and almost juvenile sense of wonder that I get is worth the risk, and many people seem to agree with the (to the tune of over $70 million). That can be hard to find these days, and that feeling - that sense of uncertainty and possibility and potential - just may be worth it.
Eh, that's not really point I'm trying to get at here. My disdain for Star Citizen isn't an issue with needing Instant Gratification. I pledged for the Cutlass before it was ever added to the hangar. I know the temptation. My disdain for the product comes from everything they've done with it since I put that money towards it.

I invested because it seemed like an amazing concept with some very cool features, and I wanted to give. What I have received from them so far since then (That was a little over a year ago, before Arena Commander dropped, and about 6 months before alpha packages ran dry) has been nothing but a disappointment. From very poor combat mechanics to buggy trailers for the first person shooter module - on an engine designed around an FPS, I am not happy with what I'm seeing, and what I've gotten.

I'm still looking forward to walking around my ships cruising through the galaxy, dicking around with friends. Don't get me wrong. But the hype has beyond worn off. I'm seeing the product for what it is, or more specifically, is becoming, and I am honestly disappointed in myself for investing so much. After all, as I said earlier in this thread: Star Citizen promises a lot, but Elite: Dangerous has actually delivered.

1.1 Update for Elite Dangerous will be adding empire expansion, allowing players to help determine how human space expands across the 100 billion system galaxy Elite: Dangerous offers, in 1:1 scale. It will also have improved options for exploration.
1.2 Will add improved co-op combat mechanics, including wingmen.

Personally, what I'm most excited for in Elite Dangerous is the serverside release of the Thargoids, which will happen at random, according to devs.
Elite: Dangerous came out of the gate running nearly perfect. Something so few games do these days. It was tested extensively, and yes, I know comparing a finished product to one still in pre-alpha is foolish, but HOLY CRAP man, Star Citizen's development started BEFORE Elite: Dangerous.

I also need to look into a title called No-Man's Sky that I keep getting recommended.

EDIT: Just looked up No Man's Sky. Scott Manley did a video on this, and I am excited for it, though it's not as graphically captivating as other games.
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Re: Star Citizen

#28 Post by Ryusen »

New ship! The Rugged Colossus: Orion Mining Platorm!

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The RSI Orion is mankind’s premiere spatial mining platform, featuring multiple independent mining drones, an onboard refinery and a system of saddlebag-class storage units.

For advanced mining operations, the RSI Orion is second to none. The Orion carries a crew of up to six, responsible for flight operations, engineering and manning both turrets and pre-installed drone interfaces.

Onboard accommodations, while industrial in style, support all crew for extended duration mining runs. A genuine complete mining solution, a single Orion can locate, identify and extract lucrative ores, or it can be paired with explorers and transports to form the centerpiece of a larger-scale mining operation! Get to the core of the matter with the all-new RSI Orion.
Watch it in action: https://vimeo.com/120215155?from=outro-embed

What is mining?: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm ... ers-Mining

The Orion is the first true, dedicated mining operation we've seen so far. With a length of 170m, that also makes it one of the longest, losing only to Capitol ships and the like. It will hold a crew of 6, and support a massive 16,228 units of ore in its saddlebags. Which rotate. Rotate! The ship was designed by George Hull, who also led design on the wonderfully made Reclaimer.

This ship looks like it will find its home in a larger organization, who will be able to fully man not just the Orion itself, but also exploration vessels to locate ore, as well as transport ships to find lucrative markets. Your average player needn't pledge nor work towards this ship (unless you simply wish to support the developers, that is), but anyone who finds themselves with a large number of cooperative friends and a large fleet of ships should absolutely consider adding an Orion to their arsenal.
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Re: Star Citizen

#29 Post by Ryusen »

With the release of Star Citizen 1.1, there's a lot of information to cover. Instead of spamming the thread with all of it, just visit the link, and I'll pull out some of the more interesting parts down below.

SHIPS

The Aegis Retaliator, a long-range bomber, is back in the pledge store temporarily. It is now hangar ready, but is not slated for Arena Commander until AC 2.0 launches (along with the other multi-crew ships).

The Gladius is now both hangar ready and combat ready! It is a small, agile craft that is designed specifically for dogfighting. It should sit slightly above the Mustang Delta in terms of combat, but balancing could change things up significantly.

The next ship for concept sale will be the Vanguard (previously called the Bulldog). It will go on sale hopefully next week. It will be a deep-space fighter, meant to rival the F7C-M Super Hornet. While not as weapons-focused as the hornet, it will boast incredible durability, expanded fuel tanks, and a heap of other goodies.

Following the Vanguard, the next concept sale will be the Hull series, a number of transport ships. The Hull A will be the smallest of the ships, with the Hull B being larger than that, the Hull C being larger than the B, etc. Players will be able to pledge for the Hulls A-C, though the Hull D and Hull E are announced to be in the game owned by NPCs. There is not a lot of information out about the series yet, but there are a few things we know; first, they will be distinct ships, not plug-and-go variants. They will have increasing cargo capacity, with the Hull A being a "moving truck", the Hull B being an 18-wheeler, etc. We do not have pricing or images yet, but the man designing the series, Jim Martin, also designed the Freelancer and the Defiant from DS9. While I'm not a fan of his ships aesthetically, it will be nice to have some top-tier traders out there.


USER INTERFACE

The Rental Credits System, or REC, is a way for players to fly and test various ships within the game without needed to actually pledge for them. Until now, you either had to wait for a free-fly weekend to play a ship or purchase it yourself. Weapons had to be purchased. A lot of money was spent by many players to generate the top-tier loadouts, much to the chagrin of lesser-funded players. With the REC system, you will earn these rental credits simply by playing Arena Commander. These credits can then be used to rent various ships, weapons, shields, etc. from the Voyager Direct store for a number of days. This allows players to freely test other ships and weapon loadouts and break past the paywall that existed previously. This is a major step forward, as it allows players the ability to fly most of the in-game ships and test most of the loadouts without having to spend anything other than their time. While this is beneficial to the playerbase, this is more just a tool that CIG can use to encourage players to test various weapons and ships to help with balancing. (pre-alpha, remember?). Here's a REC FAQ.

Second, weapons hardpoints have been reworked. Read me for an in depth look. Basically, mouse users enjoyed an advantage over HOTAS users while using gimballed weapons (weapons that are able to rotate and aim independantly of the ship). This led to a situation where gimballed weapons were never a bad choice, and would always be picked over their fixed mount brethren. There is now a sort of "point system" when talking about hardpoints. Various weapon sizes and upgrades will take a set number of points to use. For instance, a size 4 fixed gun will take 4 points, and may be mounted on a size 4 hardpoint. But adding a gimbal will take one point, meaning you may use a size 3 weapon + 1 point gimbal to the size 4 hardpoint (3 + 1 = 4). Or, you may add two size 2 weapons and a gimbal to a size 5 weapon mount (2 + 2 + 1 = 5), or you can add a size 3 weapon, a gimbal, and a manned turret slot for players to a size 5 weapon mount...you get the idea. Read the link for more information. This will help balance the disparity between mouse and HOTAS users by making choices such a gimballed weapons, manned turrets, and automatically aimed turrets actually matter to the pilot and the situation.

While in free flight, you now have the ability to use the Landing System to either manually land, or request permission and automatically land.

MISC

CIG is hard at work on the FPS module, to be called Star Marine. This should hopefully launch in the next couple of weeks. After Star Marine launches, they will try to put out the Planetside/Social module sometime this Spring.

Finally, CIG is still in the process of upgrading the CyrEngine to a 64-bit architecture. While we will not immediately see the benefits, this system should allow them much greater flexibility in their behind-the-scenes work.
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Re: Star Citizen

#30 Post by Envy661 »

Ryusen wrote: Second, weapons hardpoints have been reworked. Read me for an in depth look. Basically, mouse users enjoyed an advantage over HOTAS users while using gimballed weapons (weapons that are able to rotate and aim independantly of the ship). This led to a situation where gimballed weapons were never a bad choice, and would always be picked over their fixed mount brethren. There is now a sort of "point system" when talking about hardpoints. Various weapon sizes and upgrades will take a set number of points to use. For instance, a size 4 fixed gun will take 4 points, and may be mounted on a size 4 hardpoint. But adding a gimbal will take one point, meaning you may use a size 3 weapon + 1 point gimbal to the size 4 hardpoint (3 + 1 = 4). Or, you may add two size 2 weapons and a gimbal to a size 5 weapon mount (2 + 2 + 1 = 5), or you can add a size 3 weapon, a gimbal, and a manned turret slot for players to a size 5 weapon mount...you get the idea. Read the link for more information. This will help balance the disparity between mouse and HOTAS users by making choices such a gimballed weapons, manned turrets, and automatically aimed turrets actually matter to the pilot and the situation.
But that doesn't fix the problem. It just tiptoes around it. It all comes down to the poor control players have over their ship in combat that is causing the problems. Even veteran HOTAS players can't properly play the game because of the flight model, which is a flaw in the fundamental design itself, and they're kind of just... ignoring it. Which is disappointing.

Personally, this isn't the update to get me back into the swing of things. Ultimately, I still have Elite Dangerous. Elite Dangerous gets a major update each month adding more content. Elite Dangerous also solved all the problems of normal space flight sims in a different and much more successful way than Star Citizen's route by simply diminishing YAW movement when turning (The problem lies in the omnidirectional movement model of a space flight sim, addressing the concerns of having ships simply orbit each other, always facing one another and shooting. Elite Dangerous, as said, did this simply by reducing YAW, which is reducing the speed of left to right rotational movement. Star Citizen is trying to resolve this problem by making it atmospheric jets, that fly like atmospheric jets, but in space, which in of itself is a flawed idea).

I don't really like talking bad about Star Citizen, since I invested about $120 into it, but I gotta say, it has been fairly disappointing lately, and that really just kind of bums me out more than anything else. I upgraded my Aurora LN to a Mustang Beta a few weeks ago only to find the Mustang Beta model was duplicated and glitched into the floor, along with all the interactable components not properly functioning. I mean, bugs are to be expected since it's still pre-alpha, but I've played significantly more polished pre-alpha games than this at a much earlier cycle. I'm finding it hard to excuse.

Meanwhile, Elite Dangerous is everything I wanted Star Citizen to be, minus the ability to leave your ship, which will be added in December this year, or December 2016, with proper Atmospheric entry to planets being the alternate.

Also, wasn't the release date for Star Citizen supposed to be this year? I don't see that happening.
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