DRM and Piracy: Discussion

[Kinuki]

So, since there's been some discussion about piracy and DRM lately, I thought I'd make a more central topic for it. So, what are your thoughts? Is piracy right, wrong, neither? Is DRM good, bad...?

Personally, I'm against DRM. I think it often doesn't do the job it's supposed to while making things harder for the user. It ends up encouraging piracy. And I definitely think piracy is killing the PC and PSP.

[Luca Fox]

DRM only hurts the people who obey the law. They say they're losing money every time someone downloads some song or movie or whatever, but the fact is they're not losing anything because the person wouldn't have paid for the item anyways.

[Kinuki]

But how can that possibly be true? That every pirate would not have otherwise bought it? I'm hard-pressed to believe that. Besides, I don't think it's a coincidence that many PC studios have begun developing solely for consoles, where piracy happens on a much, much smaller scale. After all, why would you want to develop for a console where tens of thousands of, or maybe even more, people steal what you release? Because it is stealing. Whether its bits or a physical item, you have not compensated the creator for their work. I mean, how would you feel if something you've worked four years on is taken, without any compensation, and your job is put in jeopardy because you're not making enough money?

And of course, that logic many pirates use is still true for any item: Because I would not have bought [that TV], I can take it. After all, they're not losing any money since I wouldn't have bought it anyway.

[Luca Fox]

No, if you take a TV it can't be sold to someone else. Your logic is broken.

I know that people pirate stuff all the time. If I worked four years on a project I wouldn't expect everyone to pay for it.

And how about this? What about people who let their friends borrow their CDs or video game or whatever? That's technically stealing it because those people didn't pay for the right to listen to the music on the CD.

[Lithas]

No, if you take a TV it can't be sold to someone else. Your logic is broken.

I know that people pirate stuff all the time. If I worked four years on a project I wouldn't expect everyone to pay for it.

And how about this? What about people who let their friends borrow their CDs or video game or whatever? That's technically stealing it because those people didn't pay for the right to listen to the music on the CD.

True, and when you 'buy' a CD/game/any form of media you /are/ only paying for the right to use it.

[Kinuki]

No, if you take a TV it can't be sold to someone else. Your logic is broken.

You have a point, but still, you're not paying for what you take. If they wouldn't otherwise buy it, fine, but that doesn't mean it's not theft to then pirate it, it just means they haven't enticed you enough to buy it. Their lack of an ability to convince you to buy something doesn't mean you can then simply take it anyway. And I remain unconvinced all the pirates of all of the larger games, would pirating not be a viable option, have simply not bought them. If they care enough to pirate, then a percentage would care enough to buy -- but it's cheaper and easier to just download it illegally for free.

And how about this? What about people who let their friends borrow their CDs or video game or whatever? That's technically stealing it because those people didn't pay for the right to listen to the music on the CD.

Actually, the law is pretty clear that we have the right to resell property that we legally buy, to whomever we wish. In this case, while you may technically be correct, it'd just be argued in court you "sold" it to each other for nothing, most likely.

[FastChapter]

<< I think piracy is good so long as I'm able to convince myself that I'm not stealing that much music...

(_ _ ) Gawd I'm such a hypocrite.

[Ryusen]

They say they're losing money every time someone downloads some song or movie or whatever, but the fact is they're not losing anything because the person wouldn't have paid for the item anyways.

I beg to disagree. The other week I was looking for a certain CD by Natalie Cole. I couldn't find a "copy" of it online, and was about to buy it off iTunes. A friend interceded and let me borrow his CD, but that's beside the point. If I could have pirated it, I would have. If I couldn't pirate it, I would have bought it. To say that anyone who pirates a CD wouldn't have bought it is going, I believe, too far. I could see "most people", but certainly not all.

EDIT:

Come to think of it, I bought a couple CD's last year. Couldn't find the torrents for the life of me.

[Lithas]

Actually, the law is pretty clear that we have the right to resell property that we legally buy, to whomever we wish. In this case, while you may technically be correct, it'd just be argued in court you "sold" it to each other for nothing, most likely.

Well, there are certain restrictions on what constitutes 'selling' something. I'm just to lazy to look them up. At any rate, any litigator worth his bar exam could argue that down. (I.E. The terms of a 'sale' imply that it is a permanent transfer of ownership.)

[Luca Fox]

And what if you have the music on your computer before you 'sell' the item to your friend? Is that somehow not pirating then?

[Lithas]

Sorry, no easy answer on that one. 'It depends' is as close as I can get.

Here's the basics as I know them:
No music that we normally buy can be used in any public area, or at a public function, or at a private function involving an exchange of money.
You buy the rights for you to place the music on X number of devices that you own with most CDs. X being set by the producer of the music.

I think, emphasis on think, that in order to sell a CD you would need to remove all traces/copies of it, leaving it at it's initial value.

[GodsNightmare21]

Wow, actually listened to me. I feel somewhat more important!

Anyway, I think pirating games is more of an issue than pirating music. Sure if I like a band i'll buy a CD, but thats rare for me to do. Pirating games I don't do too often. As for DRM, I don't even know what that is. I'll have too expand my knowledge about it.

[Luca Fox]

It's some [censored] made up by Disney to keep people from sharing their movies.

I acquire very few games I don't already own as ROMs. Mostly ones that have been discontinued.

[specter]

First off, this conversation will go a lot smoother if we're all on the same page: Piracy is a crime. Is it necessary? Have you seen the economy? Not very friendly to buying things right now. I'm not a fan of people who try to justify their piracy and say it's not a crime. As of now, digital information is still treated as if it were physical. If someone were to make a 100%, true to the end copy of a diamond, would people think the same thing about it? Perhaps. Thing is, music, games, movies, or whatever are pretty much free game as soon as they're in the data stream.
What about things on the internet? Should people pay to look at a website? Would you like to pay every time you came to 2Kinds, or every time you copy/pasted another person's post? Because that's their post, and you didn't pay to use it for you own use.
My point is that the majority needs to properly evaluate what stealing is in regards to the internet. Until then, this argument won't really go anywhere

Prime example of DRM scaring someone from actually buying it: Spore.
I love the game (I have a civ on a friends computer), but with all the upgrading I'm doing to my computer, there's no way I can go with that.
Dear Bittorrent...
--------------------------------
As for actual CDs, I buy them when I love the band. I only plan on buying 3 CD's this year:
Let the Dominoes Fall
21st Century Breakdown
The People or the Gun

Anything else, patch record all the way.

[Kinuki]

Actually, the law is pretty clear that we have the right to resell property that we legally buy, to whomever we wish. In this case, while you may technically be correct, it'd just be argued in court you "sold" it to each other for nothing, most likely.

Well, there are certain restrictions on what constitutes 'selling' something. I'm just to lazy to look them up. At any rate, any litigator worth his bar exam could argue that down. (I.E. The terms of a 'sale' imply that it is a permanent transfer of ownership.)

I'd like to see where in the law it specifies that, as otherwise, I remain highly doubtful. I mean no offense, but it seems unlikely the government would have the ability to dictate that any item can only be sold once. If that were true, then people who have (note: legal) garage sales or second-hand shops would not be allowed to do business. And yet, Gamestop is a thriving, multi-billion dollar business, who earns much of their money from buying games from customers and reselling them to another customer -- if the initial sale of the game from store to customer (say, buying it from Best Buy) were supposed to be "permanent," then how would Gamestop be able to buy the game from the customer, let alone resell it themselves?

And what if you have the music on your computer before you 'sell' the item to your friend? Is that somehow not pirating then?

That's a very good question, and one I'll freely admit I don't know the answer to. Legally, my guess is it probably is piracy/stealing/etc.