DRM and Piracy: Discussion

[Kinuki]

Sorry if I made it seem like I think piracy is justified. It can, and in many cases, has ruined companies. In fact, I recall hearing that Crytek was most likely not going to make Crysis 2 because Crysis 1 was pirated so much. What I was trying to get across is that I feel less guilty if the company doesn't care about the customers' opinion on the way they make the game.

Yeah, many former PC-only companies have begun shifting their attention to consoles because piracy is a much less widespread problem (PSP and DS excepted.)

That's the definition of stealing.

Stealing: to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.

Piracy: the unauthorized reproduction or use of a copyrighted book, recording, television program, patented invention, trademarked product, etc.

While stealing gives something to you, while the victim loses it, piracy just grants you something, while the victim does not lose something, only is denied of payment.

That's semantics though, to try and make a division between "losing something" and "being denied money." And by the definition you post for stealing, piracy fits under it. You're taking the property of another (the code is property of the company), without permission, and denying them compensation. To me, that would be theft.

[FlaminPheonix]

piracy isn't stealing

its copyright infringement
which makes it messy
copyright law makes everything messy
the adverts before films used to say Piracy is stealing
now they say piracy is a crime

i admit i have pirated a few things mainly games

but i can honestly say that i have only pirated games for which i could not find a demo or trial

and if i like them and actually spend some time playing them

i have always bought them

but thats still only about 6 games that i have played a bit off without paying

[Lithas]

I agree with Pheonix. I treat Pirated things like a trial. I like it, I buy it. If not, I don't.

In general I'm a very thrifty spender, I only buy things I know I'll like. Therefor, if a game looks only so-so, I get a trail version. If no trial version is available and it still intrigues me, I pirate a copy. If neither is available, I don't think of the game again. If, in the case of the trial of pirated version, I like it, I buy a copy. It's rather simple, really. I follow the same principles as I do with a library. I check out a book. If I like the book, I buy it, if not I return it and never think of it again.

[Aeolus1212]

The thing is, that's only justifying it to yourself. It doesn't make the act any less 'wrong'.

The old trial argument isn't a reason to do it. It's a reason to do it anyway.

[Lithas]

The thing is, that's only justifying it to yourself. It doesn't make the act any less 'wrong'.

The old trial argument isn't a reason to do it. It's a reason to do it anyway.

Whatever, I didn't know it was used in trial (sweet!) but it's good enough for me!

[Kinuki]

piracy isn't stealing

its copyright infringement

Huh. I hadn't thought of it that way, but that does make sense -- it's duplicating someone's work without credit, consent, or compensation. It makes sense.

In general I'm a very thrifty spender, I only buy things I know I'll like. Therefor, if a game looks only so-so, I get a trail version. If no trial version is available and it still intrigues me, I pirate a copy.

What about renting it? Or borrowing a copy from a friend? There are several legal avenues with which you could try (most) products without having to resort to piracy.

The thing is, that's only justifying it to yourself. It doesn't make the act any less 'wrong'.

That sums up my feelings pretty succinctly.

[Lithas]

In general I'm a very thrifty spender, I only buy things I know I'll like. Therefor, if a game looks only so-so, I get a trail version. If no trial version is available and it still intrigues me, I pirate a copy.

What about renting it? Or borrowing a copy from a friend? There are several legal avenues with which you could try (most) products without having to resort to piracy.

Renting=expensive. I can't play a game for less than 5 days and know if I'll like it, and by that time I'm paying about 10% of the cost already.

As for borrowing the game, I do, when possible. It's just that a lot of the time my friends don't have the game either.

[Kinuki]

Renting=expensive. I can't play a game for less than 5 days and know if I'll like it, and by that time I'm paying about 10% of the cost already.

But you just said earlier that you use a trial or demo of a game to decide to purchase it or not (and only pirate when said demo is unavailable), and a demo is much shorter than the five days you'd have by renting it. So the demo lets you make up your mind in a shorter amount of time than renting? How does that work?

[Lithas]

Renting=expensive. I can't play a game for less than 5 days and know if I'll like it, and by that time I'm paying about 10% of the cost already.

But you just said earlier that you use a trial or demo of a game to decide to purchase it or not (and only pirate when said demo is unavailable), and a demo is much shorter than the five days you'd have by renting it. So the demo lets you make up your mind in a shorter amount of time than renting? How does that work?

Most demos offer a taste of everything a game has to offer. You get a chance to play around with strategies, weapons, combos etc... while getting a tease of the storyline. I could easily play demos for weeks at a time. Also, if I demo a game and immediately don't like it, I haven't wasted any money by locking in a 5-day rental when I can delete it from my computer immediately, and for no charge.

[supervanman64]

Stealing: to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.

Piracy: the unauthorized reproduction or use of a copyrighted book, recording, television program, patented invention, trademarked product, etc.

While stealing gives something to you, while the victim loses it, piracy just grants you something, while the victim does not lose something, only is denied of payment.

Wouldn't denying someone the payment of the'r property BE stealing? That's the way I see it. Because the victim of piracy is losing money, which therefore makes it theft, right?

[The Jasenator]

Not meaning to break your conversation here but I think that the reason piracy isn't taken seriously by people (Well a majority of people) is that there are no real deterrents to make people stop.

Sure the companies or whatever can sue you, but how much can they get out of you? It'll cost more to sue you than what they'll get out of you it's not worth it and they don't want to look like the bad guys, who wants to buy the bad guys products? No one.

The best they can do is take on the pirate websites, eg Pirate Bay. But with the ever expanding internet when you take one down ten more will jump up to fill the gap.

But apparently not all piracy is bad piracy.

Traian Băsescu, the president of Romania, stated that "piracy helped the young generation discover computers. It set off the development of the IT industry in Romania."[8]

Microsoft admits that piracy of its Windows operating system has helped give it huge market share (90%) in China that will boost its revenues when these users "go legit." Bill Gates said, "It's easier for our software to compete with Linux when there's piracy than when there's not."

Full thing here

As for DRM tech, I believe it's pointless the creators will have to constantly pump out newer and better technologies to keep up with all the people out there avoiding/reverse engineering it.

But thats my poorly written and researched opinion.

[Kinuki]

Most demos offer a taste of everything a game has to offer. You get a chance to play around with strategies, weapons, combos etc... while getting a tease of the storyline. I could easily play demos for weeks at a time. Also, if I demo a game and immediately don't like it, I haven't wasted any money by locking in a 5-day rental when I can delete it from my computer immediately, and for no charge.

Exactly. So if a demo offers all of that, and allows you to make up your mind, why did you say that you couldn't decide if you liked the game if you played the actual game for a full five days? A demo is just a slice of that same game. It just seems like you're contradicting your own justification for pirating something.

And yes, while you might be out money, that doesn't mean you can then pirate whatever you like. It doesn't make it right because it's out of your price range. I'm a very thrifty person and I try to make my money stretch so I only buy games I like. And I manage to do a pretty good job without having to pirate. I have a sizable game collection and it keeps growing. *shrugs* I'm unconvinced that there's ever a time where piracy couldn't be substituted with something more legal.

[Lithas]

If you don't want to pirate something, don't do it. I'm not against people /not/ pirating things. I'm just saying that I do what I feel is the most effective form of action. I'm not costing anyone anything. There is no loss of profit the way I pirate things. As I've stated earlier, the only thing that comes out of this is I buy more games. If I'm not sure I'll like something, I don't buy it. Pirating let's me know if I will or won't like it. I wouldn't end up purchasing 10% of the games I own if I didn't try them out pirated first. It's rather simple.

[Yiazmat858]

I do pirate stuff but only when I had already bought the game, and than it breaks either through a bad disk since i change operating systems like once a month or loss of the disk. and I dont think you could take piratebay down.

[Kilroywuzheere]

I'm going to skip reading most of the thread to voice some of my opinions about his stuff.

DRMs suck, and most everyone thinks so. However, I know quite well why they're placed in games, its all that developers have that can "actually" protect them. If you put a game out with no protection, technically an infinite number of people can play it if one person buys a copy. And its very easy for developers to go belly up if a game doesn't sell well enough, so its very understandable when they put DRMs on them. It takes a lot of copies sold to break even. I'm talking about half a million for games nowadays, depending on how high end they are.

As for trying to deny publishers money: They ain't going belly up anytime soon. All they do is give money to developers so that they can afford to make a game. Well, give isn't quite the right term, loan would fit MUCH better. Heck, a fun example: The Unreal engine costs half a million to RENT for a YEAR. Its somewhere around 4-5 million to just right out buy. Of course, that's the high end of it, but you're getting my point.

And an interesting conundrum about DRMs: A game developer announced that they would not be putting DRMs on their game and it actually sold well enough for the developers to turn a profit, a rare feat seeing how much it costs to pay back those loans. So, not putting DRMs on the game actually discouraged piracy, seeing as no one had to worry about "losing" the game. I've forgotten the name of this game, its been a year or so since I received this information.

I've put in my two bits, if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, yadda yadda yadda.