Last Man Posting

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Neutral Smith
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13666 Post by Neutral Smith »

:shock:
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13667 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 1:37 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 12:49 am And despite being cheaper for the end-user i think they do not offer as much value as more traditional form of learning.
On top of that most of schools have been force online due to the current lockdown, I do not take classes myself anymore but every student I know says that they are completely worthless. As professors do not know how to use online platforms and only leave homework and reading assignments.
As far as value is concerned, it's a coin flip. No physical classrooms means no direct interaction, but also no major real estate overhead, whereas brick and mortar means commuting one way or another, and an opportunity for face to face communication with instructors and students alike..

That said, either platform requires people to know how to teach with it. When I was in college, there was a stigma that classes were meaningless. If you want to learn, spend your life savings on books and a room for 4 years and teach yourself, because your instructors literally couldn't care less. College, by the words of many who graduated, "is for parties and drinking, because nobody teaches you anything else". In that sense, online is far better.

But on the other hand, online learning severely limits the learning experience, as well as socialization. Physical schools have a much greater capacity for that, it's just that nobody gives a damn about it.
Unless you go to the top universities in the world quality is, unfortunately, very variable, even inside the same university. A problem with a lot of higher education is that professor sometimes teach on the side, specially at big colleges, their main job is research and they only give lectures because it is university policy. On the other hand online courses are only for teaching. Moreover once you get the instructor to record the course he can happily return to his research, and only provide minimal input on the course. Or you know, you can fire them after that...
In my 7 years of college i did meet a lot of people that spent all their time drunk and partying. But not all. Some people did cared to learn something a took classes did their homework and studied hard. Either because they knew they could not pass the test otherwise or they knew they would eventually need to use some of that knowledge. And you know, some people were actually interested in what the degree they were pursuing.
Lectures and traditional teaching do get a bad reputation. Since you are graded for your performance thinking that classes are useless or pointless might make you feel better than thinking you are simply not doing great at school.
And you are absolutely correct learning in a social environment is better than in isolation.
AnApocalypticLime wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 2:14 am I don't think it would be like that. You would go to a physical school, but take classes based on your placement test and instead of having teachers hand out specific tests to specific students and kill a ton of time. They can just let the computer do the work. the staff would just make sure kids are paying attention, help them with anything the videos failed to teach them, and just being there for emergencies. One of the major flaws though is that government indoctrination could be a lot easier with this. not saying that will happen, but all governments of all nations are very uncertain and It could happen.
There has been some research that point that online-electronic based learning actually had a negative effect on students specially those on elementary education.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13668 Post by Bellhead »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 7:52 pm
AnApocalypticLime wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 2:14 am I don't think it would be like that. You would go to a physical school, but take classes based on your placement test and instead of having teachers hand out specific tests to specific students and kill a ton of time. They can just let the computer do the work. the staff would just make sure kids are paying attention, help them with anything the videos failed to teach them, and just being there for emergencies. One of the major flaws though is that government indoctrination could be a lot easier with this. not saying that will happen, but all governments of all nations are very uncertain and It could happen.
There has been some research that point that online-electronic based learning actually had a negative effect on students specially those on elementary education.
Oh very much so. Early years are absolutely crucial to development. I still remember most of my days in preschool. It's an important time, where growth is heavily influenced by environment, but if that environment is a computer screen, there's a LOT that can go wrong, and not just from the physical perspective.

I went almost 13 years without a cell phone, and I got a flip phone at that, but I knew kids who couldn't leave their screen for more than a few minutes at a time. I was just raised in an environment where people mattered more than devices. The thought of that world being normal frightens me to this day, and the entire system is moving in exactly that direction.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13669 Post by AnApocalypticLime »

I already just assumed elementary/preschool wasn't involved

and only the learning is affected by technology, you still have recess, people around you, and awkward situations.
Wow these things are way harder to come up with than you'd think. Or is that just me?

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Re: Last Man Posting

#13670 Post by Bellhead »

AnApocalypticLime wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 9:12 pm I already just assumed elementary/preschool wasn't involved

and only the learning is affected by technology, you still have recess, people around you, and awkward situations.
Not if you still have the ability to bury yourself in a computer. It's a fair point, though.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13671 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 8:07 pm
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 7:52 pm
AnApocalypticLime wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 2:14 am I don't think it would be like that. You would go to a physical school, but take classes based on your placement test and instead of having teachers hand out specific tests to specific students and kill a ton of time. They can just let the computer do the work. the staff would just make sure kids are paying attention, help them with anything the videos failed to teach them, and just being there for emergencies. One of the major flaws though is that government indoctrination could be a lot easier with this. not saying that will happen, but all governments of all nations are very uncertain and It could happen.
There has been some research that point that online-electronic based learning actually had a negative effect on students specially those on elementary education.
Oh very much so. Early years are absolutely crucial to development. I still remember most of my days in preschool. It's an important time, where growth is heavily influenced by environment, but if that environment is a computer screen, there's a LOT that can go wrong, and not just from the physical perspective.

I went almost 13 years without a cell phone, and I got a flip phone at that, but I knew kids who couldn't leave their screen for more than a few minutes at a time. I was just raised in an environment where people mattered more than devices. The thought of that world being normal frightens me to this day, and the entire system is moving in exactly that direction.
I have a very limited set of memories from preschool. But I agree it was definitely formative.
In any case it also worries me the amount of time kids spend on their phones this days*. I, too, got my first phone when I as 13, a motorola t720. And even then some of my classmates spend a significant part of their day playing on their phone, surprising considering you could hardly do anything on those things.
Nowadays all kids have phones with more processing power and stuff to do on them than they know what to do with. And the fact that they spend too much on the phone is not necessarily their or their parents fault. Even us adult probably spend more time in a screen than we should. But that is by design, most content is meant to be eye-catching and interesting, to retain your attention.
What worries me the most is that people seem is normalizing spending their whole lives in their phones.

*Most effective phrase at making you feel old
AnApocalypticLime wrote: Sat May 02, 2020 9:12 pm I already just assumed elementary/preschool wasn't involved

and only the learning is affected by technology, you still have recess, people around you, and awkward situations.
The amount of students on elementary/basic school has always been the highest so there has always been a pressure to "do more teaching with less" hence electronic learning.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13672 Post by Bellhead »

I'll also add that the system in general has deteriorated significantly in the last several decades, at least in the US. From what I've heard, Japan based their school system on ours, but they surpass us in almost every way (Foggy old memory, likely some degree of wrong). Seems to me, that the whole system either needs a revamp or an overhaul, because it's based on concepts that don't really apply here anymore.

Basically, learning is only done by people who want to learn, and we have a system that tries to force learning on people, then blames the teachers, fires them, and wonders why the new ones do worse. It's as much their fault for relying on the system as it is the students' for demonizing it, and by extension, their parents for the lifestyle they've taught which shows no care for education or community.

Feel free to dispute any or all of this, it's 11 and I'm tired.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13673 Post by Kellard »

Hmm... Mmmmmm...
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13674 Post by Bellhead »

Enjoying some delicious food, eh?
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13675 Post by Kellard »

Pardon me, I was absorbed in thought
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13676 Post by Tesla Foxtrot »

You are pardoned
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13677 Post by Neutral Smith »

Great minds think alike, and a dirty mind is a joy forever.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13678 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 2:42 am I'll also add that the system in general has deteriorated significantly in the last several decades, at least in the US. From what I've heard, Japan based their school system on ours, but they surpass us in almost every way (Foggy old memory, likely some degree of wrong). Seems to me, that the whole system either needs a revamp or an overhaul, because it's based on concepts that don't really apply here anymore.

Basically, learning is only done by people who want to learn, and we have a system that tries to force learning on people, then blames the teachers, fires them, and wonders why the new ones do worse. It's as much their fault for relying on the system as it is the students' for demonizing it, and by extension, their parents for the lifestyle they've taught which shows no care for education or community.

Feel free to dispute any or all of this, it's 11 and I'm tired.
Oh I totally agree, the fact that the system has sort of worked for the past hundred years does not mean that some change unnecessary. For example, as we have been discussion, we have yet to figure out an effective way to use electronic devices for teaching. It might be that simply the school system does not scale to millions of students all those stories of modern teaching methods and school come from countries like sweden, netherlands and the like with very small population where it is feasible to assign a couple teachers per dozen students. However in the US or any country with a significant population that is materially impossible. Regarding japan school system, I actually have no idea how school works over there, in fact I have had a very hard time understanding foreign school systems, so no comment on that.

I have to agree with your second point too. People who are interested in learning will learn by themselves and those who are not. Well you can shove knowledge in them but it is not gonna stick nor make them interested. But then how do you teach people stuff they do need to know regardless if they care or not? Like arithmetics, reading, writing, teamwork etc? Hell how do you even figure out what knowledge is important enough to warrant teaching it to everybody?
Neutral Smith wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 2:52 pm Great minds think alike, and a dirty mind is a joy forever.
A dirty mind is fun and all that but it is sometimes annoying and inconvenient in certain situations, for example job meetings.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13679 Post by Bellhead »

On the subject of teaching...
Two teachers per dozen students would be quite adequate, for lack of a better turn of phrase. That said, having less teachers isn't necessarily the issue. Keep in mind that even a country with a relatively small population would still have a ratio of student to teacher, which CAN be scaled up as a percentage of general population, so the issue lies not in people to do the job, but in the system's ability to bring people into it. Teachers around here make three cents less than dirt for shaping youths' minds and futures, so if that's the path you want, you're severely limited financially, to the point you might have to change careers just to survive.

On the subject of electronics...
While they can be useful, I feel their best contributions are visual aids, virtual assistance, and sharing of information. Teaching is not something for electronics to be doing.

Additionally...
The point about only learning when you want to was stolen from Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance.
Spoiler! length, book's story and off-topic
In the story, the character Phaedrus came up with the idea of a college without grades or scores of any kind until after the finals were taken and done. The idea behind this was that anyone who wanted to learn would stay, and anyone who didn't would leave, get a job, figure out what they wanted to do with their lives, then come back with renewed purpose.Those focused on grades would have to focus on their work, else lose their mind. On the other hand, people who usually failed and gave up because of bad grades would instead focus on the material itself instead, and would actually learn it. In practice, it worked, quite well, for the semester he did it. When he had his students evaluate the system, he found some interesting things.

Those who got good grades before, got mediocre or bad grades, and hated the system.
The middle of the class had mixed results, but placed fairly well.
The ones who usually failed, did well, and rated the system highly.

Phaedrus surmised that the over-achievers got recognition or gratification, or satisfaction or something by getting good grades, and didn't know how to react without them, while those that typically failed were no longer off-put by such low scores, allowing them to apply themselves without fear of being chastised for it.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#13680 Post by Kellard »

:reni:
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