Last Man Posting

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Tornir
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Re: Last Man Posting

#14866 Post by Tornir »

Hacking out planned obsolescence can be fun.
I have a DVD player/recorder that died after two years use. Turned out to be a common problem, and all units would die 6-12 months outside the warranty.
It was due to the pathetically small heatsink on the PSU's voltage regulator letting the component cook itself into an early death; just replacing it would give you another 18-24 months life.
Modifying the design so that the replacement VR resided on a larger heatsink by the case fan fixed the problem. That was twelve years ago, and it's still not dead.

Then there was the rotary lawnmower. Those things regularly burn out after 2-3 years, requiring a replacement motor, until spares are no longer available, then you require a replacement mower.
Putting several layers of old stocking toes over the motor created an effective air filter to keep grass clippings and other c**p out of the mechanism; replacing this filter every fall, and cleaning/re-greasing the bearings and gearing before putting it away for the winter kept it running for years. When it did finally fail, the service center flat-out refused to believe it had just died the day before, as that model had been discontinued fifteen years ago, and parts hadn't been available for at least ten.

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Re: Last Man Posting

#14867 Post by Bellhead »

Precisely this. Engineering used to be building the best you could with what you had, which meant your shortcomings were limited to either lack of knowledge or inadequacy of available materials. Vintage designs put a lot more effort into "make it work".

I wired my own trailer lighting system into my Jeep a while back, mentioned it here as well. Among the things I found while working on it, was that there are literally 4 wires in the entire vehicle that go further back than the gearbox. And every single wire, no matter what it's for, is a gauge thick enough to run every electrical load in the whole vehicle without burning out. I'm sure the engineers of the day knew full well what those wires were capable of handling, yet they went with a thicker gauge anyway, and as a result, that vehicle will never have wiring problems.

It's easy for engineering, management, R&D etc. to say, "We can save X on each one if we don't do Y", but what they don't say anymore is "If we do Y anyway, that part will never ever fail". My receiver hitch on that CJ, for instance, is a sheet of 7/16" steel plate, cut into a rough triangle shape, with a hole for the ball hitch in it. It's the thickest piece of metal in the vehicle, with the possible exception of the drivetrain housings. Does it need to be? No. But it's never EVER going to fail. Or bend. Or rot. Overkill is underrated.

And Technic, about that fan, I'll add in that back then, motor wire was thicker and had more shielding, due to manufacturing limitations. Such limitations meant that issues with overheating due to excessive use, or insulation cracking due to vibrations, were highly unlikely, and the coils themselves were far less likely to fail. If you have a capacity rating for a particular component far higher than necessary, failure is effectively prevented for it. In raising operational capacity for components to compensate for manufacturing shortcomings, they inadvertently built products that would almost never fail. Build it so it doesn't break, and lo' and behold, it never will.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#14868 Post by Technic[Bot] »

I cannot deny that modern mass market products has diminished quality in the recent years mostly due to corporate corner cutting and a general drive to reduce cost and maximize profits at all costs. And i think only a fool would deny that, but that it is not what i am trying to say.

You said: " Engineering used to be building the best you could with what you had" And it still is, but do not forget that you are limited to not only your knowledge, skills and available materials but you are also constrained by costs: Manufacturing, materials or otherwise. And the market, yes if you oversize a part enough you get to a point it will never break under normal operation, but nobody will buy not because they don't want long lasting stuff but because they cannot afford it.
Lets looks at the most oversized element of a normal house, the kitchen sink, that think is made out of stainless steel and given its nature it is likely the sink will outlast its owner and even the house. I think it is good that is is the case, but do you really need your sink to outlive you? Moreover this result in most kitchen sinks being very expensive, you end up paying for those extra features and reliability regardless of whether you actually need/use them. In my country it is not uncommon for people to do dishes on the same place they do the laundry as a kitchen sink is prohibitively expensive.
Now I do not usually like to poke holes in my argument but at the end of the day I think it is good that kitchen sinks are made of stainless steel. The reason these things last a lifetime is because they are very little reactive, which for something you wash your dishes and food in is a very important feature.

If you look at stuff not made for mass market, HV transformers and power electronics technology comes to mind, you quickly realize that more modern stuff is generally better regardless. That is because industrial and commercial clients spend a [censored] ton on money on stuff they expect to be safe, reliable for a good amount of time perhaps even decades, they also do not have unreasonable expectation of stuff living outside their design life, but I digress. In this case the incentive is backwards, customer has a lot of cash and prefer to make few high value purchases that will net them savings or profits over a long time, so engineers design accordingly, that is why i said most engineers are happier when working for companies that build stuff for other engineers they are less willing to compromise on design and quality and leave engineers more freedom when designing stuff.

Finally on the issue of the fan, is it a brushed motor?
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Re: Last Man Posting

#14869 Post by Bellhead »

I think that the purchase of a kitchen sink, as an example, is something that very few people would compromise on, given that it's almost completely stable, and won't react to hardly anything. However, it's also a metal, and due to design, has a slight amount of give which is capable of absorbing most moderate impacts without chipping, damage or leakage. However, even then, there are always multiple options available, even if you limit your choices to stainless. The sink can be mounted above or below the countertop, or inset, or molded into the counter, not to mention the size, shape, faucets, presence of a garbage disposal, etc. But, even considering all that, it's highly unlikely that anyone would choose a kitchen sink made of anything less than stainless when designing a kitchen.

If your options are to save 30-40% and get a product with a definite lifetime and possible wear and tear issues, or to spend the extra bit and know full well that it will never need to be replaced, I know what I would go for. Especially if that definite lifetime is within my lifetime. (Tangent) My uncle has a '68 Camaro. Used to have a few, back in the day. 350 c.i. V8 engine, cam-in-block. He had an issue with one early on, where the timing chain would jump a tooth, generally due to wear, abuse, or simple lack of a better chain. He decided to switch from a timing chain to timing gears, something only used on high performance race cars, because even though the quality of chains improved, he knew he would never have any issues with it. It was a guarantee that he would never have timing issues.

However, in an industrial setting, every component will need to be replaced eventually, so it's actually cheaper to get the best there is, because even though it will still need to be replaced, it will outlast the competition by so far that it no longer matters. My ex taught me about it... The idea is, if you purchase something with the intent for it to last, say, 10 years, then you can think of the cost of it as 1/10 the purchase price, every year for 10 years. After that time, you're saving money. Some accounting [censored] that I can't quite remember, but that's the gist of it.

As for the fan, given its size and age, I'd assume it's a brushless AC induction motor. DC motors of that era tend to be a little louder, and can produce sparks. They also catch fire more easily if the fan seizes; something about amperage causing more damage from DC current than AC. That part I'm not sure of, though... It has to have been over 10 years since I studied that.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#14870 Post by Technic[Bot] »

As I mentioned before it is not a perfect example as there are chemical considerations in the usage of your kitchen sink. But most are unaware of that and buy a kitchen sink made of stainless steel because they believe sinks are supposed to be made of stainless steel. As you may have expected I did not come up with that myself some other professor went on a half an hour rant against stainless steel sinks on machine design class.

Also you will always need to pay maintenance and repairs as even the most grossly over-designed piece of equipment will turn to dust if left outside without proper care. And sometimes more reliable and/or sound parts require more maintenance than simple stuff. Again by definition simple stuff tends to fail much less as there is less stuff to fail at.

DC fans and motors spark significantly more than the AC counter part no necessarily due to amperage but the moving nature of the brushes causes sparks. that also explain why it has lasted so long, AC motors are notoriously long live due to its construction simplicity (operation principle and design is not so simple) and most cheap DC motors will die if you as much look at is brushes funny.

It is called amortization, most industrial level stuff is not bought on cash as it is too expensive they are financed, this is also another reason they do not cut corners on them, they are so expensive than a couple hundred dollars is simply rounding error. And as you point out you spread out the price over its intended use. Hand an "Economic engineering" course in college, turns out real finance can be math heavy but most accountants do not do anything more complicated than excel...

Also sorry was not my intention to remind you of your ex...
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Re: Last Man Posting

#14871 Post by Hayate »

So many words for people who aren’t winning
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Re: Last Man Posting

#14872 Post by Neutral Smith »

Indeed.
If it moves but shouldn't: Duct tape. If it doesn't move but should: WD-40. With a hammer everything fits, and if it still doesn't fit: bigger hammer. If it can't be fixed with a hammer it's an electrical problem.

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Re: Last Man Posting

#14873 Post by Bellhead »

You didn't remind me of her, and I've been over her for a while. That's pretty much all there is to it, she's little more than a historical reference at this point, so don't feel too bad about it.

On the subject of industrial machinery, I cite the Bridgeport milling machine, which is essentially analog CNC. My uncle has one in his garage, which he still uses from time to time. Oddly enough, the building where my dad works has a shop in the back, and I got to tour it with him once: They have the exact same model of milling machine there. A whole row, too, and they still looked brand new. It's difficult to say for certain if such equipment is still used regularly, given the level of manual expertise by the younger generation, but the fact still stands that those machines have been in place for several decades. They also have a "break", I think it's called, which was installed in the '80s, and is still in regular use. Regular maintenance or not, 40 years of consistent regular use in insane for most equipment. It's not so much about the initial cost of the product so much as it relates to its expected lifespan, or rather, its practical lifespan.

And yeah, AC induction motors are pretty darn hard to kill. One moving part, and no contacts. But even those DC motors were pretty tough; I have a household drill dated 12-56 on my toolbox, and I use it with a wire wheel every time I do a brake job. Sure it needs to be oiled, but it's never stopped working. I know a guy in Maine that has one even older, and the trigger failed before the brushes gave out, so he fixed it with a rock. That was decades ago, and it's still working.

Text wall for the win.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#14874 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Sorry where I come from it is considered rude to remind someone of their exes accidentally nor otherwise hence i apologized.

Ah yes wish I could have a million machine 3d printers are cool and all but they cannot carry any load. Regardless both are extremely expensive.

Back in my college we had a machine tool* lab . And I got to use a manual mill. The thing was probably older than my professor but still worked. Yet it was not without effort. You could se more than one person was not careful enough and drilled a hole into the tray. Also chatting with the techs they told me that basically replace the gears and bands yearly. Motor was also not the original.
Lathe were similar story. They ran and did their job fine but one time the automatic mode of mine got stuck. I manage to turn it off before it blew the point . And again bands and gears were replaced often.
This was really abused equipment as it not only was used by students but also any researcher that needed to manufacture a part for something. The only reason they kept working is because a lot of time and money had been spend as new lathes are ridiculously expensive.

I also have a "cheap" drill which has not failed to this day. It is over 10 years old at this point. And I am pretty sure it is an universal motor. But yeah electric motors are cool

Also it is not about winning it is a about the friends and the walls of text we make along the way.



*Not sure if the correct term.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#14875 Post by Bellhead »

I know the feeling of "students use this". Back at trade school, we had that issue a LOT with some of the equipment, and sometimes it was up to the students to fix it, with whatever we could find at the time. That said, any drive belt will need to be replaced after its life is up, and if students are the most common user, you can be assured your equipment's life expectancy to plummet. Sometimes to less than 10%.

Also, by "machine tool lab", I'd assume you mean a machine workshop, or machine shop. That's what I'd call it, anyway. Or, depending on the situation, just the Shop. Vernacular tends to vary between regions, but if I say, "I'll be in the Shop", most people would know what I meant just by that. My father had Shop Class back in tech school, for instance, where they made wood and metal... projects, for lack of a better term.

Our text walls are shrinking. Must be a sign of the times.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#14876 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Yeah. The thing with most professional grade equipment is that it is used by well ... Professionals. Meaning they know how to properly use and take care of their equipment. They won't overload it nor take it out of its operating region. And even if they are not the brightest professional most of the time the owner is a company with well defined procedures to use such stuff. This minimizes wear and tear of such equipment.
Professional equipment has a much nicer life than mass market products. For a similar reason mechanics cars run better and longer than those of the general population.

Vernacular varies a lot specially when your cross borders and languages. Yes it is a machine shop for the engineering faculty both for teaching and to build stuff required for research. You could tell which equipment was used by students and which by technicians and engineers. I think one of those lathes even managed to kill a student once. Or at least that was the rumour

I you can't tell i was really fond of that lab spent many sleepless days on there. I once even considering taking a full lathe apprenticeship while on college but turns out most master machinist see it as a way to get someone to clean the place for free.

Also are we measuring the length on mobile or on desktop? Size of our walls of text varies a lot from platform to platform.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#14877 Post by Bellhead »

My desktop monitor stays at 1920x1080, so even a long paragraph is only 3-4 lines. On mobile, though, it can be well over the height of a page.

That said, and this was mentioned to me in Middle school, High school, college and trade school, most truly knowledgeable and skilled machinists are very old, comparatively speaking. As such, if you want an apprenticeship, you have to be very diligent, and be prepared to clean floors and to simple, boring jobs that nobody wants, for the first several years. All while paying very close attention to how the machines work, what techniques to use when, care and maintenance of tools and attachments.. Everything. It's a trade that takes years to get the hang of, even if you limit yourself to lathes alone. Decades if you go full-dive into machining, but from what I understand, they pay pretty well if you can find a job.

But if you have the skills as a machinist, and some basic knowledge of welding, you can make just about anything with enough time and stock material. My uncle once hand made a sink faucet housing to replace a broken one, on a porcelain sink with a horizontal faucet mount. We'd searched for weeks looking for a company that made replacement parts to no avail, and ended up just taking the old one to him with a section of stock. He carved the fittings, drilled the holes, even cut the proprietary threads for the knob. It looked so professional that it honestly looked like he went to the hardware store and bought it. Worked perfectly for years, until the bathroom got updated.

I also had him make some custom fittings for the manual oil pumps at work that screw into 55 gal. drums, which for some reason, use a proprietary thread pitch. It's basically just a large rectangular flange, but it needed very large custom threads, and they came out looking unrefined, but very clean. Perfect for what we needed. He explained the process he used to machine the threads, and I don't think I could have done it, even with help.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#14878 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Agreed. I was just interested s a hobby so at the end of the day could not justify spending years learning it. Still plan, someday hopefully before Tom finishes the comic, i can buy a tiny lathe/mill and have a tiny shop where i can build not so tiny things. I just like to make stuff ok?

And also yes an experienced welder, for example can earn significantly more than the engineers he works with. unless inside a factory machines still cant weld better than people, or at least not cost effectively. On the other hand not sure what machinist make money these days. I have seen several lathe/milling shops in my life but never really understand where they make money from. I once had to commission and special shaft for my bachelor thesis but i doubt many people have the need for such services and most place who do require regular machining of stuff will probably employ their own full time machinist.

Machined parts tend to have excellent mechanical properties, superb finishes and last ages. However they are also slow to build and expensive as it gets. You need to pay the expertise of the machinist after all. Hence industrially molds and extrusions are preferred.

Finally fun fact. I have no idea why but a milling machine has a very weird name in Spanish. We call it "fresadora" which a literal translation is "Strawberrying" machine what does a milling machine has to do with strawberries? Have no clue, milling cutter are also called "fresa" or strawberry if you directly translate.
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Re: Last Man Posting

#14879 Post by Neutral Smith »

Words.
If it moves but shouldn't: Duct tape. If it doesn't move but should: WD-40. With a hammer everything fits, and if it still doesn't fit: bigger hammer. If it can't be fixed with a hammer it's an electrical problem.

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Re: Last Man Posting

#14880 Post by Hayate »

Yup
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