Keidran Conlang

Anything and everything.

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
VladVP
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:12 am

Keidran Conlang

#1 Post by VladVP »

I wasn't sure which board would be the best to post this in, so I just picked this one since it seemed like the best fallback board.

Since finishing the entire webcomic two days ago, I started working on a conlang for the language Keidran use in the webcomic. The Twokinds wiki says that "[Keidran] language is described as being quite 'growly'." According to Wiktionary, the definition of the verb "growl" is (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/growl) "To utter a deep guttural sound, as an angry animal; to give forth an angry, grumbling sound.". This is great news for a linguist like me, since it offers rich opportunity to incorporate lots of phonetically guttural phonemes, and in essence make the whole language itself 'guttural'.
As the base for the current consonant and vowel sets, I've used four sources. The first is the two Keidran words that Flora attempts to teach Trace in one of the first chapters, namely ch'rall, for "grass", and marlch'ren, for "trees". The second is a map made by Tom from his DeviantArt that incorporates a lot of place names, especially for Keidran tribes/villages. (It's this one: http://twokinds.deviantart.com/art/Twok ... -296521380).
My third source is the Keidran demonym, or simply the word "Keidran" itself. Although it seems more than likely to be a human rendition, it still definitely has a Keidran etymology. The fourth source is the place that I am assuming the protagonists are trying to reach at this current point in the story: Lyn'knoll, or "Orchard Valley".
So, given all of that data, I was able to put together a consonant set:

Code: Select all

╔════════════════════╦════════╦═══════════╦════════╦════════════╗
║                    ║ Labial ║ Retroflex ║ Uvular ║ Epiglottal ║
╠════════════════════╬════════╬═══════════╬════════╬════════════╣
║ Nasal              ║ m      ║ ɳ         ║        ║            ║
║ Unvoiced Plosive   ║ p      ║ ʈ         ║ q      ║            ║
║ Voiced Plosive     ║ b      ║ ɖ         ║ ɢ      ║            ║
║ Unvoiced Fricative ║        ║ ʂ         ║        ║ ʜ          ║
║ Voiced Fricative   ║        ║ ʐ         ║ ʁ      ║ ʢ          ║
║ Ejectives          ║ pʼ     ║ ʈʂʼ       ║ qʼ     ║            ║
╚════════════════════╩════════╩═══════════╩════════╩════════════╝
Laterals: ɬ, l
...And a vowel set:

Code: Select all

╔═══════╦═══════╦═════════╦══════╗
║       ║ Front ║ Central ║ Back ║
╠═══════╬═══════╬═════════╬══════╣
║ Close ║ i     ║ ɨ       ║ u    ║
║ Mid   ║ e~ɛ   ║ ə       ║ o~ɔ  ║
║ Open  ║       ║ a~ɑ     ║      ║
╚═══════╩═══════╩═════════╩══════╝
Vowels are pretty self-explanatory. The reason there are so many retroflex consonants, is because they force the throat into a very narrow position which intentionally makes the voice much deeper. The uvulars and epiglottals are there to have a lots and lots of guttural and "growly" sounds, that you would expect some kind of canine animal to make. The ejectives are inspired by Ubykh, and add some exotic variety to the language. (Also, I needed to figure out what the apostrophe was supposed to mean.) The voiceless alveolar lateral fricative (ɬ) comes straight from Welsh, and is represented in Welsh by two L's (Ll).

So, without further ado, let me go straight to some auditory examples:
grass = ch'rall → /ʈʂʼʁaɬ/: http://vocaroo.com/i/s00rSoH8m5Ts
trees = marlch'ren → /'maʁl.ʈʂʼʁɛɳ/: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1cXxk9h9cjI

So, everything seems ready to progress the language to morphology, and then eventually grammar and vocabulary. The only problem I am faced with at the moment is figuring out what in the world the apostrophe means in Keidran words. So far, I have been using it to indicate ejective consonants, but this doesn't work well with the place-name "Lyn'knoll", since nasals ("n") can't be ejective.
The only one who can answer this question with absolute certainty is Tom himself, and I doubt I have much of a chance to get a word out of him, but I would be more than glad to hear you guys' suggestions as to what the apostrophe could mean, because as a linguist, I am honestly clueless.
At some point someone on the IRC channel suggested that it was used like in English for contractions. If this is true, it must be an internal part of Keidran morphology, for it seems to happen in a lot of words. Even proper nouns contain the apostrophe.

Warrl
Grand Templar
Posts: 1526
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:19 pm

Re: Keidran Conlang

#2 Post by Warrl »

Don't forget that felid Keidran speak the same language, sufficiently similarly that canids and felids can easily understand each other's speech. And that while there are apparently Keidran words that Humans can't pronounce (such as Sythe's original name), both canid and felid Keidran can speak Human fluently. (Which is really surprising given, among other things, their lack of nearly-prehensile lips.)

As it happens, I'm trying to come up with a felid language. I only need a naming language, where I suspect you're going for something more complete. And I don't have to deal with canids. On the other hand, most naming languages are used to name a few places and people. I'll also be naming some plant and animal species, and maybe some tools, and possibly some objects that my sort-of-felids have never encountered before.

And there's the little difficulty that I know very little of linguistics. I'd love to just find where someone else has codified cat phonemes... with audio tracks so I can find out what the heck all those different terms *mean*. In the sense of what a phoneme in any particular box actually sounds like.

Side note: real-world felid speech has rather more consistency than one would guess. Not that cats speak to each other all that often; they speak mostly to humans. And that's a relatively recent need in the evolutionary history of housecats - vastly MORE recent for most other cats. Nonetheless, if you've learned to understand by sound when a housecat is reminding you that it's his supper time, you'll have no difficulty recognizing when the lions at the zoo are making the same statement.

User avatar
Myperson54
The Imagineer
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:26 pm
Location: An infinite sea of salt

Re: Keidran Conlang

#3 Post by Myperson54 »

Holy crap, another linguistics nerd?

Image

I'm going to have to read this over when I have more time. People have tried this before, but it seems as though this is much more thought-through than other attempts.

Also, I notice you only have 2 posts here, so welcome!
Image

I am become salt, destroyer of memes

Join the Unofficial 2k Discord Channel!

User avatar
InceptionBwaaa
Grand Templar
Posts: 1089
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:51 am
Location: Writing my [censored] off.
Contact:

Re: Keidran Conlang

#4 Post by InceptionBwaaa »

VladVP wrote:- spiders avatar -
UUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NONONONONONONONOONNOONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO


Why? Why must your avatar be so horrific and nightmare-inducing?
Certified Jojo fan
"She's a keeper!" ~Firekeeper
Stardust Crusaders banner coming soon.
Zelda x Palutena is the one true ship.

Chris
Templar
Posts: 371
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:53 am

Re: Keidran Conlang

#5 Post by Chris »

VladVP wrote:The only problem I am faced with at the moment is figuring out what in the world the apostrophe means in Keidran words. So far, I have been using it to indicate ejective consonants, but this doesn't work well with the place-name "Lyn'knoll", since nasals ("n") can't be ejective.
For "Lyn'knoll" in particular, don't forget it's actually a combination of the keidran and human languages, creating a rather ugly word according to Lady Nora. In this specific case it could be taken to indicate a contraction of sorts ("knoll" is an actual real-life word, meaning a small natural hill, or hillock), while a more "pure" keidran word could use it for a different purpose.
Image

User avatar
VladVP
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:12 am

Re: Keidran Conlang

#6 Post by VladVP »

Warrl wrote:-all you said-
Well, my language is intended for all Keidran, not just canids. To be completely honest, I doubt that the differences between canid and felid Keidran language is anything other than dialectal. You would definitely expect that to eventually happen if two peoples that speak the same language are separated by thousands of kilometres.
Myperson54 wrote:Also, I notice you only have 2 posts here, so welcome!
Thanks. The only reason I decided to document my conlang here on the forum, though, was because I was perma-banned from the IRC. :oops:
InceptionBwaaa wrote:
VladVP wrote:- spiders avatar -
UUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH NONONONONONONONOONNOONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO


Why? Why must your avatar be so horrific and nightmare-inducing?
Haha, that image is probably the least nightmare-inducing in all of my shock folder.
Chris wrote:
VladVP wrote:The only problem I am faced with at the moment is figuring out what in the world the apostrophe means in Keidran words. So far, I have been using it to indicate ejective consonants, but this doesn't work well with the place-name "Lyn'knoll", since nasals ("n") can't be ejective.
For "Lyn'knoll" in particular, don't forget it's actually a combination of the keidran and human languages, creating a rather ugly word according to Lady Nora. In this specific case it could be taken to indicate a contraction of sorts ("knoll" is an actual real-life word, meaning a small natural hill, or hillock), while a more "pure" keidran word could use it for a different purpose.
Oh, I was not aware that it was a portmanteau. (Or just a Keidran word followed by a loanword?) This suddenly makes the apostrophe as a contraction much more likely.

User avatar
Him
The Secret Forum Mod
Posts: 1970
Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 12:07 am
Location: Montana
Fav. Twokinds Character: Natani

Re: Keidran Conlang

#7 Post by Him »

This thread would have been better in Comic Discussion. Disregarding that little bit though, this is interesting. This idea has caught my eye. I hope you stay with us long enough to actually finish it.

Oh, and welcome to the forum, enjoy your stay.

User avatar
Bellhead
Templar Inner Circle
Posts: 4012
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:17 pm
Location: New England, US
Fav. Twokinds Character: Keith and Natani

Re: Keidran Conlang

#8 Post by Bellhead »

I always read the apostrophe as a slight pause, just as it is in music, or when not part of a contraction.
Gearhead mechanic in the digital era, who will probably grow up is in the process of growing up to be a very grumpy old man.

User avatar
zedrox
Traveler
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:13 pm
Location: Uk

Re: Keidran Conlang

#9 Post by zedrox »

The apostrophe might be a way of indicating pronunciation, like accents in Spanish(á, é, í, ó, ú, ü, ñ, , ¡)
Unlike in the English language, where the pronunciation of a word is usually easy to work out or not even relevant, Keidran may heavily relly on it, much like Spanish or Japanese, where in some situations changing the way a word is said can completely change the meaning

Warrl
Grand Templar
Posts: 1526
Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:19 pm

Re: Keidran Conlang

#10 Post by Warrl »

VladVP wrote:
Warrl wrote:-all you said-
Well, my language is intended for all Keidran, not just canids. To be completely honest, I doubt that the differences between canid and felid Keidran language is anything other than dialectal. You would definitely expect that to eventually happen if two peoples that speak the same language are separated by thousands of kilometres.
Particularly if they have significantly different mouth shapes, as wolves and cats do, and possibly other differences in the vocal tracts. (Cats' vocal systems come in two significantly-different varieties; one variety purrs, the other roars. Nonetheless, the sound for "hey humans, it's my usual feeding time" has no obvious difference between housecats and lions other than pitch. Of course, that sound includes neither purring nor roaring.)

Post Reply