Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#16 Post by Bellhead »

sotanaht wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:28 am It would actually be a good idea to design a mind control device to fail if following an order required extreme actions outside of the direct order. Imagine you order a slave to go outside, but the guards stop her, so that the slave believes the only immediate way to get through that door is to kill the guards. That would be something of a design flaw that might end up doing more harm than good, with simply orders leading to unforeseen consequences. So build in a failsafe so the slave doesn't have to do anything too extreme unless specifically ordered. More commonly that "failsafe" simply comes in the form of the slave being able to break control if an order goes too strongly against their morality, but it leads to the same end.
This. Right here. Very valid point.

However, I'll add in that this is Clovis' shackle we're talking about, and I doubt he cares about anything other than getting his property, so harming anyone in the way of that may very well be one of it's features, rather than a design flaw. Who knows? Maybe he had all his men, or at least his closest henchmen, wear (or have enchanted on them) some kind of charm or identifier that prevents harm from whoever is wearing that shackle, but that's picking nits. To be fair, though, he did supposedly engineer the soul link between Nat and Zen, so it wouldn't be that far-fetched...

Now that I think about it... Back when Raine broke the collar, her mindset at the time was rather specific, and very strong and directed. I.. am.. IN CONTROL! Now I'm not saying that "control" is absolutely the only mindset that can overpower an enchanted shackle, but it's certainly powerful. And, if we assume that it was Eric calling to her, her love for him is pretty darn strong. Couple that with the suddenness of her reaction, and an innate desire to not leave him, and you'd get a ton of focus and a lot of willpower and emotion compressed into a timeframe short enough that it would spike pretty high. A 'moment of truth', as it were. And for somebody with intense emotions and a lot of willpower, I doubt she'd have trouble overcoming that shackle if only for a moment. And if she can overcome it, it may just burn itself out and fail.

Just maybe.
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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#17 Post by SomeBody »

Here's some more "Eric" wild-bass-guessing.

Given he considers Kat to basically be his sister, but also very much an item at risk of being bought, sold or stolen: Could he have rigged her with spells to break slave collars years ago? Seems like a reasonable thing to do if he was afraid somebody (his older brother, perhaps) was going to take off with her.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#18 Post by Zaigan »

CrimsonQuill086 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:18 pm Finally made an account for this forum, first time posting, so I have a theory.

Remember when Zen had the Magic-nullifying shackle burning into his wound? The runes were on the INSIDE of the shackle. What if they got branded into his skin? There's a specific focus on his leg, and I don't think it's just for injury...what if Zen is now a walking magic nullifier? That would explain Kat's shackle going out.
That was just the thought I had. I wonder if it's why Zen's wound is having such trouble healing, too? I mean, having a magic nullifying leg could be handy, if he can keep it attached. With all the abuse of magic that has happened at the Legacy Estate, that could be a useful power. Hopefully he won't need to become a peg-leg, although the scratch won't help him heal, either.

All and all, I'd say that went better than I expected.
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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#19 Post by Rafe »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:24 pm First I guess we are not gonna find out what exactly Zen did to Rom. Too graphic maybe? Yet again Zen himself was skewered by Keith not that many years ago...
There aren't a whole lot of moves that an assassin can use to drop a victim from behind that quickly, but some come to mind:
1) A knife up from under his ribs (or, trickier, through his ribs) and into his heart and lungs.
2) a knife into his neck below his ear, hitting his carotid artery or juglar vein, and maybe getting his vagus nerve along the way
(Both of these would be pretty messy, blood wise, but 2) would drop him like a rock.)
3) A cleaner, and maybe even quicker way - a knife (or even stealthier, something like an ice-pick) into the base of his skull and into his brain. Quick, and so clean it's hard to know what happened unless you do a close examination.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#20 Post by steelabjur »

sotanaht wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:28 am It would actually be a good idea to design a mind control device to fail if following an order required extreme actions outside of the direct order. Imagine you order a slave to go outside, but the guards stop her, so that the slave believes the only immediate way to get through that door is to kill the guards. That would be something of a design flaw that might end up doing more harm than good, with simply orders leading to unforeseen consequences. So build in a failsafe so the slave doesn't have to do anything too extreme unless specifically ordered. More commonly that "failsafe" simply comes in the form of the slave being able to break control if an order goes too strongly against their morality, but it leads to the same end.
It'd make more sense to just have a "list" of "authorized users" (for want of a better term) who can order your slaves around built into the device than any sort of "failsafe" that would let your slave regain freewill. To take your example, the guards would be on the list of people the slave has to listen to, so would stop when ordered, while a raider trying to take a slave from a field they were ordered to work would have a difficult time of it and would have to physically drag them from the field.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#21 Post by sotanaht »

steelabjur wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:26 am
sotanaht wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:28 am It would actually be a good idea to design a mind control device to fail if following an order required extreme actions outside of the direct order. Imagine you order a slave to go outside, but the guards stop her, so that the slave believes the only immediate way to get through that door is to kill the guards. That would be something of a design flaw that might end up doing more harm than good, with simply orders leading to unforeseen consequences. So build in a failsafe so the slave doesn't have to do anything too extreme unless specifically ordered. More commonly that "failsafe" simply comes in the form of the slave being able to break control if an order goes too strongly against their morality, but it leads to the same end.
It'd make more sense to just have a "list" of "authorized users" (for want of a better term) who can order your slaves around built into the device than any sort of "failsafe" that would let your slave regain freewill. To take your example, the guards would be on the list of people the slave has to listen to, so would stop when ordered, while a raider trying to take a slave from a field they were ordered to work would have a difficult time of it and would have to physically drag them from the field.
That only works in certain circumstances, where you can know ahead of time every person they interact with, and assumes you can the ability to build in extensive lists. Besides, ideally you wouldn't be giving them "free will" as such, just the ability to disobey an order if significant unforeseen circumstances arise. That does not mean the complete shutdown of all control.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#22 Post by Thomas Rot »

CrimsonQuill086 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:18 pm Finally made an account for this forum, first time posting, so I have a theory.

Remember when Zen had the Magic-nullifying shackle burning into his wound? The runes were on the INSIDE of the shackle. What if they got branded into his skin? There's a specific focus on his leg, and I don't think it's just for injury...what if Zen is now a walking magic nullifier? That would explain Kat's shackle going out.
steelabjur wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:21 pm I suggested this during the stream, but what if a shard of the antimagic shackle itself was embedded into his leg when it exploded? It might still have some residual magical power that interacted with Kat's cuff when her claws pierced Zen's bandages. Having a bit of metal in the wound might explain why Zen's wound is still a problem.
Here's the only good shot we have of Zen's burnt leg. No visual evidence there that suggests embedded shards (the shackle was subjected to extreme heat and simply fell off after getting a bit melted), branded runes, or other shackle-related residual magic effects. I do like the theory though. The up-close panel focus on Zen's leg is pretty good evidence that something's going on with it, so maybe we can chalk this one up to Tom working this plot point in after he drew page 998.

Quite a lot of things could have happened at the same moment for the bracelet here to fail, though, interestingly:
1. Zen's leg (debatable, as just described above)
2. Eric arriving on-scene and triggering whatever brotherly love/arcane slaveowning failsafes/magical dei ex machina might be affecting the shackle's effectiveness on Kat (and Cinnibar raises an extremely good point about Kat being in a potentially unique situation, as a technically-but-perhaps-not-legally free Keidran owned-but-not-quite-enslaved by a human, to nullify the shackle in a way that Zen might not have been able to do)
3. Someone else arriving on-scene and somehow managing to deactivate the shackle (unlikely barring further evidence — Kat screamed loud enough for Zen to hear her in the infirmary or wherever he was sneaking about, and Zen's just yelled for help as well, but AFAWK neither of them know where everyone else is or whether they are close enough to help)
4. Rom dying and the bracelet just deactivates because he was the one currently running it (unlikely; not how these slave-trading devices work, and Clovis would still be in control of the bracelet, see below)
5. Clovis has just died offscreen, thus completely nullifying the bracelet's effects, and we're about to cut back to where we left off with him (a potentially interesting way out. Would need some narrative massaging though; assuming my reckoning is correct, we're still a little while removed from Reni entering the dungeons. If Tom chooses to cut back now the battle royale between them would have to conclude very quickly, and in Reni's favour, for this scenario to happen for Kat.)
Vera Accalia wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:47 pm My theory is that Rom was the only one on the auth list at the moment. Maybe Clovis has to manually add himself to that list, which is why Rom wanted Kat to step outside and be teleported. My guess is Rom officially just died. Also, the text being yellow does make me think that Eric has just arrived, hopefully not thinking Zen was attacking her.
Trouble with that is that Rom told Kat even he couldn't get the shackle off her once he put it on. Clovis had to have been enabled as an authorised user by then for him to word it that way.

Out of interest, have we ever seen anyone's speech appear in yellow at all during the comic? My gut feeling and approximate memory is that it hasn't.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#23 Post by HSishi »

Mh, am I the only one noticing there is a little glow around Zen in Panel 6? Maybe there IS a little magic working here.

Also it's plausible Kat's bracer is / was linked to Romulus only before, so if Romulus is dead (or at least unconscious), his control is gone.

In case Glovis was already on the bracer's "auth list", it means Glovis also got defeated in the meantime, leaving the bracer without any persons linked to it.

My favourite is Eric's call for Kat, triggering a subconscious thought of him being Kat's owner (though, they both don't treat each other in Master - Servant roles) which annuls the bracer's magic - a slave can't be owned by two people and also not be stolen.
Or Kat's brain just overcome the bracer's magic after she recognized Eric. But in that case the bracer should break, like the bracer Raine wore during Rose's lessons, just less violent.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#24 Post by IHeartMaeve »

HSishi wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:46 am Or Kat's brain just overcome the bracer's magic after she recognized Eric.
That's quite similar to my theory, with mine being (more specifically) that the one calling for Kat was Eric, and her feelings for him helped snap her out of it, basically allowing the whole "love conquers all" effect to exist as a deus ex machina in this moment.
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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#25 Post by Ainoko Ironrose »

HSishi wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:46 am Mh, am I the only one noticing there is a little glow around Zen in Panel 6? Maybe there IS a little magic working here.

Also it's plausible Kat's bracer is / was linked to Romulus only before, so if Romulus is dead (or at least unconscious), his control is gone.

In case Glovis was already on the bracer's "auth list", it means Glovis also got defeated in the meantime, leaving the bracer without any persons linked to it.

My favourite is Eric's call for Kat, triggering a subconscious thought of him being Kat's owner (though, they both don't treat each other in Master - Servant roles) which annuls the bracer's magic - a slave can't be owned by two people and also not be stolen.
Or Kat's brain just overcome the bracer's magic after she recognized Eric. But in that case the bracer should break, like the bracer Raine wore during Rose's lessons, just less violent.
I noticed the glow around Zen as well. I think that Zen has absorbed some of the nullifying magic from the bracelet.

Also, I have a feeling that Zen has feeling for Kat, more than Eric has for her it seems.
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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#26 Post by Bellhead »

Ainoko Ironrose wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:18 pm Also, I have a feeling that Zen has feeling for Kat, more than Eric has for her it seems.
Well, it has been hinted at just a few times over the years that they might become a thing at some point before everything's settled. In the side art, anyway.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#27 Post by steelabjur »

Thomas Rot wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:05 am Quite a lot of things could have happened at the same moment for the bracelet here to fail, though, interestingly:
1. Zen's leg (debatable, as just described above)
2. Eric arriving on-scene and triggering whatever brotherly love/arcane slaveowning failsafes/magical dei ex machina might be affecting the shackle's effectiveness on Kat (and Cinnibar raises an extremely good point about Kat being in a potentially unique situation, as a technically-but-perhaps-not-legally free Keidran owned-but-not-quite-enslaved by a human, to nullify the shackle in a way that Zen might not have been able to do)
3. Someone else arriving on-scene and somehow managing to deactivate the shackle (unlikely barring further evidence — Kat screamed loud enough for Zen to hear her in the infirmary or wherever he was sneaking about, and Zen's just yelled for help as well, but AFAWK neither of them know where everyone else is or whether they are close enough to help)
4. Rom dying and the bracelet just deactivates because he was the one currently running it (unlikely; not how these slave-trading devices work, and Clovis would still be in control of the bracelet, see below)
5. Clovis has just died offscreen, thus completely nullifying the bracelet's effects, and we're about to cut back to where we left off with him (a potentially interesting way out. Would need some narrative massaging though; assuming my reckoning is correct, we're still a little while removed from Reni entering the dungeons. If Tom chooses to cut back now the battle royale between them would have to conclude very quickly, and in Reni's favour, for this scenario to happen for Kat.)
Regarding 2, I doubt a device owned by the so-called "Prince of Greed" would care much about previous owners or legal grey areas. Clovis is rather notorious about not caring about little issues like ownership of something he wants (See: The Dragon Masquerade). Rom also suspected that Kat had an owner but didn't seem bothered by the idea, which suggests to me it wouldn't matter if she had one.

Regarding 5, we heard Reni crashing through the roof in pt. 1, and I doubt enough time has passed in these pages for Reni to have gotten off the roof, down to the dungeon, and defeat Clovis (not to mention it would be bad storytelling to defeat Clovis off camera like that, even if the next panel goes back in time to show it).

Something worth noting is the cuff completely depowered, stopped glowing (the runes were glowing red in previous panels) and made a powering down sound in the final panel (something I can't recall another magical device making). To go with another comment, perhaps the magic suppression runes, written backwards, have a magic draining effect and sucked away the magic powering the cuff?

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#28 Post by Warrl »

It's possible that the shackle would be active if anyone alive (and authorized?) had given Kat any orders for it to enforce...

Clovis hasn't had opportunity to give her any orders. So it can't enforce his orders. In fact, since it was put on only Romulus has given her any orders, and he's apparently dead.

(Zen's a Brother of the Assassins' Guild, so presumably competent enough to single-strike kill a distracted target from behind if he has a sharp-tipped blade at least 2" long.)

So now I'd like to see Zen give her a simple order. Something not embarrassing or dangerous, but something she wouldn't be likely to do spontaneously right now. Maybe a handstand. But I bet nothing like that will happen.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#29 Post by Starcat5 »

HSishi wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 9:46 am Or Kat's brain just overcome the bracer's magic after she recognized Eric. But in that case the bracer should break, like the bracer Raine wore during Rose's lessons, just less violent.
Just one problem with that: The collar wasn't supposed to break. My guess is that Raine was only meant to shut it down, with her transformation being "Linked" to the cause of the shut down, not the cause itself. As such, it is entirely possible that this was what Rose was expecting, minus transformation.

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Re: Comic for June 19, 2021: Kathrin in trouble pt6

#30 Post by Cinnibar »

steelabjur wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:18 pm
Thomas Rot wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:05 am 2. Eric arriving on-scene and triggering whatever brotherly love/arcane slaveowning failsafes/magical dei ex machina might be affecting the shackle's effectiveness on Kat (and Cinnibar raises an extremely good point about Kat being in a potentially unique situation, as a technically-but-perhaps-not-legally free Keidran owned-but-not-quite-enslaved by a human, to nullify the shackle in a way that Zen might not have been able to do)
Regarding 2, I doubt a device owned by the so-called "Prince of Greed" would care much about previous owners or legal grey areas. Clovis is rather notorious about not caring about little issues like ownership of something he wants (See: The Dragon Masquerade). Rom also suspected that Kat had an owner but didn't seem bothered by the idea, which suggests to me it wouldn't matter if she had one.
I had thought that simply a cry from a human would be treated as more urgent by the shackle than any commands from a keidran, given the nature of the magic we've seen. But that would not explain the runes fading away.

So updated wild theory. :)

Consider that the shackle was intended for Zen, and probably made for him with its additional teleport spell. The noise of the runes fading upon hearing 'Kat':
"What, that's the 'owner'? This Keidran has an owner? Oh forget this, Clovis, you didn't pay my enchanter enough to get involved in and maybe caught for Keidran rustling. I'm out of here. You're on your own! Peace out!"
Kat may well consider herself 'owned but not enslaved' to that extent. I don't see Kat or any Keidren basically breaking the spell on their own, Raine was able to tap into her 'human' side enough to do that. Keidran are not supposed to be able to in this setting normally.

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