Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#31 Post by Him »

I'm happy to see some competent assassin work from Zen. Ideally this was a one-hit-kill or else Romulus is gonna weaponize Kat or make her harm herself.

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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#32 Post by Spiffydragon »

Him wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:05 am I'm happy to see some competent assassin work from Zen. Ideally this was a one-hit-kill or else Romulus is gonna weaponize Kat or make her harm herself.
A friend of mine actually touched on this, we assume Zen actually is good at his job and struck a vital point; but the opposite might the case; at least I hope so. I doubt Romulus will weaponize Kat, at best, he will tell her to help him and there are many ways to help Romulus that don't involve attacking Zen; including but not limited to grabbing the knife and simply asking Zen to stop. After two decent stabs wounds, most people aren't going to want a third; regardless of how much money is being paid for a job.

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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#33 Post by DragnMastralex »

I think Romulus is dead. knowing Zen he's not playing around, knife right to the main artery. he's going to bleed out in seconds. not even enough time to take 5 steps before he drops dead, like Bill in Kill Bill vol 2. Kat will continue walking and see Clovis where he fell, most likely unconscious... and maybe with amnesia. if he does have amnesia Kat can get him to remove the bracelet.

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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#34 Post by Spiffydragon »

It depends on the artery and severity of the injury. Arterial bleeding isn't a magical instant kill and people survive even grievous femoral bleeding and amputation as long as it's treated in a timely manner. Severe bleeding needs to be addressed within minutes, preferably ASAP, and professional care within the golden hour; less grievous but still serious bleeding afford a bit more time. It can take around seven seconds to lose consciousness from lack of blood flow to the brain, so even outright destroying someone's heart doesn't guarantee they can't turn around for one last strike; although unlikely.

If the little whiffs of fur near Romulus' neck is anything to go by then Zen probably stabbed him in the upper back behind his neck while going for the Aorta. A steak knife can probably reach it depending on how far down the stab wound is but there is also the carotid and vertebral arteries that are into directly in the same area and it would be exceptional luck if none of them were hit. This is ASSUMING that the few pixels detached from Romulus are the wound location and there is no major indication that it is.

If he is stabbed there and managed to not have any arteries cut, it would be in his best interest to utterly freeze in place.

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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#35 Post by stlsf4003 »

I just had a thought.

What if instead of out right killing him, what if Zen's stabbing was meant to paralyze Romulus? A good hard knife thrust to the spine should be enough to sever it.
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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#36 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Spiffydragon wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:32 pm Perhaps I'm being a devil's advocate but It would be fairly hypocritical of Zen to kill Romulus when Team B had every reason to kill Zen when he tried to capture Scythe. Circumstances changed and Zen got a lucky break; it would reflect poorly on him if he didn't remember that and extend the same to someone else at some point.

-snipped for claritt-

Disclaimer: Yes, I like the twins; I'm a sucker for wolves, jackals, Yotes, and independent types. Despite the twins behaving like FnAs, they don't seem to be evil, and I'm not convinced they deserve death; but it's not my call to make.
Yes this. The twins are mercenaries and unlike Carver, a sadist and Clovis a greedy sociopath they seem to be there only to get the job done and get paid. They are in for the money, pretty much as Nat/Zen before as they were assassins for hire. Does this makes them good? Of course not under any metric these likely bad people and probably deserve some form of punishment for current and past deeds. But I am not sure they deserve to be executed on the spot or suffer a long and painful death.

You also bring another point, whether intended for the beginning or not one of the comics themes is redemption and second chances specially ones you got without deserving them. Romulus, Remus, Brutus and Clovis are all likely horrible people who would better rot in a dungeon but Trace was worse, and yet even if he did not wanted to nor deserved it, for situations he could not control got a second chance at life, it would be a bit off if the rest did not at least got a similar deal.

Also as you point out there is no reason that if they survive they need to join the group, again mercenaries without Clovis, who i do not expect to survive the chapter, in the equation they can simply go their merry way.
Spiffydragon wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:19 am
Him wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:05 am I'm happy to see some competent assassin work from Zen. Ideally this was a one-hit-kill or else Romulus is gonna weaponize Kat or make her harm herself.
A friend of mine actually touched on this, we assume Zen actually is good at his job and struck a vital point; but the opposite might the case; at least I hope so. I doubt Romulus will weaponize Kat, at best, he will tell her to help him and there are many ways to help Romulus that don't involve attacking Zen; including but not limited to grabbing the knife and simply asking Zen to stop. After two decent stabs wounds, most people aren't going to want a third; regardless of how much money is being paid for a job.
Maye he manages to say "help me" and Kat forced by the amulet starts treating him by stopping the bleeding and other first aids.
stlsf4003 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:45 am I just had a thought.

What if instead of out right killing him, what if Zen's stabbing was meant to paralyze Romulus? A good hard knife thrust to the spine should be enough to sever it.
I have the idea that Zen may not kill Romulus just incapacitate him. Not because he does not want to but given his bad condition he may be unable to kill him proper.
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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#37 Post by aitaituo »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:09 am
Spiffydragon wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:19 am
Him wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:05 am I'm happy to see some competent assassin work from Zen. Ideally this was a one-hit-kill or else Romulus is gonna weaponize Kat or make her harm herself.
A friend of mine actually touched on this, we assume Zen actually is good at his job and struck a vital point; but the opposite might the case; at least I hope so. I doubt Romulus will weaponize Kat, at best, he will tell her to help him and there are many ways to help Romulus that don't involve attacking Zen; including but not limited to grabbing the knife and simply asking Zen to stop. After two decent stabs wounds, most people aren't going to want a third; regardless of how much money is being paid for a job.
Maye he manages to say "help me" and Kat forced by the amulet starts treating him by stopping the bleeding and other first aids.
If Tom wanted to get really grimdark, Romulus' last words could be, "Kill Zen."

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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#38 Post by Eclipse »

Spiffydragon wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:32 pm @Eclipse: Brutus is a prisoner and wouldn't be outside waiting. Roan was a chicken and the other outside was turned into a cow TMK. I'm not sure how well Brutus knows the twins, they may have been friends and he the short stick most of the time. If they were a group, that would mean Brutus isn't going to have a whole lot left if he does survive; in which case death would be preferable to having to start over in the middle of your life with no one and nothing. I have a feeling Brutus will take the stored / reflected attack from Clovis since it's tidy. Clovis seems to be set on his path in life and it's both unlikely and improbable that any event would change that. Death would be fitting, that or losing everything, especially after betraying all of his wolves in the pursuit of money.
Oh derp. I was thinking she would be teleported to the dungeons with Roan and Brutus, but that only works if she enters the house, not leaves it.

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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#39 Post by Zaigan »

Him wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:05 am I'm happy to see some competent assassin work from Zen. Ideally this was a one-hit-kill or else Romulus is gonna weaponize Kat or make her harm herself.
I have a sinking feeling that it wasn't a one hit kill since Clovis' goon is still talking (possibly Zen hasn't attacked fully yet and is about to follow through... although he reacted to one hit, but he is also talking), and I kind of thought weaponizing Kat would make for a dramatic moment.

Still, knew Zen would come to the rescue! I hope it works out for them, cuz Kat needs to accept Eric sees her as a sister and not a love interest. She deserves happiness, but sometimes we don't find it in the first place we look.
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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#40 Post by Thomas Rot »

Just to get one thing out of the way first: where is Kat going? She seems to be moving towards what we clearly saw was a window a few pages ago. You'd expect Kat to have to cross to the door to get out of the mansion, or wherever this waypoint of Clovis' is specifically located, instead of self-defenestrating like this. (This totally doesn't mess up my internal reckoning of the mansion either. Nope, not at all.)

Also wanted to remark on that line of Kat's. More significant that Romulus seems to realise, and he never did explicitly order her not to lie despite what his dialogue implies, so its meaning obviously passed him over. This could develop into something more significant if Kat ends up getting abducted, not just vis-a-vis Clovis trying to assert "ownership" but perhaps also drawing in external legalities. To the outside world, Kat may still technically be Eric's property; did Eric ever manage to file paperwork for her while in Edinmire? Kat openly declaring that she doesn't belong to anyone might raise eyebrows if the wrong people hear it. Romulus seems to think that Kat belongs to the estate though. Just what kind of a picture of Trace's (lack of) powers did Brahn describe to Clovis, if he and his goons think asserting their ownership over what they believe to be Trace's property is a-OK?

This shackle is interesting. So we do have confirmation that Clovis is the only one capable of getting it off in the proper way — seems he didn't trust Romulus to subdue Zen quite as easily as Rom himself thought, if he considered the outside chance of things going wrong and having the shackle end up on someone else. Obviously "the proper way" discounts things like Raine blasting it off or that little incident with the force field that got Zen into this state. But I'm trying to think about the other shackles we've seen:

Mike's and Evals' slave collars have their user permissions set to Eric alone, obviously. Together with the nonmagical cuffs on their wrists, these seem to be the closest thing to standard-issue shackles in the comic so far. There wouldn't be "forbidden users" on these commonly sold collars unless a slave master wanted to go to the trouble of doing that for each slave (and I can't see Eric doing that). Far easier to just restrict its command functions to one person.
The slave collar Rose put on Raine. As far as we can see Rose didn't mess around with it; whatever its permissions are that we saw in-comic are the ones that evil Trace originally set. That also means Rose didn't try to enter Raine as a "forbidden user" for her training exercise with the collar. They seem to be set specifically to obey Trace and whoever else held authority within the estate.
• As for this shackle… either way it doesn't seem likely that there are "forbidden user" settings built into it, if only because such a function doesn't make any logistical sense for the few examples we've seen so far. Its other functions are interestingly expansive, however, and much closer to the Trace-modified collars in the more subtle way they interact with the shackled person (or it might simply be Tom's worldbuilding evolution at work). Maybe that setting is still a possibility after all, but I don't think it's likely.

We haven't seen conflicting orders be given to a collared or shackled person before. But if this shackle is worth its salt, even if other randoms were allowed to give orders to it — which I doubt — the presence of a higher command level for Clovis strongly suggests that orders from anyone else wouldn't take precedence over orders from Clovis and friends. Perhaps they might if Clovis and friends died and weren't capable of giving conflicting orders. Who knows how these things work? Certainly not us.

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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#41 Post by Vera Accalia »

I do not like the looks of this. Bad guys being beaten, things looking like there is hope, I've seen enough movies and read enough books that it's going to go bad. Clovis will probably poof out or something, Kat will be teleported, and quite possibly a fight between Trace and Scythe may break out when Scythe sees Merin

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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#42 Post by Makaira »

Zaigan wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:40 am I have a sinking feeling that it wasn't a one hit kill since Clovis' goon is still talking (possibly Zen hasn't attacked fully yet and is about to follow through... although he reacted to one hit, but he is also talking), and I kind of thought weaponizing Kat would make for a dramatic moment.
If Zen didn't manage to finish off Romulus, keep in mind that Zen and Natani have a mental link. It's likely Natani knows everything that's going on since she was just recently freed from the room of illusions. So Zen has backup on the way if needed.

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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#43 Post by steelabjur »

Eclipse wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:46 pm Romulus mentioned sending her to "his friends". I think he means Brutus and Roan in the dungeons, so things aren't quite going to go according to his plan seeing as one is a roasted pile of bones and the other is dying of poison. But Clovis and Reni are fighting down there, so that's still not a place Kat wants to be right now.
He mentioned the warding around the manor but that once outside "it'll" (meaning the cuff) send her to his friends, so it must have transportation magic built in that'll teleport her. Roan mentioned Sam being turned into a cow and Clovis mentioned that some of his people already took Sam off. Clovis obviously has more goons than he brought with him to the manor holed up somewhere. I suspect that the guards that led away Adira were also his guys in disguise so Riftwall would be empty for them to make their escape.

Seems to me likely that brothers Rom and Rem are/were higher ranking members of Clovis' gang to be along on this mission, given Clovis' feelings toward the Magi Brothers, I doubt he'd bring braindead grunts or mercs that might turn on him if the right incentive is offered to go after them. Mercs especially might balk at doing something like the terrorist attack on the square where the fact that they're wolves gets revealed. The Wolf Keidran Kingdom is already at war with the Human Kingdom, there is certain to be plenty of work for Wolf mercs raiding villages and such, there's no percentage in it for independent mercs to drag the Tigers into the fight. Rom literally just enslaved Kat to give to Clovis, that suggests a closer connection than hired muscle.
Thomas Rot wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:21 am Just to get one thing out of the way first: where is Kat going? She seems to be moving towards what we clearly saw was a window a few pages ago. You'd expect Kat to have to cross to the door to get out of the mansion, or wherever this waypoint of Clovis' is specifically located, instead of self-defenestrating like this. (This totally doesn't mess up my internal reckoning of the mansion either. Nope, not at all.)

Also wanted to remark on that line of Kat's. More significant that Romulus seems to realise, and he never did explicitly order her not to lie despite what his dialogue implies, so its meaning obviously passed him over. This could develop into something more significant if Kat ends up getting abducted, not just vis-a-vis Clovis trying to assert "ownership" but perhaps also drawing in external legalities. To the outside world, Kat may still technically be Eric's property; did Eric ever manage to file paperwork for her while in Edinmire? Kat openly declaring that she doesn't belong to anyone might raise eyebrows if the wrong people hear it. Romulus seems to think that Kat belongs to the estate though. Just what kind of a picture of Trace's (lack of) powers did Brahn describe to Clovis, if he and his goons think asserting their ownership over what they believe to be Trace's property is a-OK?

This shackle is interesting. So we do have confirmation that Clovis is the only one capable of getting it off in the proper way — seems he didn't trust Romulus to subdue Zen quite as easily as Rom himself thought, if he considered the outside chance of things going wrong and having the shackle end up on someone else. Obviously "the proper way" discounts things like Raine blasting it off or that little incident with the force field that got Zen into this state. But I'm trying to think about the other shackles we've seen:

Mike's and Evals' slave collars have their user permissions set to Eric alone, obviously. Together with the nonmagical cuffs on their wrists, these seem to be the closest thing to standard-issue shackles in the comic so far. There wouldn't be "forbidden users" on these commonly sold collars unless a slave master wanted to go to the trouble of doing that for each slave (and I can't see Eric doing that). Far easier to just restrict its command functions to one person.
The slave collar Rose put on Raine. As far as we can see Rose didn't mess around with it; whatever its permissions are that we saw in-comic are the ones that evil Trace originally set. That also means Rose didn't try to enter Raine as a "forbidden user" for her training exercise with the collar. They seem to be set specifically to obey Trace and whoever else held authority within the estate.
• As for this shackle… either way it doesn't seem likely that there are "forbidden user" settings built into it, if only because such a function doesn't make any logistical sense for the few examples we've seen so far. Its other functions are interestingly expansive, however, and much closer to the Trace-modified collars in the more subtle way they interact with the shackled person (or it might simply be Tom's worldbuilding evolution at work). Maybe that setting is still a possibility after all, but I don't think it's likely.

We haven't seen conflicting orders be given to a collared or shackled person before. But if this shackle is worth its salt, even if other randoms were allowed to give orders to it — which I doubt — the presence of a higher command level for Clovis strongly suggests that orders from anyone else wouldn't take precedence over orders from Clovis and friends. Perhaps they might if Clovis and friends died and weren't capable of giving conflicting orders. Who knows how these things work? Certainly not us.
If they're on the first floor, going through the window might be the most direct way to the terrace, which is where she was ordered to go.

I can't find the page, but Eric mentioned that Kat's situation was different than Mike and Evals, in that he could directly free her and did

As for the cuff, Zen was the target of it. Having Clovis the only one able to take it off seems natural for him (he is "The Prince of Greed" after all, and it keeps others from stealing "his property"). Given that it seems to be setup to teleport the wearer to wherever Clovis' thugs are camped out, it's obviously not standard issue. Seems to me that Clovis could have had it setup so only himself and certain of his goons could order the wearer around (such as Romulus in this case), but Clovis would likely remove that permission once he chooses to keep the wearer or replace the cuff with a more traditional control collar (so one of his men can't slip the slave a shiv with the order to shank Clovis). Such a control device would be invaluable to a slaver or anyone dealing in a large number of slaves as the owner could set guards/taskmasters as 'allowed" people to give orders while reserving the "right" to remove it for themself.

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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#44 Post by Thomas Rot »

Bellhead wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:31 pm
Tiennos wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:36 am Huh. How long has it been since Zen the assassin has actually offed someone? I think this might be the first time in the comic... Assuming Romulus doesn't survive somehow.
Assassin Brothers Lore story goes that they never actually killed their targets, but each of them died by happenstance when they attacked. So if Zen kills Rom here, it might even be the first time Zen's killed somebody the way he intended.
We may be about to see the curse swing into action yet again: Zen stabs Romulus in the lung, but Rom flails away toward the other side of the room, trips, and dies instead of head injuries sustained after falling out the window. :P
Elemental Templar wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:15 am Although, now I'm starting to get worried as the this page means that
1. Kat is now stuck obeying commands from Clovis (meaning she's in extreme danger)
2. He still has Goons waiting for him outside the manor
3. The manor likely has other defenses that Detritus can throw at people indiscriminately
1. You're right, though Clovis is still unaware of Kat's existence. If things go just right he may never be aware that the shackle ended up on Kat at all.
2. We knew that, sort of — look no further than the still-unseen "boys" accompanying Clovis that dragged Sam "back to the rift". Obviously the trio we saw outside the manor in the beach montage wasn't the full group.
3. The defenses have sprung into action exactly once since we saw Detritus assert control of the manor: when Clovis' gem warded off that zappy turn-intruders-into-livestock thing that presumably got Roan and Sam. They aren't likely to be activated by Kat roaming the hallways (like Sythe did, without interference from the manor), or being around the gardens or terraces (as Sealeen and Landen are currently doing, also without interference from the manor).
aitaituo wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:19 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 2:09 am
Spiffydragon wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:19 am
Him wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:05 am I'm happy to see some competent assassin work from Zen. Ideally this was a one-hit-kill or else Romulus is gonna weaponize Kat or make her harm herself.
A friend of mine actually touched on this, we assume Zen actually is good at his job and struck a vital point; but the opposite might the case; at least I hope so. I doubt Romulus will weaponize Kat, at best, he will tell her to help him and there are many ways to help Romulus that don't involve attacking Zen; including but not limited to grabbing the knife and simply asking Zen to stop. After two decent stabs wounds, most people aren't going to want a third; regardless of how much money is being paid for a job.
Maye he manages to say "help me" and Kat forced by the amulet starts treating him by stopping the bleeding and other first aids.
If Tom wanted to get really grimdark, Romulus' last words could be, "Kill Zen."
In that case Rom would definitely be disobeying orders, not that it would matter with him dying. Clovis did tell him to bring Zen in a presumably alive state.
steelabjur wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:38 am
Eclipse wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:46 pm Romulus mentioned sending her to "his friends". I think he means Brutus and Roan in the dungeons, so things aren't quite going to go according to his plan seeing as one is a roasted pile of bones and the other is dying of poison. But Clovis and Reni are fighting down there, so that's still not a place Kat wants to be right now.
He mentioned the warding around the manor but that once outside "it'll" (meaning the cuff) send her to his friends, so it must have transportation magic built in that'll teleport her. Roan mentioned Sam being turned into a cow and Clovis mentioned that some of his people already took Sam off. Clovis obviously has more goons than he brought with him to the manor holed up somewhere. I suspect that the guards that led away Adira were also his guys in disguise so Riftwall would be empty for them to make their escape.
I interpreted that line differently, and perhaps a bit more simply: once she steps out onto the terrace she'll be within sight of the waypoint that Clovis' group used to get to the manor. The goons who picked up Sam couldn't have physically dragged a cow all the way back to Riftwall; there obviously would be a waypoint somewhere that is still in operation, waiting for Clovis and the twins to return with Zen. Getting Kat to the waypoint would send her back to the rift and to those friends of his. Adding teleportation magic to the list of things this shackle can do seems to be making it OP'd beyond the bounds of reason.
steelabjur wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:38 am If they're on the first floor, going through the window might be the most direct way to the terrace, which is where she was ordered to go.

I can't find the page, but Eric mentioned that Kat's situation was different than Mike and Evals, in that he could directly free her and did

As for the cuff, Zen was the target of it. Having Clovis the only one able to take it off seems natural for him (he is "The Prince of Greed" after all, and it keeps others from stealing "his property"). Given that it seems to be setup to teleport the wearer to wherever Clovis' thugs are camped out, it's obviously not standard issue. Seems to me that Clovis could have had it setup so only himself and certain of his goons could order the wearer around (such as Romulus in this case), but Clovis would likely remove that permission once he chooses to keep the wearer or replace the cuff with a more traditional control collar (so one of his men can't slip the slave a shiv with the order to shank Clovis). Such a control device would be invaluable to a slaver or anyone dealing in a large number of slaves as the owner could set guards/taskmasters as 'allowed" people to give orders while reserving the "right" to remove it for themself.
Remember that the twins climbed a flight of stairs before separating. Kat's room isn't anywhere near the first floor if that's the case. Her line the previous page also sort of implies that the infirmary is on the same floor, just in the next wing, and we did in fact see Keith climb a flight of stairs to get to the infirmary last chapter. (In fact, if you look closely, you'll see that Tom used the same flight of stairs in both scenes.)

Eric, while still on the Na'Rella: "I can free you directly. And I will." He hasn't explicitly confirmed that he did that yet (the man did spend all but a few pages of the Edinmire chapter offscreen). We've only seen him confirming the "freeing" of Mike and Evals later on, and his language doesn't indicate whether he also freed Kat at the time. Though if he did, come to think of it, it might have been under the guise of selling her to Trace as well, so either way…

Makes sense, aside from the issue with the slave-cum-teleportation cuff which I mentioned earlier. Though the last half of that paragraph sort of implies that the cuff is pretty close to an ordinary-issue slave shackle after all, doesn't it? If Clovis found that a commonly used shackle already had all the functions needed to subjugate Zen it doesn't seem likely that he'd go to the trouble of modifying it further. Not that it isn't within Clovis' magical abilities either way. He seems to have been established as knowing enough magic to do soul-bonding but apparently not enough to measure up to the Templars who created his crystal.

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Re: Comic for June 14, 2021: Kathrin in Trouble pt5

#45 Post by steelabjur »

I disagree, the cuff was specifically for getting Zen out, adding function to an already existing item wouldn't be beyond Clovis, and we've seen a goon of his use teleportation (Carver). Your explanation doesn't touch on why he would mention the wards (one of the functions of which is preventing teleportation in or out of the manor).


Regarding Kat, I presume freeing her just required Eric drawing up the proper papers, like the papers Kei presented to Flora at Rifwall. He couldn't free Evals and Mike directly like that because their status was different and the laws prevent him, and technically he shouldn't sell them to Trace because he knows Trace intends to free them (but he decided to put his butt on the line and do it) due to laws Trace had put in place as Grand Templar.

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