Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#121 Post by Bellhead »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:50 amI do agree with Brutus dead there is no more character development for him he already decided he is gonna stay evil no matter the cost. So there is little point, narratively speaking, to keep him alive.
I'm... not so sure.
Spoiler! lots of text
Clovis killed Brutus, because of how close he felt to him. Logically speaking, he had no real reason to, aside from how much Brutus could be used as leverage, but we know nothing at all of Brutus' true strength or skill at fighting. With that in mind, the only reason Clovis really had to kill him was that bond itself. Brutus has proven his loyalty, time and again, and has come to the point where he seemingly lacks any independent thought whatsoever. He's just a single step above a golem; mindless, blindly loyal, and free of complex emotion. It's still my belief that Clovis' true intention here was purely to sever the emotional bond he formed with Brutus, not necessarily to kill the wolf himself. However, since the bond could never be simply removed, the only way to get rid of it would be to kill the other end of it.

That said,I still believe that, given the right circumstances, Clovis could still evolve as a character. It would be rather difficult, both from a writing perspective and from the character's point of view, but possible nonetheless. Currently, his ruthlessness prevented him from keeping the bond he made with Brutus, and the only 'out' for that was to kill him, against his will, which is what we see throughout these two pages: a very emotional, instantly-regretting-this-descision reaction, but one that he nevertheless absolutely had to do, because his broken mind would not allow him to see anything other than "bonds with people are bad, get rid of the bond". Clovis has that mentality, near as I can tell, and it is a major point of character imperfection (pretty sure that's a thing), or mental illness, or some such.

Either way, it's something that his character has the.. Not initiative.. not desire... Goal? No.. *ahem* It's a possible path Tom could choose for him that would give reason for him to stay alive. We still don't know just how badly killing Brutus us going to affect him, what his coping mechanisms will be.. who would notice his grieving, and who would try to help.. Or even whether or not he would get an internal sense of conscience from his grief and guilt in the coming weeks (comic time). Given just how close they obviously were, there has to be some kind of internal fallout on his side from this. I just don't see it happening any other way. How Tom decides to handle him at this point could make his character worth having around a bit longer.
I dunno. Maybe wishful thinking on my part, but I don't think I've ever seen a villain quite like Clovis before. I'm kinda interested to see how it all plays out in the end.
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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#122 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:28 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:50 amI do agree with Brutus dead there is no more character development for him he already decided he is gonna stay evil no matter the cost. So there is little point, narratively speaking, to keep him alive.
I'm... not so sure.
Spoiler! lots of text
Clovis killed Brutus, because of how close he felt to him. Logically speaking, he had no real reason to, aside from how much Brutus could be used as leverage, but we know nothing at all of Brutus' true strength or skill at fighting. With that in mind, the only reason Clovis really had to kill him was that bond itself. Brutus has proven his loyalty, time and again, and has come to the point where he seemingly lacks any independent thought whatsoever. He's just a single step above a golem; mindless, blindly loyal, and free of complex emotion. It's still my belief that Clovis' true intention here was purely to sever the emotional bond he formed with Brutus, not necessarily to kill the wolf himself. However, since the bond could never be simply removed, the only way to get rid of it would be to kill the other end of it.

That said,I still believe that, given the right circumstances, Clovis could still evolve as a character. It would be rather difficult, both from a writing perspective and from the character's point of view, but possible nonetheless. Currently, his ruthlessness prevented him from keeping the bond he made with Brutus, and the only 'out' for that was to kill him, against his will, which is what we see throughout these two pages: a very emotional, instantly-regretting-this-descision reaction, but one that he nevertheless absolutely had to do, because his broken mind would not allow him to see anything other than "bonds with people are bad, get rid of the bond". Clovis has that mentality, near as I can tell, and it is a major point of character imperfection (pretty sure that's a thing), or mental illness, or some such.

Either way, it's something that his character has the.. Not initiative.. not desire... Goal? No.. *ahem* It's a possible path Tom could choose for him that would give reason for him to stay alive. We still don't know just how badly killing Brutus us going to affect him, what his coping mechanisms will be.. who would notice his grieving, and who would try to help.. Or even whether or not he would get an internal sense of conscience from his grief and guilt in the coming weeks (comic time). Given just how close they obviously were, there has to be some kind of internal fallout on his side from this. I just don't see it happening any other way. How Tom decides to handle him at this point could make his character worth having around a bit longer.
I dunno. Maybe wishful thinking on my part, but I don't think I've ever seen a villain quite like Clovis before. I'm kinda interested to see how it all plays out in the end.
Interesting
Spoiler!
So your idea is like the grief and guilt of killing the only person that genuinely cared for him is too much to him and either breaks him or makes him change?

This reminded me of a theory i had. Trace despite being objectively worse than Clovis got a chance at redemption, well he got that shoved at him despite not wanting to but that is beyond my point. He got a chance at correcting his life he likely did not deserve nor wanted to. It would be a bit dissonant if Clovis did not at least get a similar chance.

I am not sure with the current events thought. Most of us do not like Clovis, and that is by design Tom did a really good job at making a despicable villain. And he would likely reject any chance offered to him.

That being said a possibility of redemption is that at the end of the chapter after the manor comes crashing down Clovis survives but the ordeal actually makes him amnesiac and turns him into a girl again disfigures him. No one recognizes him and can't remember anything. He could eventually piece his old life back together and, as Trace, try to correct some of the horrors he inflicted on his past life.

I mean I would prefer if we defined close Clovis story this chapter with a funeral bow but him surviving is an interesting idea nonetheless.
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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#123 Post by Rasol »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:50 am We have a amnesiac necromancer with his failed diy Alexa/siri experiment conducting some eldritch ritual.

There are no shortage of terrible horrible way for Clovis to end just in the manor. Pretty sure he will at least kick the bucket at best or end up bound to the state at worse. I will be a bit disappointed if he just walks away.

I do agree with Brutus dead there is no more character development for him he already decided he is gonna stay evil no matter the cost. So there is little point, narratively speaking, to keep him alive.

That being said if he manages to leave it would be ironic if his third in command cassius finds out he killed his friend brutus and get clovis men to revolt and kill him.
I don't think that Brutus' death is the end of Clovis character arc. There is a LOT to explore about the "Prince of Greed".

One does not come into a situation where they believe they cannot afford to have friends or loved ones lightly. Even greedy men have friends, and people they care about. Greedy men will seek to KEEP what they believe is theirs. Clovis did NOT do that. One could argue he did very much the opposite of that. He threw away a valuable asset, because the thought he might care for Brutus scared him TOO much.

Clovis COULD give us an interesting look into some of the darker parts of keidran society. Into just HOW broken the world is outside of just how bad Trace used to be. We've been given hints of it before, but seeing what drives somebody to become like Clovis could give us some better insight.

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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#124 Post by Yastreb »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:39 am So your idea is like the grief and guilt of killing the only person that genuinely cared for him is too much to him and either breaks him or makes him change?

This reminded me of a theory i had. Trace despite being objectively worse than Clovis got a chance at redemption, well he got that shoved at him despite not wanting to but that is beyond my point. He got a chance at correcting his life he likely did not deserve nor wanted to. It would be a bit dissonant if Clovis did not at least get a similar chance.

I am not sure with the current events thought. Most of us do not like Clovis, and that is by design Tom did a really good job at making a despicable villain. And he would likely reject any chance offered to him.

That being said a possibility of redemption is that at the end of the chapter after the manor comes crashing down Clovis survives but the ordeal actually makes him amnesiac and turns him into a girl again disfigures him. No one recognizes him and can't remember anything. He could eventually piece his old life back together and, as Trace, try to correct some of the horrors he inflicted on his past life.

I mean I would prefer if we defined close Clovis story this chapter with a funeral bow but him surviving is an interesting idea nonetheless.
You could argue that post-amnesia Trace is a different person than the old one and it would thus be unfair anyway to judge him for what he did before because his personality changed so complitely.

I don't think Clovis or anyone else for that matter will get amnesia again. Wouldn't that be a bit repetitive?

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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#125 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Yastreb wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:43 pm
Technic[Bot] wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:39 am So your idea is like the grief and guilt of killing the only person that genuinely cared for him is too much to him and either breaks him or makes him change?

This reminded me of a theory i had. Trace despite being objectively worse than Clovis got a chance at redemption, well he got that shoved at him despite not wanting to but that is beyond my point. He got a chance at correcting his life he likely did not deserve nor wanted to. It would be a bit dissonant if Clovis did not at least get a similar chance.

I am not sure with the current events thought. Most of us do not like Clovis, and that is by design Tom did a really good job at making a despicable villain. And he would likely reject any chance offered to him.

That being said a possibility of redemption is that at the end of the chapter after the manor comes crashing down Clovis survives but the ordeal actually makes him amnesiac and turns him into a girl again disfigures him. No one recognizes him and can't remember anything. He could eventually piece his old life back together and, as Trace, try to correct some of the horrors he inflicted on his past life.

I mean I would prefer if we defined close Clovis story this chapter with a funeral bow but him surviving is an interesting idea nonetheless.
You could argue that post-amnesia Trace is a different person than the old one and it would thus be unfair anyway to judge him for what he did before because his personality changed so complitely.

I don't think Clovis or anyone else for that matter will get amnesia again. Wouldn't that be a bit repetitive?
I think previous and current Trace are essentially the same but the latter does not have so much grief covering his judgement.

But I agree Clovis getting redeemed by amnesia is not something i would like to see, nor is it where I think the story will go. Just wanted to point out that possibility.
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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#126 Post by FireworkFox »

This has greatly changed my opinion on Clovis. And my soul needs a medic.
Poor Brutus (;_;)
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