Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

[Iron Ed]

I reeeeally loathe Clovis these days.

[SangheiliSpecOp]

Yeesh, what's with all the gnashing of teeth and proclamations that they're dropping the comic? Because a character died? People have been dying throughout the comic's run. This isn't some sudden turn to grimdark, this is literally how the comic's been running for a decade.

Yeah I'm not quite understanding that either. One does not simply stop reading TwoKinds though.

[Zaigan]

As for a character death, I'll add in that one instance in that book I read in high school (Very specific, I know. I forgot the name.) where there were two characters, a tall, strong, dumb guy and a relatively normal one. The normal one was forced to kill the big guy by other people, did so while the guy was smiling, and pulled the trigger with tears in his eyes. To save himself, he reported that it was self defense to gain their trust. Sad, brutal.. but not an unreasonable circumstance. There was just no other option there. Anyone remember that book? I'm curious now.

You said in High School, so maybe Of Mice and Men? We never actually read that one, but I think something like that happens at the end of that book.

I agree with everything you said up until that point. They say villains are the heroes of their own untold tragedy. Like, in the genre sense of the word. Granted in Clovis's situation it's a bit harder to see how his flaws could have been a good trait, but his dedication and drive pushes him to make decisions that will ultimately lead to his downfall.

This was really his last opportunity to get off this train and he just disabled the breaks. Choo Choo full speed ahead for the out of commission bridge.

His earlier opportunities might have been the experience of being turned into a woman, for a moment to reflect and gain some understanding of another's life.

[Candycat]

This is very Thanos-like of Clovis to do. I hope he gets what's coming to him.

[Rafe]

...As for a character death, I'll add in that one instance in that book I read in high school (Very specific, I know. I forgot the name.) where there were two characters, a tall, strong, dumb guy and a relatively normal one. The normal one was forced to kill the big guy by other people, did so while the guy was smiling, and pulled the trigger with tears in his eyes. To save himself, he reported that it was self defense to gain their trust. Sad, brutal.. but not an unreasonable circumstance. There was just no other option there. Anyone remember that book? I'm curious now.

You must be talking about Of Mice and Men, by John Stienbeck. In that novel, George and Lenny are inseparable friends, working as farmhands. Big, strong but, simple-minded Lenny accidently kills the slutty wife of his boss when she tries to get him in trouble. George can't stand to see Lenny captured and probably executed for rape and murder, so he finds him first, and shoots him in the back of the head as a mercy-killing.

It was made into a movie in 1939, with Burgess Meredith as George and Lon Chaney Jr. as Lenny. Almost immediately, Warner Brothers came up with cartoon characters based on George and Lenny (George, a fox, and Willoughby, a dog) and put them in "Of Fox and Hounds" Check it out here:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5vv3te



This came up on the Comic Discussion earlier in this story arc, when Mike and Evals wee discussing their future. I imagined them becoming itinerant workers like George and Lenny, staying together in tough times. then I flashed back to the fact that they were a dog and a fox, as in the WB cartoon, and before I knew it, I'd done this:



I'm sorry if I put the image of a teary-eyed Mike shooting Evals in the head into anyone's mind.

EDIT: And now it just hit me - we have almost the same thing again, except Clovis is the fox (well, fox/wolf), and Brutus is the big, trusting, dim-witted dog (even if he is a wolf). Maybe somewhere in Tom's mind he's connecting with old WB cartoons.

[Bellhead]

You said in High School, so maybe Of Mice and Men? We never actually read that one, but I think something like that happens at the end of that book.

I agree with everything you said up until that point. They say villains are the heroes of their own untold tragedy. Like, in the genre sense of the word. Granted in Clovis's situation it's a bit harder to see how his flaws could have been a good trait, but his dedication and drive pushes him to make decisions that will ultimately lead to his downfall.
-snip-
His earlier opportunities might have been the experience of being turned into a woman, for a moment to reflect and gain some understanding of another's life.

I believe that was it, yes. Sounds right, anyway. And yeah, I'm fairly certain that was Nora's intention when she cursed him.

To be clear, I never meant to say that the traits he's shown are in any way to be considered "good", just that they were effective in achieving the goals he set for himself, and were reasonable given his character and history.

And the main point I wanted to make, since I'm not confident I explained it very well, is this: Clovis is a well-written villain. He doesn't have to be redeemable to not be one-sided, and his "good" traits don't have to be dominant for him to have a "good" side. He's fully capable of being Pure Evil without being one-dimensional, and he's playing the part of "Irredeemable Multi-Dimensional Villain" quite well, which isn't always easy to portray. I'll sing praise to Tom for a WHILE for how well he's made me hate Clovis here; not just on the surface, but I actually relate to him in his choice here, sorry as it is to say. It's gut-wrenching, don't get me wrong. But I used to be quite the loner, so I get it. I really do. When you're like that, your mind gets a little counter-intuitive; care for others is in and of itself, bad. Not the people, but the feelings themselves. The more they care for you, the more they drag you down. Seeing Clovis act that out... It's as much a testament to how damaged and broken he is, as it is to how evil he's become.

Well played Tom. Well played. No offense, but I kinda hate you for that. Just a bit.

[aitaituo]

Brutus has never had much appeal to me. He's a big talking dog, literally and figuratively. He had zero depth and zero development, even in the Patreon sketches. If you liked him, you must really be a dog person. While I also do not begin to understand Clovis' motivation, unless it's really just killing anyone he has an emotional connection to because of his compulsive desire to never be vulnerable.

Character deaths have actually been few and far between in the comic so far. You can count the number of notable characters that have died on one hand, and they've all been in two chapters (this one and Chapter 11). There are grimdark moments in the comic, but it usually isn't this dark and hasn't been for a long while, and the rarity of a character death makes each one notable.

This is the second out of three story arcs that ended with death. Arguably, the first story arc also ended in a death, with the revelation that Saria was a ghost all along and then her final departure to the afterlife. A bunch of characters died in the Basitin Isles arc.

[Project_Demise]

It's sad that Brutus was killed, but Clovis on the previous page made his intentions very clear. But he gave Brutus a death that was quick and, presumably, painless. Because for someone like Clovis, having someone he loves as much or more than himself is a liability. He was a weakness that could be exploited. I've seen worse death scenes in other comics and books.

[Xian]

Okay, I'm officially triggered: Clovis needs a very slow, incredibly painful, horribly agonizing death. He needs to be skinned, eviscerated, de-boned, cooked and eaten by rats while alive and conscious...

I think it is because unlike the other Keidran, which I perceive as people in furry suits, I perceive Brutus as a talking dog, and I love dogs. And I hate people who hurt dogs...

[Technic[Bot]]

-snip-

He clearly had some serious reservations about his actions, and this shows his level of character in a way that could not well be shown otherwise. From his perspective, he HAD to. There was just no other option. Everything he's done up to this point; all the people he's hired, the jobs he's done, the crimes he's committed.. they've all been for the sole explicit purpose of his own self-indulgence and his own personal vendettas. His emotional side sees Brutus as the closest he's ever had to family, while his crime boss side sees that side as weak; something that can be easily manipulated. It was his own emotional attachment that likely forced him to enter the manor in person, and he realized that the presence of one single person made him put himself in that much danger. That person obviously had to go, in his mind. Self-preservation: Remove any source of enemy leverage. He knows how many enemies he has. He's been suppressing those emotions so long that when they finally surface, he's forced to silence them. He's a true psychopath, not just some generic villain. He doesn't need to be redeemable to be a good villain, he just needs to be understandable, and reasonable from his own standpoint, which I feel Clovis has covered very well.

-snap-

First I disagree on the psychopath part. If he were a psycopath eh would be unable to feel anything for Brutus and would have simple left him to die of be executed by the twins. Or at the very least he would have not felt any sort of emotional backlash once he killed him.

But I agree completely on your second point, I had trouble explaining why Clovis struck me as a bland villain and at the same time how he did not needed to be morally good or redeemable on some way to be a good villain. But you hit the nail and explained it in succinct and effective manner.

-snips-

I agree with everything you said up until that point. They say villains are the heroes of their own untold tragedy. Like, in the genre sense of the word. Granted in Clovis's situation it's a bit harder to see how his flaws could have been a good trait, but his dedication and drive pushes him to make decisions that will ultimately lead to his downfall.

This was really his last opportunity to get off this train and he just disabled the breaks. Choo Choo full speed ahead for the out of commission bridge.

His earlier opportunities might have been the experience of being turned into a woman, for a moment to reflect and gain some understanding of another's life.

Also this, Clovis had more than one chance to get on the right path. First after the curse, which i am fairly certain would have broken itself had he changed. And now with Brutus, once he realized what he felt for him was real. Instead of changing if only for the Good boy sake He choose to get rid of him. The importan part here is that he had chances to change but he choose not to despite conflicting . That is what makes him an interesting villain as both you, Bell and the others point out. He has humanity and is capable of goodness but he choose to be evil regardless.

Brutus has never had much appeal to me. He's a big talking dog, literally and figuratively. He had zero depth and zero development, even in the Patreon sketches. If you liked him, you must really be a dog person. While I also do not begin to understand Clovis' motivation, unless it's really just killing anyone he has an emotional connection to because of his compulsive desire to never be vulnerable.

- more cuts-

I would not be surprised if the average Twokinds fan is more of a dog person.
Regardless I am surprised Brutus as a character got very popular very fast. Despite his limited screen time. I am gonna say it is Tom characterization that managed to sell us the big dumb good boy in a matter of a couple pages. Oh a yes i think he simply wanted to remove anything that made him feel vulnerable.

I am also a bit surprised of the impact Brutus death had since, again, he is not a particularly important character. But at least here it seems it garnered quite the emotional response, positive or otherwise. And a cursory look at the twitter post show most people got a bit affected by the good boy death. It even got me a little (RIP Brutus you deserved better ) perhaps more than I am willing to admit. I did not signed up for these "feels" when i started to read this fantasy rom-com!
If this is in the grand scheme of the comic, a minor death. I am not sure how we are gonna handle larger losses.

[Jae]

I came here to express my feelings toward this comic... and all I have is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZJrP8qeFhc

[Chicken Man]

To be fair Brutus was shown with a desire to eat a chicken so he deserved it. They all do. The chickens will rise!

Arise chicken.

Chicken arise!

[SomeBody]

As far as Brutus being a Good Boy...

Dude was Clovis's right hand, and is literally one of the people who just burnt a village to the ground. He's big, dumb, and loyal. I don't think there's anything that implies he is, in a general sense, nice.

[Eclipse]

Okay but... is Brutus actually a notable character? I certainly don't think so. He's featured in lots of Tom's Patreon/non-canon work, but I'm pretty sure that's just fans latching on to a character, plus Tom liking the dynamic with Clovis. I would have put most of the people who died in the Bastion arc into the same character-importance category.

While he might be one of my favorite characters in the story, I find it hard to call him a notable character yet. All we have really seen for character development is he is on the "evil" side, and is a bit of a doofus that just blindly follows orders. He has been in maybe 10-15 pages, and a few of those as an entirely unidentified combatant/prisoner. So really his character development only begins once we see him in his cell. Hard for me to call a character we see entirely live and die in a single room to be notable (granted there is a chance he doesn't actually die here, I see allot of merit in the theory he will be left for dead but quickly saved)

I mean, he hasn't appeared a whole lot in the main canon, yeah, but he's appeared in a lot of side sketches and he at least has a name unlike generic Basitin General #23. So in that sense, I would call him "notable". And there really haven't been a lot of characters on that level of importance that have died. Laura, Alaric, Randall, Roan, and now maybe Brutus. That's it.

Character deaths have actually been few and far between in the comic so far. You can count the number of notable characters that have died on one hand, and they've all been in two chapters (this one and Chapter 11). There are grimdark moments in the comic, but it usually isn't this dark and hasn't been for a long while, and the rarity of a character death makes each one notable.

This is the second out of three story arcs that ended with death. Arguably, the first story arc also ended in a death, with the revelation that Saria was a ghost all along and then her final departure to the afterlife. A bunch of characters died in the Basitin Isles arc.

Three? It's just been the Basitin Island arc and this one, what's the third one? The one with Saria and Ephemural? That doesn't count, because Saria was already dead, she didn't actually die.

[Chicken Man]

"It's okay, some villains are just irridemable piles of [censored]"
Yeah that's my favorite part of web comics, the parts that make me hate the [censored] out of it and not want to read it anymore. It's right up there with artists who take a month to update

Do not bypass the swear filter.
~Hayate

First of all...

there's a swear filter?


Second of all leave Tom R.R. Martin, I mean Fischbach alone. The Basitin arc is a masterpiece!

Tom is starting to slow down a bit, I'll grant but he's been on this comic for over a decade. Most bands will take a hiatus. Life and age has a way of getting in the way. Maybe he's battling depression or something, too. If so I'm glad we're getting anything.

Seriously, though, we try to keep it light here. The forums are a bit inactive so new members are welcome and encouraged to post but please keep it respectful. Of the comic and others as well. And please don't start fights with the moderators. Though I laugh at people's posts that got them banned I would like to see these forums pick up. Remember you're in someone else house so please follow the rules.