Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#16 Post by whattheactual »

Well that was a [censored] way to end a comic, never coming back to this [censored] rag again

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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#17 Post by Sky Shatter »

WELP. I stand corrected.

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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#18 Post by stlsf4003 »

Well then.....It's not the way I had envisioned it happening but he did it, the [censored] did it!

Now if some could gladly drop an A bomb on Clovis to make up for it, that would be wonderful!

On another note. If tom keeps this up, this chapters gonna have highest body count of the series! May even surpass the Basitin Island arc!

(much salt there is, in this thread)
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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#19 Post by MuonNeutrino »

Dadrobit wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:59 pmTK has a lot of fighting/violence, but I feel for the last number of years that it's been almost entirely "A-Team" violence, (lots of shooting, but nobody ever dies) so it's felt very, very low-stakes ... it feels like it's help reset some of those expectations of safety.

Of course, if Brutus pulls a Nibbly and isn't actually dead.... well, this is kinda mostly rescinded. I'd be pretty sour if he did.
I generally agree, though not quite completely. Since the island things have pulled back in that regard, and the feeling of imminent danger indeed hasn't really been present for the most part. I don't think I disapprove of how it's gone *prior* to this point, though. Narratively speaking I think it makes sense that after the massive climax of the island arc it should take a while for things to build back up to that level of danger again. As a result I'm not really that fussed over nobody having died since then - I wouldn't have criticized it if someone *had* bit the dust during the earlier parts of the post-ship buildup, e.g. if Tom had decided to kill Adira after all during the attack on the town perhaps, but I don't think it was necessary or a major flaw that it didn't happen. But at some point things do have to get serious again, and it feels like we have definitely reached that point in a narrative sense. This is all building up very obviously and ominously, and at *this* point it *would* feel like something of a cop-out if everything just worked out fine. Narratively I don't think you can build it up this much and then *not* have some sort of painful sacrifice involved in resolving it. Someone's gonna get it.

However, I don't necessarily feel that it *has* to be Brutus. We've already gotten the establishing character moment where Clovis proves he's willing to barbeque disobedient minions (and Roan at least is definitely not coming back, so that's one undeniable casualty already) as well as sacrifice someone he's genuinely friends with for his own sake. If it wasn't for Roan, then I'd say Brutus has to stay dead. And if Brutus doesn't stay dead *and* everything else turns out fine, then that'd also be a narrative problem I think. But I'm personally still expecting more casualties along the way. For one, at this point I'm almost taking it as a given that part of the resolution of this will be Rose finally being allowed to pass on somehow. Now, she's technically *already* dead, so that might still be a bit empty, but it's still something. But beyond that, it still feels like someone else is going to bite the dust somewhere along the way - someone more important than Brutus, I'd think - and if that happens then I don't think Brutus' particular fate going either way would be a cop-out in the long run, especially if it's to set up a future conflict if Clovis ends up as a returning antagonist in the future.

Also, sheesh, people. You'd think this comic had never killed off a character before or something. Cute and fuzzy as our favorite furballs and their antics are, Mekkan is not a nice place by our standards, and bad things happen there sometimes.
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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#20 Post by Rasol »

sotanaht wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:11 pm I for one and VERY glad this happened. The last thing I wanted was some hamfisted attempt to "redeem" clovis to the readers via some gay romance.
Yep. Not every villain should be redeemed. Not every villain needs to be sympathetic.
Just like in life, some people are horrible, greedy, selfish monsters.
Clovis has never been a good person. He's never cared for ANYONE but himself. The non-canon patreon comics aside.
He isn't a templar, or a dragon, or some top-tier Basitin general. Clovis isn't meant to be dangerous because of what he CAN do. Clovis is horrifying because of what he is WILLING to do; to gain, and to keep power for himself.

And that makes him more compelling as a villain.

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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#21 Post by Insomniac »

MuonNeutrino wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:51 pm I'm not gonna say 'I told you so' (partly because I didn't actually express it in a post :wink:), but yup, this is pretty much what I was expecting. Clovis is evil, simple as that. He's not sympathetic, he's not misunderstood, he doesn't have a tragic backstory or a perhaps-understandable cause he's simply pursuing in a regrettable way. This is actually a neat way to portray it in that it shows he's also still a person with emotions rather than just being a cardboard cutout villain, but he still is a villain. And honestly this makes his villainy even more chilling. Cartoonish villainy that's just faceless minions, one-liners, and evil laughter is easy to dismiss. This is deeper than that. This is villainy that knows what it's doing, counts the cost, and is willing to sacrifice its own loved ones that it genuinely cares about for the sake of its own selfish goals. Clovis cares enough to go to the trouble of finding a painless method. He cares enough to spend the last few seconds he will ever have with his victim - his friend - deliberately distracting and reassuring him so that those final moments are not only not horrific, but even as close to happy as possible under the circumstances. He cares enough to genuinely mourn the loss. He cares enough to drive him to by a *mile* the most out-of-character display we've ever seen from him. And he still does it, because ultimately to him those considerations just don't matter. Because his selfishness and need for control run so deep that any chink in the armor whatsoever is simply unacceptable, no matter the cost. It's evil at its worst, because it's evil that is human rather than some faceless abstract.

On a related note, however, I have a suspicion. Clovis is presumably going to be leaving the dungeons now. Reni is on her way to the dungeons. Brutus was poisoned, not stabbed or shot or incinerated or blown up. Reni's already healed him once. Bets on Reni getting there in time to save him again? Because if we're wanting to turn this already incredibly important character moment into something even more significant down the road, Brutus eventually waking up to discover what Clovis did, and Clovis eventually having to deal with the fallout from that down the road, would be quite a thing.
I agree completely with this post, including the second part.
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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#22 Post by whattheactual »

"It's okay, some villains are just irridemable piles of [censored]"
Yeah that's my favorite part of web comics, the parts that make me hate the [censored] out of it and not want to read it anymore. It's right up there with artists who take a month to update

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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#23 Post by MuonNeutrino »

Rasol wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:41 pm Yep. Not every villain should be redeemed. Not every villain needs to be sympathetic.
Just like in life, some people are horrible, greedy, selfish monsters.
Clovis has never been a good person. He's never cared for ANYONE but himself. The non-canon patreon comics aside.
He isn't a templar, or a dragon, or some top-tier Basitin general. Clovis isn't meant to be dangerous because of what he CAN do. Clovis is horrifying because of what he is WILLING to do; to gain, and to keep power for himself.

And that makes him more compelling as a villain.
Thank you for summing up my thoughts on the topic in a much more concise form than my usual verbose walls of text. :grin:
whattheactual wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:47 pm "It's okay, some villains are just irridemable piles of [censored]"
Yeah that's my favorite part of web comics, the parts that make me hate the [censored] out of it and not want to read it anymore. It's right up there with artists who take a month to update
I don't think that's fair. In twokinds, so far most of the villains have still been sympathetic in some way, including the main character himself. Even here Clovis still shows a moment of vulnerability that could make one feel a bit sorry for him even as he steps across the moral event horizon. But not all evil people can be redeemed. I'm sorry you don't like the comic choosing to reflect reality in this particular way here, and I sympathize if you feel you can't enjoy the comic anymore. (And yes, Tom's update schedule has slipped a bit of late, but it's still not monthly by any means.) But if you've already made up your mind and you can't remain civil on the topic, perhaps you should spare both us and yourself some grief and step away from the keyboard for a bit.
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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#24 Post by stlsf4003 »

whattheactual wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:47 pm "It's okay, some villains are just irridemable piles of [censored]"
Yeah that's my favorite part of web comics, the parts that make me hate the [censored] out of it and not want to read it anymore. It's right up there with artists who take a month to update
You haven't read to many webcomics (or books in general) have you?

This kind of thing to happens all the time once you get out of children's literature.
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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#25 Post by Alvin-Earthworm »

stlsf4003 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:59 pm You haven't read to many webcomics (or books in general) have you?

This kind of thing to happens all the time once you get out of children's literature.
It happens all the time because it's the most lowbrow, laziest and generic way to add tragedy and shock value to a story.
And Tom is really scraping the bottom of the barrel if he's using The Force Awakens as his inspiration.

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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#26 Post by Zaigan »

Well yeah, Clovis basically seals his fate with this. It was the Rubicon for him. His last chance to embrace his... well for lack of a better word "humanity." A positive bond or emotion. He did give Brutus a gentle death, but he chose to make the wrong decision.

This does mean when Clovis eventually dies we won't feel sorry for him. If he had chosen to save and protect Brutus, then despite all of the terrible things he'd done some might want to see an ending where Clovis is redeemed enough to turn over a new leaf with him. We can see this in some of the Patreon modern era works. Canon Clovis though, will have earned his bad end.

I don't know if one can say if it's good or bad to have either outcome. They're both incredibly common because really, those are about the only two choices you have. There's value in humanizing your villains and value in having a campy evil one too. Clovis does seem like he struggled with this, which does show character depth. He considered the choice he was making and chose ultimately to make the wrong decision when he had the out.

Does anyone else feel like the comic is almost over? I mean after they kill Clovis, Detritus/face Trace's past they are a hop, skip and jump to the hippy land of interspecies love. It seems like it would all be denumount (sp?).

I'm not sure if Reni will revive Brutus. She might just find him dead to realize how everything is going to rubbish. Was the green supposed to represent poison? I figured it was some sort of avada kedavra esque spell. Maybe though.

It is a bit weird though that Clovis said no one had to come with him because he was going to have his right hand wolf again soon. He probably made the decision to euthanize Brutus after he realized just how intense the feels were. Maybe he was expecting to have some mastery over them when he found Brutus, and when that was not the case he felt he needed to make this decision.
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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#27 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Well this is one of those moments when I hate I was right :(

Requiescat In Pace Brutus you deserved better.

Also we are not gonna get our "Et tu Brutus moment" now. As If this was not bad enough already.
Thought this may be a reverse Caesar assassination. Instead of Brutus betraying Ceasar, Ceasar/Clovis kills Brutus out of pity/compassion.
MuonNeutrino wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:51 pm I'm not gonna say 'I told you so' (partly because I didn't actually express it in a post :wink:), but yup, this is pretty much what I was expecting. Clovis is evil, simple as that. He's not sympathetic, he's not misunderstood, he doesn't have a tragic backstory or a perhaps-understandable cause he's simply pursuing in a regrettable way. This is actually a neat way to portray it in that it shows he's also still a person with emotions rather than just being a cardboard cutout villain, but he still is a villain. And honestly this makes his villainy even more chilling. Cartoonish villainy that's just faceless minions, one-liners, and evil laughter is easy to dismiss. This is deeper than that. This is villainy that knows what it's doing, counts the cost, and is willing to sacrifice its own loved ones that it genuinely cares about for the sake of its own selfish goals. Clovis cares enough to go to the trouble of finding a painless method. He cares enough to spend the last few seconds he will ever have with his victim - his friend - deliberately distracting and reassuring him so that those final moments are not only not horrific, but even as close to happy as possible under the circumstances. He cares enough to genuinely mourn the loss. He cares enough to drive him to by a *mile* the most out-of-character display we've ever seen from him. And he still does it, because ultimately to him those considerations just don't matter. Because his selfishness and need for control run so deep that any chink in the armor whatsoever is simply unacceptable, no matter the cost. It's evil at its worst, because it's evil that is human rather than some faceless abstract.

On a related note, however, I have a suspicion. Clovis is presumably going to be leaving the dungeons now. Reni is on her way to the dungeons. Brutus was poisoned, not stabbed or shot or incinerated or blown up. Reni's already healed him once. Bets on Reni getting there in time to save him again? Because if we're wanting to turn this already incredibly important character moment into something even more significant down the road, Brutus eventually waking up to discover what Clovis did, and Clovis eventually having to deal with the fallout from that down the road, would be quite a thing.
My problem with Clovis is/was that he seemed like a cartoon villain. Evil for evil sake, no he did not needed a tragic backstory or being sympathetic or something similar. Just a better reason for being evil than: "we required a villain to off in this chapter" but now that you put it that way. He is still evil, but as you said, he cares, and even then he is evil. As you said "human evil" not some cheap caricature.

Also if Reni revives Brutus we may still have our Roman magnicide later!
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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#28 Post by stlsf4003 »

Alvin-Earthworm wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:05 pm
stlsf4003 wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:59 pm You haven't read to many webcomics (or books in general) have you?

This kind of thing to happens all the time once you get out of children's literature.
It happens all the time because it's the most lowbrow, laziest and generic way to add tragedy and shock value to a story.
And Tom is really scraping the bottom of the barrel if he's using The Force Awakens as his inspiration.
OK.....how is this related to solo's death?

I just watched that scene and I can tell you that they are nothing alike.

One is a father trying to mend the gap with his (unstable) sun and getting run through by said nutter for his troubles and the son not looking even the least bit fazed by it.

The other is a crime boss having to put down one his closest men due to a repressed emotional link he has for him, and if that last panel is any indication it was a hard choice for him to make.
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#29 Post by Hayate »

I’d just like to encourage everyone to take a few deep breaths before posting. Let’s keep the discussion civil and mature, please.

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Re: Comic for February 7, 2021: Poisonous Friendship

#30 Post by Ainoko Ironrose »

MuonNeutrino wrote: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:51 pm I'm not gonna say 'I told you so' (partly because I didn't actually express it in a post :wink:), but yup, this is pretty much what I was expecting. Clovis is evil, simple as that. He's not sympathetic, he's not misunderstood, he doesn't have a tragic backstory or a perhaps-understandable cause he's simply pursuing in a regrettable way. This is actually a neat way to portray it in that it shows he's also still a person with emotions rather than just being a cardboard cutout villain, but he still is a villain. And honestly this makes his villainy even more chilling. Cartoonish villainy that's just faceless minions, one-liners, and evil laughter is easy to dismiss. This is deeper than that. This is villainy that knows what it's doing, counts the cost, and is willing to sacrifice its own loved ones that it genuinely cares about for the sake of its own selfish goals. Clovis cares enough to go to the trouble of finding a painless method. He cares enough to spend the last few seconds he will ever have with his victim - his friend - deliberately distracting and reassuring him so that those final moments are not only not horrific, but even as close to happy as possible under the circumstances. He cares enough to genuinely mourn the loss. He cares enough to drive him to by a *mile* the most out-of-character display we've ever seen from him. And he still does it, because ultimately to him those considerations just don't matter. Because his selfishness and need for control run so deep that any chink in the armor whatsoever is simply unacceptable, no matter the cost. It's evil at its worst, because it's evil that is human rather than some faceless abstract.

On a related note, however, I have a suspicion. Clovis is presumably going to be leaving the dungeons now. Reni is on her way to the dungeons. Brutus was poisoned, not stabbed or shot or incinerated or blown up. Reni's already healed him once. Bets on Reni getting there in time to save him again? Because if we're wanting to turn this already incredibly important character moment into something even more significant down the road, Brutus eventually waking up to discover what Clovis did, and Clovis eventually having to deal with the fallout from that down the road, would be quite a thing.
I honestly think that Remi will save Brutus' life and in turn, he will fight against Clovis.

Clovis is making some big mistakes...

1. Leaving Brutus' body for Remi to find and heal.
2. Leaving witnesses who will in turn begin to betray him.

And yes I know he killed Roan.
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