Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#16 Post by CrRAR »

MuonNeutrino wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:20 am All dat -snip-
Agreed, and to top all these nefarious acts off, there is a hint in this very page about getting Sam “back to the rift”. Unconfirmed, but I’m assuming that indicates Clovis’ culpability in seizure of Riftwall tavern as a strategic yet clandestine headquarters for his terroristic operations.

In my book, no one messes with Adira (or Raine or Natani) and stays on any list even involving redemption of some sort. Clovis deserves to go the way of Clayton in Tarzan; bringing about his own demise in a crazed fit of his own self-indulgence.

Eclipse wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:57 pmAlso, Clovis just let slip a hint about his gender problems. Luckily for him though, Brutus is too dense to pick up on it and Roan is likely dead.
Not to mention his particular language is not flattering and only serves to renforce the opinions and contempt toward his situation and view of women we’ve heard before. “Being stuck with udders” though appropriate to the situation’s discussion about Sam, speaks to Clovis’ current predicament and impresses me as both insulting and condescending speak for his opinion of the form he finds his current natural self. Like as if it’s a lesser thing.
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#17 Post by Kelden »

It feels to me like this is less a display of blatant power-tripping and more a case of "**** you, you defied my orders. The guy who turned into a cow can be useful as one. You're not so lucky."

Zero tolerance for going against your Master's word. You do NOT cross Clovis, and we just saw why. The real question is, is Brutus aware of this side of Clovis and is merely caught off-guard by the immediate execution? Or is Brutus genuinely surprised to see Clovis' vicious, unforgiving nature?

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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#18 Post by Tetrahedron »

OK, maybe, or even for sure, my knowledge is limited in this topic, but something still bothers me:
I have always the feeling, leading "evil" organisations does not work like this. Be it here Clovis, or in villains in many other media.
Please forgive me, I will use very big examples now:
Look at the powerful dictators of the 20th century. They killed millions. But they never did it on their own. They did not walk in their headquarters and shoot some disobeying general. For a strange reason this does not work. Of course, people vanished in prisons, got executed, and so on for disloyalty, but never directly.
To hold power, and be cruel and insane fanatic, you have to institutionalise (is this a word in English?) the killing.
This has two effects: Your subordinates can not directly connect the "execution" with you. Of course, you give the order, but it is the will of the party, the organisation, etc. The dirty work is done somewhere on a death march far away. Second effect: People are more willing to do cruel things. Our great master gave us the order, all my comrades obey, so do I.

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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#19 Post by Bellhead »

That makes sense in real life, I'll give you that. But in most other media I've seen, the leader or "main psychopath" will usually do the killing themselves, but only when the target is alone with no witnesses.

And something just occurred to me: "See how he likes it." Does this imply that Sam had discovered his secret? Yeah, probably not, since he's still alive. More than likely, though, I'd bet he was just openly spouting sexist nonsense one day and Clovis didn't say anything for fear of being found out, or supporting women in general. Either way, it's an odd choice of words for this situation for him.
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#20 Post by Yastreb »

Tetrahedron wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:56 pm OK, maybe, or even for sure, my knowledge is limited in this topic, but something still bothers me:
I have always the feeling, leading "evil" organisations does not work like this. Be it here Clovis, or in villains in many other media.
Please forgive me, I will use very big examples now:
Look at the powerful dictators of the 20th century. They killed millions. But they never did it on their own. They did not walk in their headquarters and shoot some disobeying general. For a strange reason this does not work. Of course, people vanished in prisons, got executed, and so on for disloyalty, but never directly.
To hold power, and be cruel and insane fanatic, you have to institutionalise (is this a word in English?) the killing.
This has two effects: Your subordinates can not directly connect the "execution" with you. Of course, you give the order, but it is the will of the party, the organisation, etc. The dirty work is done somewhere on a death march far away. Second effect: People are more willing to do cruel things. Our great master gave us the order, all my comrades obey, so do I.
In real life dictators don't assault enemy bases themselves with only two sidekicks, either. For story reasons Clovis is doing much more dirty work himself than is realistic, and not only with the execution.

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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#21 Post by Eclipse »

MuonNeutrino wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:20 am Honestly, I've never quite understood a lot of the more sympathetic takes Clovis gets. I can't say I anticipated this exact action of his, but I definitely didn't expect him to let Roan's words go unpunished, and this is exactly the sort of thing I would have expected of him all along.

He's a villain, and a vile one. He always has been. In his very first appearance back in TDM he first threatens to throw Natani to his guild to be gang-raped if they don't get the mask, and then outright admits to the viewers that he still fully intends to do so even after they succeed - unless he decides to take 'her' as a sex slave himself. And remember, he created the link and knows what it did to Natani's mind, and still has zero hesitation about doing those things. It never even crosses his mind to care. As far as he's concerned, once Natani completes the mission for him, he's nothing more than a convenient hole to fill. He even muses about how he enjoys breaking victims that try to fight back. Other people aren't people to him, they're things, whose only value is to be used for his profit or enjoyment. And having spent the last 5 years stewing in his malice, fuming and blaming Natani, Zen, and Nora in particular and the entire female half of Mekkan in general for his problems, is not going to have made him any less hateful and self-centered (as his refsheet notes). He starts his current run in the comic by sending Carver after Zen, and through Carver explicitly threatens Zen in a way that makes it very clear that he's still out to 'get' Natani in some way that involves his sexuality - and given that the *last* thing he had planned for Natani was to have him gang-raped or become a sex slave (after Natani had completed the mission for him!) I very highly doubt that after 5 years of blaming Natani for his fall he's got anything *more* merciful planned. And Carver -- who's shown he knows at least some of what Clovis wants and has in mind -- is quick to jump on the chance to also grab Raine for his boss's use, and given what we know of Clovis' plans for Natani I don't think we could expect Raine to have a nice time in his hands either. And then he shows himself to be perfectly willing to sell his services to the kill-them-all-let-the-masks-sort-them-out Templar to exacerbate a bloody war and has no qualms about doing so involving the personal, hands-on massacre of hundreds of innocent people. He's a misogynistic, self-centered, cruel, greedy, sadistic, abusive, and amoral slaver, rapist, and murderer who enjoys inflicting pain and suffering and lives in a fantasy world of cardboard cutout people that exist only to serve his needs. He's not a nice person, nor a remotely sympathetic one.

The only even remotely positive qualities he's shown have been a modest degree of physical courage and concern of some sort for Brutus, and those are a pretty thin reed to set against all the rest of his vile characterization. And the way that all of the other members of his guild that we've actually seen on screen have, in their brief moments in the spotlight, made a point of narrating for us that they don't think Clovis cares about anyone but himself (and maybe Brutus), isn't exactly subtle. I think it's been too easy to forget that the sketches are a) non-canon, and b) dictated by the viewers, and that the portrayal of Clovis in those sketches has very little bearing on his actual character. And I think this might be at least in part Tom's way of reminding us of that. Clovis is not a good person, he's not supposed to be sympathetic, and we probably shouldn't be looking for those qualities in him. Not every villain needs to have a good side. Not every villain needs to have a tragic backstory, redeeming qualities, or the potential for redemption. There are some people who really are just like that. Not all, certainly, and it definitely would be a mistake to have *all* the villains in one's story be like that, but they are out there, and sometimes they should show up. Sometimes a story just needs a unsympathetic hateful villain for the audience to cheer when he gets a knife in the back.
I think part of this is that not all of us have read TDM. I haven't, as I haven't had the money to spare to support Tom's Patreon. So for some of us, all we really know is the sketches and they've gone heavy on the Clovis x Brutus shipping. This is his first major role in the main comics.

That being said, thinking about it and reading Bellhead's response, I think there actually is still a path for him to be redeemed, all that's changed is he's further gone than I thought. Clovis does seem to be drunk on power right now and he's taking it out on anything and everything in his way due to his curse, but if his power fails him, then what's he going to do? I discussed one possible scenario a few pages ago and I think it could still happen.

First of all, I think Brahn is going to betray him. There's no way that Brahn is going to let Clovis run rampant like this without any way to rein him in, and given the Templar's contempt for Keidran their alliance isn't going to last long. Once Clovis has outlived his usefulness in infiltrating the Estate and drawing out Trace, Brahn will probably arrest or kill him. The amulet is probably secretly cursed in some way to limit Clovis in some way, and someone on one of the past pages (I forget who) brought up the idea of the amulet being a makeshift Keidran slave collar which would make a lot of sense. So once Brahn captures Trace he could also begin controlling Clovis and ordering him to slaughter his men and Trace's friends. They, in turn, will want to destroy the amulet to free Clovis, much to his protests because he doesn't want them to find out about his gender problems. Unfortunately for him, they succeed, and everyone finds out the truth. However, I think there are several characters that, once they find out the truth, wouldn't really think any less of him. Brutus, for one, I think he would still respect Clovis regardless of which gender he is (I can see his reaction now. "Boss... you're hot!" LOL). And Natani, once he's finished laughing at the karmic justice, would have some empathy for Clovis and help him see that femininity =/= weakness because Natani has been through the same kind of character development herself.

But yeah, if that's not the route Tom's going here, Clovis deserves to die and I'm rooting for Brutus to kill him. It'd just be a shame if we don't get to see those interactions.

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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#22 Post by CrRAR »

Yastreb wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:55 pm
Tetrahedron wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:56 pm OK, maybe, or even for sure, my knowledge is limited in this topic, but something still bothers me:
I have always the feeling, leading "evil" organisations does not work like this. Be it here Clovis, or in villains in many other media.
Please forgive me, I will use very big examples now:
Look at the powerful dictators of the 20th century. They killed millions. But they never did it on their own. They did not walk in their headquarters and shoot some disobeying general. For a strange reason this does not work. Of course, people vanished in prisons, got executed, and so on for disloyalty, but never directly.
To hold power, and be cruel and insane fanatic, you have to institutionalise (is this a word in English?) the killing.
This has two effects: Your subordinates can not directly connect the "execution" with you. Of course, you give the order, but it is the will of the party, the organisation, etc. The dirty work is done somewhere on a death march far away. Second effect: People are more willing to do cruel things. Our great master gave us the order, all my comrades obey, so do I.
In real life dictators don't assault enemy bases themselves with only two sidekicks, either. For story reasons Clovis is doing much more dirty work himself than is realistic, and not only with the execution.
I’m telling ya, Clovis is all about the glory. I guarantee you with his growing power so does he become more bold. Him busting into the estate is evidence enough of that. Think of it like a drunk looking to pick fights, Clovis may have tolerated Roan before but this is the last straw, and with the amulet what does he even need such snivling and ungrateful lackies for anyway? The ‘drunker’ he gets, whats the trouble of starting fights?

Yeah I could see a separatist leader murdering for example in front of others, however I do not think that Clovis thought out this as that kind of message, it’s executed casually. It’s a ‘I have the means’ and a ‘you disrespected me’ kill. In front of his beloved Brutus, to which there probably needn’t be a question of loyalty.

P.S. Also worth mentioning is Clovis’ attitude toward not just Roan, but Sam too. Brutus says “he changed back when I tried to eat him”, to which Clovis says “ah we’ll have to take good care of him then” meaning to deliberately torture him perpetually with being a cow, which is also pretty evil. So, for breaking with orders and storming the estate two of his previously “trustworthy” men (who we have to assume’s antics and conduct probably doesn’t deviate much from current escapades) are worthless to him. So it’s either 1) Clovis is on a power bender, and/or 2) He’s so personally invested in this estate mission he just feels necessary it’s only him that should have the honor carry it out.
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#23 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:39 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:22 am And again given what we know about Clovis' curse it is a good bet that he does not really care about Brutus. It was simply an effect of the curse and right now we are seeing the lingering effects. Perhaps later down the chapter Clovis snap out of it and Brutus will painfully realize "the boss" does care for anyone but himself
I'll guess you mean "does not care for anyone but himself", unless I'm reading it wrong. Which I could be.

But I'll stand by many of our previous predictions regarding his future development, that he'll realize he actually does give a damn about Brutus. That said, the curse likely had a severe psychological effect on his mind, including physical attraction, hormones, etc. which he would remember having to deal with. Now that he's (presumably) free of it, he's gone full-tilt in the other direction, discrediting every single thing that he felt while in that form. I bet he assumes, as of now, that caring for his men, any of them, is a weakness. I'd also wager that he currently sees Brutus as a guard and nothing more, and just as expendable as his men. Not deep down, of course, but he refuses to let himself see anything else, sexist racist [censored].

Such a mentality would forcibly block him from even considering any kind of bond with anyone, even his closest allies. I could definitely see Brutus asking Clovis about what we just saw, Brutus trying to cower in fear afraid of asking anything for his first time, and Clovis having but a single moment's hesitation before incinerating him, only to privately and inwardly regret it for the rest of his life. Of course, I could also see Brutus being caught in some life-threatening situation where Clovis has to choose between revenge and saving him, choosing revenge with the same result.. Or maybe even saving Brutus, and questioning his own intentions and possibly blaming (and reprimanding) Brutus for it.

When your mind is THAT broken, it gets very hard to change it. And if you're permanently set in your ways, it may never come to pass. He could well just be a sadistic greedy psychopath for the rest of his life. Sometimes villains just need to be one-dimensional for their character to work, even if it is by that character's choice.
Yep Typo on my side you are correct.

I would rather Clovis end is met at the hands of Brutus not the other way around. I think it would be poetical if not only Clovis last words are: "Et tu Brutus" but that as he lies dying on the floor he realizes that he lost the only thing of value he ever had. His friendship with Brutus.
MuonNeutrino wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:20 am Large snip
I have to agree that not all villains need some potential redemption to work. And in the comic Trace is (was?) already a deep interesting and tragic villain. A broken man who ultimately decided to [expletive] the whole world out of pain trying to bring back his wife and i think that is sufficient for this story. The thing is that most of Tom's characters are rather interesting, believable relatable and have a depth to them. Characterization is his strong suit and carries his story when the slightly convoluted plot falters. Compared to the rest of the characters Clovis fells flat and one dimensional, like a 80's comic book villain. Do not get me wrong, i think this is by design. But given the apparent lack of depth of this character some of us came to the conclusion that there was some more to him, perhaps he was not that bad or had some more interesting qualities to him. Personally i believed there should be a little more to his character simply because I prefer more complex characters.

That being said i doubt, at this point, that we are gonna see some form of redemption for him. It is clear now he is intended as a villain and little more. However I think even if he never planned for him to be more than a villain and antagonist we cheer when he ultimately in a twist of fate ends up as a sec slave himself dies at the hand of the the closest thing he had to a friend a little bit more characterization would have gone long way.
Tetrahedron wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:56 pm OK, maybe, or even for sure, my knowledge is limited in this topic, but something still bothers me:
I have always the feeling, leading "evil" organisations does not work like this. Be it here Clovis, or in villains in many other media.
Please forgive me, I will use very big examples now:
Look at the powerful dictators of the 20th century. They killed millions. But they never did it on their own. They did not walk in their headquarters and shoot some disobeying general. For a strange reason this does not work. Of course, people vanished in prisons, got executed, and so on for disloyalty, but never directly.
To hold power, and be cruel and insane fanatic, you have to institutionalise (is this a word in English?) the killing.
This has two effects: Your subordinates can not directly connect the "execution" with you. Of course, you give the order, but it is the will of the party, the organisation, etc. The dirty work is done somewhere on a death march far away. Second effect: People are more willing to do cruel things. Our great master gave us the order, all my comrades obey, so do I.
That is correct, real criminal organizations and dictatorship work more akin corporations or governments than what tv and other media likes to show. I like this particular video of gcp grey dealing about how to be a ruler/dictator. But Clovis is a comic book villain so there is no need for him to bother with the real implications of running a criminal enterprise. Though being fair he is likely tripping high on his amulet and I doubt he would have killed Roan under more normal circumstances.
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#24 Post by CrRAR »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:28 pmI think it would be poetical if not only Clovis last words are: "Et tu Brutus" but that as he lies dying on the floor he realizes that he lost the only thing of value he ever had. His friendship with Brutus.
See, thing is it’s not a friendship in the traditional sense of the word friendship, I think more so it’s a naieve bond sustained on Brutus’ side with unconditional love... Clovis’ contributution to the “friendship” is probably more of “I get to grace you with my presence, aren’t I SO great” and not one I’m assuming where he contributes or particpates in anything other than massaging his own self-indulgence. “If it’s good for me, it’s good for thee”. He may hold Brutis to a higher standard than his other lackies by what Brutus means to HIM, a status-symbol of sorts, but I feel like Clovis strictly operates on a one-way-street mentality of all things value are judged by what value they bring to Clovis.

Not a healthy friendship by any means. I’m thinking of it as Brutus - and others - he treats more as trophies he’s bought, when they stop shining so pretty they’re discarded. tbh, it doesn’t even work if Clovis is looking to start a revolution all his own, because a successful leader looks out for the interests of him/herself AND the cohort, Clovis evidently doesn’t care even much for his OWN team, only what spoils they provide him. Once he’s acquired enough (if the concept of ‘enough’ is familiar to him) where will that leave his men if they all are just a means-to-an-ends?

If he were to succeed in world domination, t’would not be a world many would want to live. (;_;)
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#25 Post by Technic[Bot] »

CrRAR wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:01 pm
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:28 pmI think it would be poetical if not only Clovis last words are: "Et tu Brutus" but that as he lies dying on the floor he realizes that he lost the only thing of value he ever had. His friendship with Brutus.
See, thing is it’s not a friendship in the traditional sense of the word friendship, I think more so it’s a naieve bond sustained on Brutus’ side with unconditional love... Clovis’ contributution to the “friendship” is probably more of “I get to grace you with my presence, aren’t I SO great” and not one I’m assuming where he contributes or particpates in anything other than massaging his own self-indulgence. “If it’s good for me, it’s good for thee”. He may hold Brutis to a higher standard than his other lackies by what Brutus means to HIM, a status-symbol of sorts, but I feel like Clovis strictly operates on a one-way-street mentality of all things value are judged by what value they bring to Clovis.

Not a healthy friendship by any means. I’m thinking of it as Brutus - and others - he treats more as trophies he’s bought, when they stop shining so pretty they’re discarded. tbh, it doesn’t even work if Clovis is looking to start a revolution all his own, because a successful leader looks out for the interests of him/herself AND the cohort, Clovis evidently doesn’t care even much for his OWN team, only what spoils they provide him. Once he’s acquired enough (if the concept of ‘enough’ is familiar to him) where will that leave his men if they all are just a means-to-an-ends?

If he were to succeed in world domination, t’would not be a world many would want to live. (;_;)
Yes I am sure that Clovis and Brutus relationship is one side at best. However that does not mean that Brutus does not care about his boss. Maybe simply because he is too dim to realize the feeling is not mutual but regardless of the motive I think Brutus does really care for Clovis and that has value in itself. Moreover it is likely he is the only person who genuinely care about Clovis.
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#26 Post by stlsf4003 »

Well then......There goes even the tiniest chance Clovis had at redemption. He just up and torched the one of his own guys, in front of Brutus no less!

Now we wait and see just how loyal the big lunk will be to his boss after a stunt like that!
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#27 Post by Chicken Man »

I can't really fault Clovis too bad here.
I preferred Roan as a hen, too.
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#28 Post by tony1695 »

I think Clovis was right in executing Roan, even if his own reasons are completely and utterly wrong. Let's examine the facts:

Roan and Sam went to rescue Brutus. Maybe not against orders, but the dialogue earlier implied that they weren't ordered to either. It was glory-seeking behaviour that didn't benefit anyone but themselves. They almost certainly didn't inform anyone of their plan. They went up to the manor without a plan, without backup and without any real idea of how to get back out.
They got captured. A fault on Rose's part is not interrogating the pair, but given that Roan was in a cage next to Brutus, she may have been intending to. Everything simply happened too fast for her to do that. Had they been interrogated, it could have complicated Clovis' manor raid significantly.
The backtalk. All of that could have been forgiven had Clovis not walked in at that moment. However, having an underling be so ready to throw insults at you isn't something you can tolerate. As a few other people have said, it was likely the last straw.
The punishment. Executing Roan for a string of failures is perfectly understandable. Clovis would have every reason to believe that Roan's actions compromised the plan. They hadn't, but Clovis likely wouldn't care. As for leaving Sam as a cow, it serves as a warning. "Run ahead, get captured, [censored] up, this'll happen to you."

Not justifying what happened, especially the method of execution, but even a less psychotic leader might have done that same.
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#29 Post by aerion111 »

Yeah, I don't feel this changes much about my view of Clovis. Other than emphasizing that he is willing to kill, but that was sorta implied already.
Roan disobeyed orders and then screwed up.
Until this page, I hadn't caught/remembered that Clovis didn't give a go-ahead on confronting the manor. Launching an early attack like they did could have potentially screwed up Clovis' own plans.
Best case, they'd have been demoted to grunt-work and have to climb the ladder from scratch by showing their loyalty and obedience and all that. You don't get to be a 'loose canon' in a criminal organization.

We've no evidence in either direction as to whether or not Clovis would have rescued Roan and Sam if they'd been caught on an actual mission. If they'd been sent in to get Brutus and then gotten turned into livestock, it's possible Clovis would indeed have grabbed them and had them turned back.
I mean, why not? He'd still do exactly what he did in the comic, storm in himself to 'do it right' and get Brutus (and Zen), and he might as well grab his other men. Clearly he has the ability to turn the cow back into a person, and he didn't say 'I'm not spending such an outrageous amount' as the reason he's not doing it. So it's probably easier and cheaper than training new guys.

But no, what Clovis executed wasn't a loyal follower that failed to overcome unknown and quite impressive magic through no fault of their own.
Roan doesn't follow orders, managed to get caught, and now Clovis discovers that there's not much loyalty or respect either?
People who're genuinely re-evaluating their view of Clovis either forgot who Clovis is, or need to watch more Mafia-based media. I wouldn't even raise an eyebrow at the head of some Yakuza deciding to execute someone like Roan.
Roan'd be nothing but a liability.

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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#30 Post by Shadow lurker »

Eclipse wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:22 pm I think part of this is that not all of us have read TDM. I haven't, as I haven't had the money to spare to support Tom's Patreon. So for some of us, all we really know is the sketches and they've gone heavy on the Clovis x Brutus shipping. This is his first major role in the main comics.
Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't TDM been free on Tom's patreon for the good part of a year now?

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