Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

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Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#1 Post by Technic[Bot] »

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First Apologizes if i messed up the format, first time.

Well seems I kinda called it. Requiescat in pace Roan.

Now this makes me wonder, why did Roan changed back? The manor had not started the ritual protocol before he returned to normal so it was not that, maybe a spell malfunction? As Sam is still stuck as a cow.

Also I wonder just how much of Clovis real personality is brutus aware of. Meaning he expected him to turn and save both of them and seemed unaware Clovis is just a psychopathic. I wonder if we are no gonna get any character development from Clovis end, maybe Brutus realizes just what kind of piece of [expletive] his boss is. And end ups well following his real world namesake...
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#2 Post by Eclipse »

Yeeaaaaaah, everyone in the "Clovis cares for his men" camp just turned out to be dead wrong. I think even Brutus is questioning his loyalty to Clovis after witnessing that. The [censored] can die now, and I wouldn't mind if it was by Brutus' hand.

Also, Clovis just let slip a hint about his gender problems. Luckily for him though, Brutus is too dense to pick up on it and Roan is likely dead.

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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#3 Post by Dadrobit »

Holy hot damn, did Tom actually kill off a character? Granted Roan is/was? a suuuuuper minor character, but my goodness has it been a while!
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#4 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Eclipse wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:57 pm Yeeaaaaaah, everyone in the "Clovis cares for his men" camp just turned out to be dead wrong. I think even Brutus is questioning his loyalty to Clovis after witnessing that. The [censored] can die now, and I wouldn't mind if it was by Brutus' hand.

Also, Clovis just let slip a hint about his gender problems. Luckily for him though, Brutus is too dense to pick up on it and Roan is likely dead.
Unfortunately we were. As I mentioned several times before, I would have found some more depth to his character, besides sadistic psychopath, to be interesting. But anyhow now very villain need a deep and complex character story and/or reasons to justify their actions some people are just [censored].

I imagine Brutus never saw Clovis killing some of their own men, especially someone he personally knew. And seems rather shocked by it, he genuinely believed his boss would send a rescue party for he and Roan and his expectations about Clovis just shattered. I kinda hope that by the end of the chapter Brutus sort of realizes Clovis barely even cares for him. Again a by-product of his curse. And pulls a well, Brutus. would be interesting if at the end of the day Clovis last words are: "Et tu Brutus?" if simply to score an easy historic reference. Extra points if Clovis second name if Caesar or something like that.
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#5 Post by CrRAR »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:50 pm Now this makes me wonder, why did Roan changed back? The manor had not started the ritual protocol before he returned to normal so it was not that, maybe a spell malfunction? As Sam is still stuck as a cow.
That would have to do with the magic being crafted by Nora, much like her gender-chango spells despell at a kiss, apparently her species-changos also despell to prevent... other unspeakable outcomes. Her hobby is in trickery, so once the joke has run its course, taught a lesson and she's had her laugh, mission accomplished.

Eclipse wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:57 pm Yeeaaaaaah, everyone in the "Clovis cares for his men" camp just turned out to be dead wrong. I think even Brutus is questioning his loyalty to Clovis after witnessing that. The [censored] can die now, and I wouldn't mind if it was by Brutus' hand.
Something tells me Clovis has always been a ruthless jerk, however, he cared enough to run a guild operation up till this point at least. I think his power-tripping at the moment may be amplified with his growing power and acquired enchantments perhaps to a bit of a one-man-show level. Roan was crusin' for a bruising talking like that, and Clovis obviously is in the mood to flex.

Boy better watch his hubris. As they say, it goeth before a fall~
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#6 Post by Eclipse »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:15 am
Eclipse wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:57 pm Yeeaaaaaah, everyone in the "Clovis cares for his men" camp just turned out to be dead wrong. I think even Brutus is questioning his loyalty to Clovis after witnessing that. The [censored] can die now, and I wouldn't mind if it was by Brutus' hand.

Also, Clovis just let slip a hint about his gender problems. Luckily for him though, Brutus is too dense to pick up on it and Roan is likely dead.
Unfortunately we were. As I mentioned several times before, I would have found some more depth to his character, besides sadistic psychopath, to be interesting. But anyhow now very villain need a deep and complex character story and/or reasons to justify their actions some people are just [censored].

I imagine Brutus never saw Clovis killing some of their own men, especially someone he personally knew. And seems rather shocked by it, he genuinely believed his boss would send a rescue party for he and Roan and his expectations about Clovis just shattered. I kinda hope that by the end of the chapter Brutus sort of realizes Clovis barely even cares for him. Again a by-product of his curse. And pulls a well, Brutus. would be interesting if at the end of the day Clovis last words are: "Et tu Brutus?" if simply to score an easy historic reference. Extra points if Clovis second name if Caesar or something like that.
I think a lot of us had our expectations for Clovis shattered with this page. Just wow... I was just saying on the last page's discussion I didn't think Clovis would punish Roan that severely but here we are.

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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#7 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Eclipse wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:34 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:15 am
Eclipse wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:57 pm Yeeaaaaaah, everyone in the "Clovis cares for his men" camp just turned out to be dead wrong. I think even Brutus is questioning his loyalty to Clovis after witnessing that. The [censored] can die now, and I wouldn't mind if it was by Brutus' hand.

Also, Clovis just let slip a hint about his gender problems. Luckily for him though, Brutus is too dense to pick up on it and Roan is likely dead.
Unfortunately we were. As I mentioned several times before, I would have found some more depth to his character, besides sadistic psychopath, to be interesting. But anyhow now very villain need a deep and complex character story and/or reasons to justify their actions some people are just [censored].

I imagine Brutus never saw Clovis killing some of their own men, especially someone he personally knew. And seems rather shocked by it, he genuinely believed his boss would send a rescue party for he and Roan and his expectations about Clovis just shattered. I kinda hope that by the end of the chapter Brutus sort of realizes Clovis barely even cares for him. Again a by-product of his curse. And pulls a well, Brutus. would be interesting if at the end of the day Clovis last words are: "Et tu Brutus?" if simply to score an easy historic reference. Extra points if Clovis second name if Caesar or something like that.
I think a lot of us had our expectations for Clovis shattered with this page. Just wow... I was just saying on the last page's discussion I didn't think Clovis would punish Roan that severely but here we are.
Yep I kinda expected him to taunt him a little and then let him out at best or turn him into a potted plant a few weeks at worst. Now if he survives the chapter, unlikely hopefully, he may simply butcher Sam and serve him to the rest of his men to prove a point...
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#8 Post by Bellhead »

Welp. Kinda predicted that, at least a little. I was kinda hoping he had the heart to not kill one of his men for simple disobedience and mouthing off, but there you have it. Clearly he's just as sadistic as ever, and even more unappreciative than I thought he was. I wonder just how "useless" he views Brutus to be, given what he said on the matter. How would his personal bodyguard react if he found out the Boss views ordinary guards as completely useless and expendable at a moment's notice? Saying so, then killing one (rather violently) right in front of him, while he begged for his life? I mean, Brutus is a dunce. Head harder than a rock, from what we've seen. But I doubt even HIS loyalty extends beyond "the job below mine is expendable, so what am I". Assuming this sort of thing hasn't happened before, and likely hasn't given Brutus' reaction, it's sure to be quite the revelation for him. Could change his opinion of the guy, if he even has one.

Now that I think of it, just when did Brutus become Clovis' personal bodyguard? I don't remember seeing him in TDM, so it's possible he was appointed after the gender swap and was only chosen for his more-than-adequate strength and lack of intelligence, though it's equally possible he'd been there since Clovis rose to power and was kept because he was too stupid to revolt.

That said, I can't really say that what we're seeing here is out of place. We've seen a LOT of side art showing Clovis back where he lives, with reactions from Brutus to his... condition, for lack of a better term, and the clear presence of an emotional response from him. However, in canon artwork and the Comic, we've not seen that much of him. It could very well be that Tom is using this page purely for character definition, showing that, Yes, he really IS that bad of a person.

Remember the fight with Seraphina, and everyone's reaction to it?
Spoiler! long and probably unnecessary callback
Back then, when Sera had the upper hand and had Keith and co. pinned down, many of us had some HARD suspicions that the Merry Basitin Band was simply not as strong, and not as unbeatable as we thought they were. Somebody, and I forget who by now, brought up that that's a method writers often use to show the strength of an enemy, rather than the weakness of the hero. Sort of a, "We know how strong the heroes are. Now watch how this villain mops the floor with them with ease." I'd imagine Tom's using this in a similar vein, trying to show just how dark and evil this character is, in canon comics, without killing anyone we really care about.
Now there's a thought...
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#9 Post by Hayate »

Oh dear... I wonder how this will affect Brutus’s view on Clovis...
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#10 Post by Eclipse »

Bellhead wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:47 am Somebody, and I forget who by now, brought up that that's a method writers often use to show the strength of an enemy, rather than the weakness of the hero. Sort of a, "We know how strong the heroes are. Now watch how this villain mops the floor with them with ease." I'd imagine Tom's using this in a similar vein, trying to show just how dark and evil this character is, in canon comics, without killing anyone we really care about.[/spoiler]Now there's a thought...
Yes, that's called The Worf Effect. It's a pretty common trope in action stories to show how strong a newcomer is.

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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#11 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:47 am Welp. Kinda predicted that, at least a little. I was kinda hoping he had the heart to not kill one of his men for simple disobedience and mouthing off, but there you have it. Clearly he's just as sadistic as ever, and even more unappreciative than I thought he was. I wonder just how "useless" he views Brutus to be, given what he said on the matter. How would his personal bodyguard react if he found out the Boss views ordinary guards as completely useless and expendable at a moment's notice? Saying so, then killing one (rather violently) right in front of him, while he begged for his life? I mean, Brutus is a dunce. Head harder than a rock, from what we've seen. But I doubt even HIS loyalty extends beyond "the job below mine is expendable, so what am I". Assuming this sort of thing hasn't happened before, and likely hasn't given Brutus' reaction, it's sure to be quite the revelation for him. Could change his opinion of the guy, if he even has one.

Now that I think of it, just when did Brutus become Clovis' personal bodyguard? I don't remember seeing him in TDM, so it's possible he was appointed after the gender swap and was only chosen for his more-than-adequate strength and lack of intelligence, though it's equally possible he'd been there since Clovis rose to power and was kept because he was too stupid to revolt.

That said, I can't really say that what we're seeing here is out of place. We've seen a LOT of side art showing Clovis back where he lives, with reactions from Brutus to his... condition, for lack of a better term, and the clear presence of an emotional response from him. However, in canon artwork and the Comic, we've not seen that much of him. It could very well be that Tom is using this page purely for character definition, showing that, Yes, he really IS that bad of a person.

Remember the fight with Seraphina, and everyone's reaction to it?
Spoiler! long and probably unnecessary callback
Back then, when Sera had the upper hand and had Keith and co. pinned down, many of us had some HARD suspicions that the Merry Basitin Band was simply not as strong, and not as unbeatable as we thought they were. Somebody, and I forget who by now, brought up that that's a method writers often use to show the strength of an enemy, rather than the weakness of the hero. Sort of a, "We know how strong the heroes are. Now watch how this villain mops the floor with them with ease." I'd imagine Tom's using this in a similar vein, trying to show just how dark and evil this character is, in canon comics, without killing anyone we really care about.
Now there's a thought...
I think Brutus is definetely not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. But i doubt he is as stupid as to not realize Clovis is not as nice as he thought him to be. Brutus cared for Clovis because he believed Clovis cared for him and by proxy his other men but now he can see that is clearly not the case. The most surprised person here is definitely our poor boy Brutus. He is probably wondering if Clovis could also Roast him if he one day he were to wake up in a bad mood.
And again given what we know about Clovis, curse it is a good bet that he does not really care about Brutus. It was simply an effect of the curse and right now we are seeing the lingering effects. Perhaps later down the chapter clovis snap out of it and Brutus will painfully realize "the boss" does not care for anyone but himself.

Finally yes. This is character definition, what we were discussing last page was whether Tom intended to show Clovis was not that bad of a person or if he was as bad as he claimed to be. turns out he is even worse. But at least now we can start wondering how will he go. I vote for death by Brutus pulling out a Brutus!
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#12 Post by Bellhead »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:22 am And again given what we know about Clovis' curse it is a good bet that he does not really care about Brutus. It was simply an effect of the curse and right now we are seeing the lingering effects. Perhaps later down the chapter Clovis snap out of it and Brutus will painfully realize "the boss" does care for anyone but himself
I'll guess you mean "does not care for anyone but himself", unless I'm reading it wrong. Which I could be.

But I'll stand by many of our previous predictions regarding his future development, that he'll realize he actually does give a damn about Brutus. That said, the curse likely had a severe psychological effect on his mind, including physical attraction, hormones, etc. which he would remember having to deal with. Now that he's (presumably) free of it, he's gone full-tilt in the other direction, discrediting every single thing that he felt while in that form. I bet he assumes, as of now, that caring for his men, any of them, is a weakness. I'd also wager that he currently sees Brutus as a guard and nothing more, and just as expendable as his men. Not deep down, of course, but he refuses to let himself see anything else, sexist racist [censored].

Such a mentality would forcibly block him from even considering any kind of bond with anyone, even his closest allies. I could definitely see Brutus asking Clovis about what we just saw, Brutus trying to cower in fear afraid of asking anything for his first time, and Clovis having but a single moment's hesitation before incinerating him, only to privately and inwardly regret it for the rest of his life. Of course, I could also see Brutus being caught in some life-threatening situation where Clovis has to choose between revenge and saving him, choosing revenge with the same result.. Or maybe even saving Brutus, and questioning his own intentions and possibly blaming (and reprimanding) Brutus for it.

When your mind is THAT broken, it gets very hard to change it. And if you're permanently set in your ways, it may never come to pass. He could well just be a sadistic greedy psychopath for the rest of his life. Sometimes villains just need to be one-dimensional for their character to work, even if it is by that character's choice.
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#13 Post by CrRAR »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:22 amAnd again given what we know about Clovis, curse it is a good bet that he does not really care about Brutus. It was simply an effect of the curse and right now we are seeing the lingering effects. Perhaps later down the chapter clovis snap out of it and Brutus will painfully realize "the boss" does care for anyone but himself.
Yeah I totally could see witnessing Roan’s demise - plus maybe other things to come - sets gears turning for a later moral crisis when Clovis finds himself in peril for [boneheaded power-hungry reason] and Brutus has to choose between being good boy!, or being a “goooood boooy” *clovissnicker.gif*.
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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#14 Post by steelabjur »

Brutus has a couple of advantages that Roan didn't. 1) he doesn't have any real ambition of his own, 2) he does what he's told, and 3) he's loyal to a fault.

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Re: Comic for January 2, 2021: Cow and Roast Chicken

#15 Post by MuonNeutrino »

Honestly, I've never quite understood a lot of the more sympathetic takes Clovis gets. I can't say I anticipated this exact action of his, but I definitely didn't expect him to let Roan's words go unpunished, and this is exactly the sort of thing I would have expected of him all along.

He's a villain, and a vile one. He always has been. In his very first appearance back in TDM he first threatens to throw Natani to his guild to be gang-raped if they don't get the mask, and then outright admits to the viewers that he still fully intends to do so even after they succeed - unless he decides to take 'her' as a sex slave himself. And remember, he created the link and knows what it did to Natani's mind, and still has zero hesitation about doing those things. It never even crosses his mind to care. As far as he's concerned, once Natani completes the mission for him, he's nothing more than a convenient hole to fill. He even muses about how he enjoys breaking victims that try to fight back. Other people aren't people to him, they're things, whose only value is to be used for his profit or enjoyment. And having spent the last 5 years stewing in his malice, fuming and blaming Natani, Zen, and Nora in particular and the entire female half of Mekkan in general for his problems, is not going to have made him any less hateful and self-centered (as his refsheet notes). He starts his current run in the comic by sending Carver after Zen, and through Carver explicitly threatens Zen in a way that makes it very clear that he's still out to 'get' Natani in some way that involves his sexuality - and given that the *last* thing he had planned for Natani was to have him gang-raped or become a sex slave (after Natani had completed the mission for him!) I very highly doubt that after 5 years of blaming Natani for his fall he's got anything *more* merciful planned. And Carver -- who's shown he knows at least some of what Clovis wants and has in mind -- is quick to jump on the chance to also grab Raine for his boss's use, and given what we know of Clovis' plans for Natani I don't think we could expect Raine to have a nice time in his hands either. And then he shows himself to be perfectly willing to sell his services to the kill-them-all-let-the-masks-sort-them-out Templar to exacerbate a bloody war and has no qualms about doing so involving the personal, hands-on massacre of hundreds of innocent people. He's a misogynistic, self-centered, cruel, greedy, sadistic, abusive, and amoral slaver, rapist, and murderer who enjoys inflicting pain and suffering and lives in a fantasy world of cardboard cutout people that exist only to serve his needs. He's not a nice person, nor a remotely sympathetic one.

The only even remotely positive qualities he's shown have been a modest degree of physical courage and concern of some sort for Brutus, and those are a pretty thin reed to set against all the rest of his vile characterization. And the way that all of the other members of his guild that we've actually seen on screen have, in their brief moments in the spotlight, made a point of narrating for us that they don't think Clovis cares about anyone but himself (and maybe Brutus), isn't exactly subtle. I think it's been too easy to forget that the sketches are a) non-canon, and b) dictated by the viewers, and that the portrayal of Clovis in those sketches has very little bearing on his actual character. And I think this might be at least in part Tom's way of reminding us of that. Clovis is not a good person, he's not supposed to be sympathetic, and we probably shouldn't be looking for those qualities in him. Not every villain needs to have a good side. Not every villain needs to have a tragic backstory, redeeming qualities, or the potential for redemption. There are some people who really are just like that. Not all, certainly, and it definitely would be a mistake to have *all* the villains in one's story be like that, but they are out there, and sometimes they should show up. Sometimes a story just needs a unsympathetic hateful villain for the audience to cheer when he gets a knife in the back.
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