Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

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Yastreb
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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#31 Post by Yastreb »

Bellhead wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:09 amThat was brought up by others, that Rose's personality may have been split, causing half of her to walk the grounds, completely independent of the half hanging in the greenhouse managing the magic of the mansion.

That would mean we have New Trace, Old Trace, black smokey, Seneschal Rose and Dark Rose, all in this mansion and (presumably) with different ideas as to what should be done with Maren and Saria.
Is there any evidence that Old Trace and Evil Black Smoke Hallusination are different entities? New Trace himself thinks otherwise: 736.

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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#32 Post by Bellhead »

Yastreb wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:30 pm
Bellhead wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:09 amThat was brought up by others, that Rose's personality may have been split, causing half of her to walk the grounds, completely independent of the half hanging in the greenhouse managing the magic of the mansion.

That would mean we have New Trace, Old Trace, black smokey, Seneschal Rose and Dark Rose, all in this mansion and (presumably) with different ideas as to what should be done with Maren and Saria.
Is there any evidence that Old Trace and Evil Black Smoke Hallusination are different entities? New Trace himself thinks otherwise: 736
For this, I will cite the "unreliable narrator" trope. Trace thinks that's what it is, and it could be, but that's the only evidence we have. But Smokey seemed to know Flora was pregnant before Trace did, before Flora told him.

I mean, it's possible it figured it out by Flora's behavior, what with gaining weight, morning sickness, breast size etc., but would Dark Trace have focused enough on what was happening to notice? The theory was passed around way back when that it was one of the Masks. Granted, it reacted to releasing Rose's restrictions, so I'm not as sure, but still.
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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#33 Post by Dreamfox »

Maybe it's not a name, because Detritus also translates to "waste material or rubbish".
Considering the attack it could mean that everyone at the 'beach' is considered this and maybe also Flora.
We'll see, but don't forget, we are talking about something Dark Trace has started and he was rather single-minded and didn't care much about anyone else except Saria and his revenge against the Keidran. Which could mean that Dark Trace's relationship with Maren may have been in preparation for this. Maybe her being sympathetic to him is necessary or helps with the resurrection some...

'Heart's Desire'. He doesn't need to resurrect her. He just needs a power source, a body and permanently put a variant of 'Heart's Desire' onto the body, overriding/destroying/merging the original personality. He might have been on the way to collect Maren when his memory was wiped.

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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#34 Post by Insomniac »

All I can think is, poor Rose. ...Also did she have to be naked, evil old Trace? I mean I ain't gonna say it's not hot in a totally messed up way but...
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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#35 Post by Bellhead »

Insomniac wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:55 pm All I can think is, poor Rose. ...Also did she have to be naked, evil old Trace? I mean I ain't gonna say it's not hot in a totally messed up way but...
She's elderly, gray, practically dead, hanging from dark magic tendrils, and covered in fur to boot, and that's what catches your eye? I have concerns. That said, she's always been an eye-catcher, so I can kinda understand that point of view, with the limited resolution of that one panel. Anyone remember this wonderful piece of art, for instance? I was in that stream, and there were SOOO many people hot for her.

Back on topic. As for the Heart's Desire angle..
I wonder if Trace would use his own memory of Saria for that, or if he would try to bring her soul back and put it in Maren's body. That said, Heart's Desire was a spell designed for assassination, and like all spells, requires a power source. Under normal circumstances, it would drain from the person whose desire was used. Assume Trace found a way around that somehow, and we're left wondering just how much power that spell uses, given that it nearly killed Keith -a BASITIN- in mere hours, possibly less. Would he be able to maintain such a major mana drain indefinitely? Or would he simply "program" Maren's body to run it? Moreover, would he have been happy knowing that it wasn't really her? It just doesn't seem likely to me.

Now as for what Trace was doing at the start of the comic, let's gather what we know. Neutral said that Trace was on his way to kill Flora when she wiped his memories, so most likely, he was simply attempting political assassination to prevent the Merging of the Clans between Sythe and Flora. I'd bet my next meal it was Trace who attacked that caravan. We also saw, by Euchre and Sirus (right around that time), that "The final tower is almost complete". We know Trace is needed for the final tower, the result of which would end all of keidran kind.

So I'd assume Trace was only trying to slow the keidran down, to prevent them from ruining his "master plan" for eliminating them. Might be due to his vengence, or his secret plan to bring his wife back, but he wouldn't have brought Maren back until he had finished all else he had to do. After bringing your dead wife back to life, you don't want your first action to be "Wait here while I travel for months across the ocean to finish a dastardly tower that will allow me to commit genocide on an entire race. There's ham in the icebox."
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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#36 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:09 am
aitaituo wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:32 am
steelabjur wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:49 am(I kind of wonder if the color in this is in error, or if there is a reason it's red and Secret!Rose is speaking in green? Maybe Tom thought the red was too close to the Smoke Hallucination's text and wanted to make sure we know it's coming from Rose?)
I think that's a separate entity from Rose. I am outspoken in believing it is the evil black smoke thing. Rose could not possibly be the entity in the post you quoted, because Rose has seen Maren several times before that. Whatever is taking then, it has not seen Maren before. It may have some power over Rose, however.
That was brought up by others, that Rose's personality may have been split, causing half of her to walk the grounds, completely independent of the half hanging in the greenhouse managing the magic of the mansion.

That would mean we have New Trace, Old Trace, black smokey, Seneschal Rose and Dark Rose, all in this mansion and (presumably) with different ideas as to what should be done with Maren and Saria.

That said, it's possible Dark Rose wants to resurrect Saria and couldn't see anyone not using a table, while Seneschal Rose sees that Trace isn't the same person he was. Now factor in that Trace removed her "restrictions", whatever they were, possibly keeping both sides of Rose separate, and we've got a recipe for some serious character struggle ahead.

I'd say this could get ugly, but it already is. Kinda hope I'm wrong here.
I still think there is more than one identity in/as the manor compeltely separate from Rose.
First I doubt that Rose is a willing element in this. Not that it matters, i doubt Trace asked her opinion about this and I am almost sure she does not even know the long term plan, she might suspect something but i doubt she has the details. We do not know how the after-life works in Mekkan, we just know that it is a thing, and it is safe to assume Rose may have expected to join her dear friend once she died, but Trace had other ideas.
On that note I think it is not that Rose was resurrected, more likely Trace has managed to not let her die. Of course this still very different from Saria, she has been completely death for a while. I imagine, thanks to his experiments on Rose, he figured it is not possible to maintain a body indefinitely without continuous dark magic support. That is when he left to get Maren.
On the other hand I do not think Trace ever planned to let Rose to orchestrate or influence the ritual. She is a test subject first and foremost and her connection with her dead wife make her more a liability than an asset. Even if she was also 100% on board the resurrection idea she might change her mind at the end or simply lie her way out. To risky, better to have other more reliable things, for lack of a better term. to help him carry out his necromancy experiments. But to stress test Rose Trace might though it was a good idea to let her take care of the state most mundane chores.
Besides if Rose was intent on taking revenge or slaughtering everyone, and or resurrecting Saria herself there were better and more efficient moments before. Not to mention she did a lot of stuff that only make sense if she was did not meant to kill everyone at the end.
Finally it has been hinted, on the chapter cover, that we are gonna see dark Trace come out and play. Trace should be at his breaking point now but still holds somehow. If it were to me to make the Dark Lord Trace come out the simplest way I could think of is to convince him Flora is lying and that is not his child. Alas I do not think that will happen. Most likely Flora will get hurt and TRace will revert trying to help her, otherwise if Flora is removed from the room there is nothing keeping Trace nice and sane or maybe seeing his plan just about to bear fruit it pushes him over the edge.
I think at the end Rose will actually try to help the rest, either to save what little family she has, she is no Euchre, or to prevent the defiling of her friends grave. Only to be "forcefully removed" by dark Trace.

Also i think Detritus is referring to herself. she is only bits and rubble a shadow of what she was.
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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#37 Post by Eclipse »

Speaking of Euchre, he's probably going to want to step in and help right about now. This is pretty much the opposite of what he wanted to happen, he explicitly didn't want Rose to show Trace what was on the third floor and he's not going to want Saria resurrected for... whatever reason he doesn't want Trace to return to his old ways, so I imagine he's going to do what he can to put a stop to all this necromancy stuff (i.e. project himself into the third floor and tell Trace how to stop it).

That being said though, I wonder if this is when Trace and Flora will finally learn about Euchre's true nature? Rose would probably spill the beans to Trace and Flora since she's not exactly thrilled with him right now, and I'm betting Raine will probably make her way here if the rest of the group managed to escape the Oasis Room, so the truth will probably come out to them soon. It's only a matter of time before they find out. Boy, Flora especially won't be happy when she finds out about all of the horrible things Euchre's done.
Insomniac wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:55 pm All I can think is, poor Rose. ...Also did she have to be naked, evil old Trace? I mean I ain't gonna say it's not hot in a totally messed up way but...
Trace didn't do that, Keidran just don't mind being naked as much as humans. Hell, Rose is naked in Raine's flashback before her entire life goes to hell.

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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#38 Post by Cosmacelf »

Rose isn’t in control anymore. All she could do is move a portrait of herself into a room and maybe teleport Trace. The smoke hallucination seems to be a separate entity that is following Trace around. I don’t think it is Trace’s “Dark Side”, I think it an entity that can control Trace from time to time. Right now I think it is controlling the manor and has incapacitated Rose.

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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#39 Post by Bellhead »

Cosmacelf wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:46 am Rose isn’t in control anymore. All she could do is move a portrait of herself into a room and maybe teleport Trace. The smoke hallucination seems to be a separate entity that is following Trace around. I don’t think it is Trace’s “Dark Side”, I think it an entity that can control Trace from time to time. Right now I think it is controlling the manor and has incapacitated Rose.
I slightly disagree. Dark Trace is only inside Trace, and would be the only entity that could control him. On the other hand, the smoke hallucination seems to only whisper words in his ear without taking direct control. That's why I don't think they're the same entity. The smoke hallucination might be part of the mansion, since it only appeared when they were moving closer to it, but even then, they were at least a day out from Edinmire, so probably not.
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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#40 Post by aitaituo »

Bellhead wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:53 amBack on topic. As for the Heart's Desire angle..
I wonder if Trace would use his own memory of Saria for that, or if he would try to bring her soul back and put it in Maren's body. That said, Heart's Desire was a spell designed for assassination, and like all spells, requires a power source. Under normal circumstances, it would drain from the person whose desire was used. Assume Trace found a way around that somehow, and we're left wondering just how much power that spell uses, given that it nearly killed Keith -a BASITIN- in mere hours, possibly less. Would he be able to maintain such a major mana drain indefinitely? Or would he simply "program" Maren's body to run it? Moreover, would he have been happy knowing that it wasn't really her? It just doesn't seem likely to me.
Was Trace aware that Saria was still lingering on as a ghost? Is Trace the reason Saria was still lingering on as a ghost? If so, Trace wouldn't have needed to create an illusory waifu when he already had a spectral waifu.

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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#41 Post by MatyMaty »

Cosmacelf wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:46 am Rose isn’t in control anymore. All she could do is move a portrait of herself into a room and maybe teleport Trace. The smoke hallucination seems to be a separate entity that is following Trace around. I don’t think it is Trace’s “Dark Side”, I think it an entity that can control Trace from time to time. Right now I think it is controlling the manor and has incapacitated Rose.
Look back to this page: http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/1092/

We see the entrance to the garden, the shadows of Rose's vines and the red petals falling near Saria's portrait. And the dialog makes it seem it is a conversation between two individuals. It seems to be (Real) Rose and someone else, maybe even the "projection" Rose. Either way it makes it look as if she is on the whole thing.

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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#42 Post by stlsf4003 »

I don't know about y'all but I've got a feeling that we'er gonna be losing a few character's by the time this chapters over. It's just a matter of who.

On another note. Anyone else getting a series finale vibe from this Chapter?
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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#43 Post by steelabjur »

stlsf4003 wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:41 am I don't know about y'all but I've got a feeling that we'er gonna be losing a few character's by the time this chapters over. It's just a matter of who.

On another note. Anyone else getting a series finale vibe from this Chapter?
Not really, but I could see the Team A/Team B dynamic getting changed by the end, and maybe a change in the story as far as goals. Maybe the fallout of this leads Trace to decide that running off to Lyn'knoll when so many are still affected by the Evil his former self caused and is still happening in his name isn't the right choice, and he stays to fight for change, joined by Sythe, Keith, and Eric (one acting in his role as Basitin Ambassador, the other being a Wolf Noble, and the last being a successful merchant able to help get supplies for an army). Meanwhile Red, Zen, Maddie, Raine, Kat, Karen, Mike, and Evals get sent into Tiger territory to find allies and find protection from the fighting by their friends.

Or really, any split up. I just think we'll be seeing the secondary characters from the Teams get shuffled around (I doubt we'll see the main characters Trace, Flora, Keith, and Natani split up, or the other couples: Red and Raine, and Sythe and Maren) and maybe new goals for the teams going forward. If we were talking literary though, I'd say we're in the final chapter of the first book of a series. Sort of like The Fellowship of The Ring.

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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#44 Post by Eclipse »

stlsf4003 wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:41 am I don't know about y'all but I've got a feeling that we'er gonna be losing a few character's by the time this chapters over. It's just a matter of who.

On another note. Anyone else getting a series finale vibe from this Chapter?
Nah. It feels more like we're at the halfway point at best. There's still multiple loose ends in the story right now, even if the necromancy ritual is stopped and Brahn/Clovis' army is stopped by the end of the chapter. The Templar are still running amok throughout Mekkan, Brahn or no Brahn, we're not done with that. Flora's baby isn't born yet. What's going on with the Riftwall Tavern? What's Carver going to do with the Western Basitins?

I agree with steelabjur that this chapter is going to change Trace's goals and he's going to want to stay and clean up his mess with the Templar. The end of the comic just won't feel satisfying unless he stops the madness his old self created. And I also agree that the teams are going to shuffle around a bit based on people's goals. So this might end up being a plot twist in the series rather than an ending.

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Re: Comic for July 12, 2020: The Rose Garden

#45 Post by Dreamfox »

Bellhead wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:53 am Back on topic. As for the Heart's Desire angle..
I wonder if Trace would use his own memory of Saria for that, or if he would try to bring her soul back and put it in Maren's body. That said, Heart's Desire was a spell designed for assassination, and like all spells, requires a power source. Under normal circumstances, it would drain from the person whose desire was used. Assume Trace found a way around that somehow, and we're left wondering just how much power that spell uses, given that it nearly killed Keith -a BASITIN- in mere hours, possibly less. Would he be able to maintain such a major mana drain indefinitely? Or would he simply "program" Maren's body to run it? Moreover, would he have been happy knowing that it wasn't really her? It just doesn't seem likely to me.
I have been thinking about this a little. Do we know what all these towers are supposed to do? I'd say that whatever they do, they should be able to power Heart's Desire as well wherever Trace wants to go with his replacement wife within human lands. In addition on what he told the other Templars they would do.
Heart's Desire has a few advantages the problem of resurrecting someone aside. His Saria, his Heart's Desire would understand what he has done to Rose and the Keidran and forgive him. From what we've seen? There was a lot I don't think the real Saria would forgive him. Understand, maybe, forgive? I doubt.
Considering how her death changed him, he might not mind that it's not the real Saria. A good enough replica might satisfy him, even if it didn't have a soul. Remember how reluctant Keith was to let the illusion of Laura go? Now take someone who wants the illusion.
As I said, we'll see.

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