Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

The comic stuff here.

Moderator: Moderators

Message
Author
User avatar
Rafe
Council Member
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:00 am

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#16 Post by Rafe »

The ultimate question in all this is, were the "access restrictions" that Trace had placed on Rose also there to keep whatever Rose is now, there at the Estate? Was Rose's soul somehow trapped there, unable to move on to whatever Land of Wind and Ghosts that is the Keidran afterlife? It's hard to imagine how cruel it would be to trap someone like that, potentially for eternity. This could be some seriously horrifying stuff. Is she already dead? Has she been waiting to die? Does she want to die?

I'm going to resist the temptation to get into guessing the exact details. Maybe "Rose" is what remains of the original Rose, conscious of what she is now. Maybe she's more of a replica, infused with the consciousness of the original Rose. Maybe she didn't know her nature until recently. I get the feeling she knew for some time, if not from the beginning. Maybe she was forced into it, maybe it was more of a bargain. As usual, I guess we'll see. I will say that The last time we dealt with this kind of thing was with the "Ghost of Laura". That took us to one of the greatest, most emotionally gut-wrenching scenes in the entire comic. (For the first time I knew of, Natani had tears in her eyes. Mike was crying so much Evals was getting worried.) Don't know if something like that is coming our way eventually, but it would be really nice.

User avatar
Bellhead
Templar Inner Circle
Posts: 4012
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:17 pm
Location: New England, US
Fav. Twokinds Character: Keith and Natani

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#17 Post by Bellhead »

Panther wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:05 am Rose being now totally "free"; will she become a threat for the new Trace, or help ? ................ :| :adira:
Oof. Good question. I'll reference This page (insert reference my internet is too slow to find), which was the first candid smile we saw of Rose in the mansion. "Over the years, I've learned not to get my hopes up..." and "What the heck. Call me Rose." This was said by somebody with newfound hope, albeit with a bit of hesitation. Based on that, and that he doesn't actually remember what he did, regrets it anyway, and has become a better person, I'd wager that she'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and at the VERY least, stay impartial when the chips go down.

That said, holy hell she's friggin' dead. What the Evil Overlord Trace is going on here. [read in partial monotone]

She seems like she still has most, if not all, of her memories and personality from her living life. Sad as it is to say, she likely remembers (certainly does now) what Trace did to her back then. She'd have quite the mental image of who he used to be, what he was willing to do, what he did to those who so much as looked at him the wrong way... After seeing all that, I could see how she might turn dark against him. Then again, he removed her restrictions AFTER she got her memories back, and AFTER she learned that he forgot... everything. So I still think that she would help him, even if not directly. She was never the "evil" type from anything we know, and strange as it may be with what we know now, she still seems to hold hope for a brighter future. I just don't think she'd jeopordize all of that possibility for a vendetta against a person who is, essentially, completely reformed.
Gearhead mechanic in the digital era, who will probably grow up is in the process of growing up to be a very grumpy old man.

User avatar
stlsf4003
Apprentice
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:49 am

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#18 Post by stlsf4003 »

OK, two things.

1. CALLED IT!

2. This revelation certainly could open some pretty damn dark doors going forward, simply due to the fact that we don't know how she died.

If we'er lucky, she simply passed of old age and was bound to the estate by Trace in a desperate bid to keep the last physical reminder of of his late wife intact......But since Tom seems to going with a much a darker theme for this chapter, the chances are good (not for Rose anyways) that her death was at the hands of Dark Trace.
the lurking furry railroader

Cinnibar
New Citizen
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:10 am
Fav. Twokinds Character: Natani

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#19 Post by Cinnibar »

All I can think is... Trace killed Rose with this enchantment stuff. How else would he accept a Keidran 'at his estate in the total insane evil mindset he was in? I can't imagine that was pleasant, and don't think he started with a peacefully departed corpse. Poor Roselyn. (;_;)

Rose has cause to consider repayment in that one strip where she considers it.

User avatar
Boltmu
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:58 am
Location: somewhere far east
Contact:

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#20 Post by Boltmu »

My guess is:
Trace tested his proto resurrect magic on Rose after she passed away, which managed to bring her soul back to life. This made Rose end up like a ghost. The next step of Trace's experiment would be bind the soul into a body. And that's what Maren for, like, providing a body which is physically alike to Saria.

User avatar
Sky Shatter
Citizen
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:17 pm

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#21 Post by Sky Shatter »

Oh I'm intrigued. This is just the right seasoning of grimdark that I like to really get the possibilities wide open.
I'm not usually one to jump on the theory train, but
Spoiler!
the thing in that secret room is definitely Rose's body, as if the stained-glass window of a rose over the entrance wasn't clue enough.

steelabjur
Council Member
Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:59 am

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#22 Post by steelabjur »

The fact that she called him "Master" is telling here, imo. Before this incident Rose was previously calling him by his name. This thing might be wearing Rose's form, but I'm pretty sure that's not the Rose we've came to know up to now.

Regarding Euchre, I doubt he knew.

User avatar
Foxtail
Newbie
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:09 pm
Location: Maryland, USA
Fav. Twokinds Character: Flora
Contact:

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#23 Post by Foxtail »

I know this only my second post here and I don't come to this forum much, but I had to come to this thread after seeing the latest page. I had to see what was being theorized here and holy cow, I didn't think of the prospect that Sky Shatter proposed... but that would make the most sense... didn't the door open the moment Trace lifted her restrictions? :shock:

User avatar
Technic[Bot]
Grand Templar
Posts: 1246
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:48 pm
Location: México
Fav. Twokinds Character: Raine!
Contact:

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#24 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Ok the pieces were there but i had hoped it actually pointed at any other thing. At this point I am not sure Flora is not basically Arianna from bloodborne

I do wonder what exactly Rose is. A simple puppet in the shape of Rose with all the memories Trace could scavenge from the original or her soul bound to the state while what is left of her body is stored in Traces necromancy lab?
MuonNeutrino wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:53 am Well, that's certainly a thing. I half expected this, or at least something like this, but it's still a rather ominous way to have it confirmed to say the least.

So Rose actually died two years ago at the age of 26 (it's currently the year 482), but despite being dead isn't actually gone. We know that ghosts exist in the twokinds universe, and that characters know that ghosts can be a thing, but I'm still imagining that this isn't exactly your typical ghost scenario. I still think that the speculation I had in that post fits - that Trace couldn't bear to let this last piece of Saria go, and so when she died he trapped her spirit (whether or not her actual physical body is still around), possibly as part of his research into defying death.

On another note, I went back and looked at all of Rose's appearances since her reintroduction to see if anything jumped out at me in light of this new revelation, and a few things came to mind. First, when Rose's shackles were first lifted and we were reacting to that whole revelation, I commented that Rose's reaction in comic 1033 kinda struck me as being odd. Now that we had had some kind of hint that Trace had actually perhaps done something horrible to her, her reaction to Trace's innocently-offered "If I ever hurt you, I'm sorry" apology seemed to me to suggest she might have been reacting to something she knew about him having done that he didn't. And now, of course, that's confirmed. In that comic trace innocently offers to apologize for anything he did... not realizing that he was actually apologizing for literal necromancy (and probably mind control too) inflicted on his late wife's best friend. Talk about harsher in hindsight!

Second, way back in comic 988, the characters are eating breakfast and Trace invites Rose to join them. She looks rather perturbed at this, and her rather hesitant response is "I... can't." She immediately follows this by saying she's got other work to do, but given today's comic there is of course a much simpler reason - she's a ghost/projection/whatever, she literally can't eat. I don't know if anyone picked up on this at the time, and without the benefit of hindsight it's a rather subtle clue, but it's still there. And along similar lines to what I was commenting above regarding Rose's reaction to Trace's apology, her reaction here seems almost *too* strong. Again, it's pretty subtle, and perhaps I'm reading more into it in hindsight than I should be, but her expression feels almost *too* shocked for the mundane context. Yes, it's a shockingly informal thing for a master to say to a servant in such a straitlaced social environment, but in hindsight, whoooof. Knowing what we know now, look at that from Rose's perspective. She doesn't realize yet that Trace has lost his memories. As far as she knows, he's still fully aware of what he'd done to her. And so, from her point of view, he's just invited her to dine with them... while (she thinks) knowing full well that she is literally incapable of it because he's the one who enslaved her soul after she died. If it had actually been done on purpose, that would have been an incredibly cruel and sadistic taunt fully worthy of old!Trace at his nastiest. And she can't even say anything in response because that oh-so-innocent invitation had been given in front of others who weren't in on the secret, so all she can do is give a lame excuse for the benefit of those others, again knowing (or thinking she knows) that Trace is laughing cruelly at her the whole time behind those innocent-looking eyes. In hindsight, that one scene speaks volumes about either Rose's self-control or the strength of whatever control spells Trace had on her!

And finally, Rose and Euchre. Does Euchre know?!? If it were any other context I'd say that a mage as skilled as Euchre would almost *have* to be able to tell, but if anything is going to be able to fool him it's the magic of the Estate that was enchanted by both Trace *and* Nora. His dialog in those two strips gives no clue he knows, but on the other hand we know he's a chessmaster of the deepest dye. His words say what he wants them to say. And yet... he says it's good to see her "after so long". He expresses concern for *her*. He strongly implies he doesn't know what secrets the Estate holds. If he's not lying, if we take those on face value, they'd seem to me to fit best with him *not* knowing. If he'd truly hadn't seen her in a long time (whether that simply means a few years or literally since her capture) would Trace have told him? I doubt it. Would he express concern for her as if he thought she *wasn't* already in about the worst situation imaginable if he knew? I don't think we've seen the last of him. I think he might even show up again this chapter - it's not like whatever is going on with the mansion is *subtle* in the slightest, after all - and if he does, what would his reaction be? We know he's always had his own game in some mysterious sense, and that he's at least a little remorseful for some of what he's done. How would he react to knowing what Trace did to his cousin?

Anyway, whoof. This is a hell of a page.
If i remember correctly last time we saw a true ghost, Saria, it was summoned from whatever kind of afterlife exists in Mekkan by Ephemeral as part of his plan to break up Flora and Trace and she eventually went back to whenever she came from happy to see his former husband found someone else.
What I am trying to say is that i doubt ghost spirits are particularly common. And only appear under very specific circumstances.

Regarding Euchre I doubt he knows. If i recall Mary managed to hide their children until Trace come and blackmailed him with killing both his former lover and his child. And Trace magic is far stronger than that of Mary. That and given their position If trace did not wanted Euchre to know about that, then he did not know about it.

I suspect once this chapter is over, if no one else dies, this is gonna put a heavy strain on Raine and Trace. So far Raine has not had time to question who this blue haired simpleton is, she is to busy with her own issues. But once she finds out he outesd her mother, almost killed them, sold them to slavery, blackmailed her dad and played necromancy with the only family she had left. Well I doubt they will end on talking terms. I kinda expect a old/Trace-Raine figth at the end of the chapter and for her to save the day at the end by overpowering Trace with sheer power.
Bellhead wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:09 am
Panther wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:05 am Rose being now totally "free"; will she become a threat for the new Trace, or help ? ................ :| :adira:
Oof. Good question. I'll reference This page (insert reference my internet is too slow to find), which was the first candid smile we saw of Rose in the mansion. "Over the years, I've learned not to get my hopes up..." and "What the heck. Call me Rose." This was said by somebody with newfound hope, albeit with a bit of hesitation. Based on that, and that he doesn't actually remember what he did, regrets it anyway, and has become a better person, I'd wager that she'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and at the VERY least, stay impartial when the chips go down.

That said, holy hell she's friggin' dead. What the Evil Overlord Trace is going on here. [read in partial monotone]

She seems like she still has most, if not all, of her memories and personality from her living life. Sad as it is to say, she likely remembers (certainly does now) what Trace did to her back then. She'd have quite the mental image of who he used to be, what he was willing to do, what he did to those who so much as looked at him the wrong way... After seeing all that, I could see how she might turn dark against him. Then again, he removed her restrictions AFTER she got her memories back, and AFTER she learned that he forgot... everything. So I still think that she would help him, even if not directly. She was never the "evil" type from anything we know, and strange as it may be with what we know now, she still seems to hold hope for a brighter future. I just don't think she'd jeopordize all of that possibility for a vendetta against a person who is, essentially, completely reformed.
I hope it does not turn out Rose is the bad guy of this chapter. I liked her character, and as you point out if she had any ulterior motive or wanted revenge nor she seems evil Besides if she wanted to hurt them there was no reason for her to wait, help her niece, help Maddie and Karen or let them go to the beach. Also I am pretty sure the real antagonist of this chapter is actually evil Trace, he simply has not popped out yet. On top of that even without her limitations in place I doubt she has the authorization to hurt Trace or stop/start the ritual. Alas she may have been biding her time so she could have a bigger revenge.
Or maybe now that the mansion ritual protocol is active Rose personality was simply overridden by the more helpful "Necromancy assistant" Trace kept in his laboratory to help on his dark experiments.
There are three things that motivate people: Money, fear and love.
Links to my ramblings:
Twokinds [of] data
PhpBB in the age of facebook
If you are new to this phpBB thing:
BBCode guide

User avatar
Eclipse
Templar Master
Posts: 407
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:13 pm

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#25 Post by Eclipse »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:01 pm I suspect once this chapter is over, if no one else dies, this is gonna put a heavy strain on Raine and Trace. So far Raine has not had time to question who this blue haired simpleton is, she is to busy with her own issues. But once she finds out he outesd her mother, almost killed them, sold them to slavery, blackmailed her dad and played necromancy with the only family she had left. Well I doubt they will end on talking terms. I kinda expect a old/Trace-Raine figth at the end of the chapter and for her to save the day at the end by overpowering Trace with sheer power.
I'm pretty sure Raine already knows what Trace looks like from this page, and she already knows that he was responsible for everything that happened to her. She's also witnessed him saving Flora from Ephemural. At this point, she most likely already knows that Trace isn't acting normally and if she couldn't already tell he lost his memory, the rest of Team B probably explained it to her.

She's definitely going to be upset when she finds out Rose is actually dead, but I doubt she'll take it out on Trace unless Old Trace reappears. And if he does, I doubt Raine is going to win. She's powerful, but not that powerful and she doesn't have enough control over her magic to defeat him.

Hope she doesn't have any issues taking magic lessons from a ghost.

User avatar
Technic[Bot]
Grand Templar
Posts: 1246
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:48 pm
Location: México
Fav. Twokinds Character: Raine!
Contact:

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#26 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Eclipse wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:10 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:01 pm I suspect once this chapter is over, if no one else dies, this is gonna put a heavy strain on Raine and Trace. So far Raine has not had time to question who this blue haired simpleton is, she is to busy with her own issues. But once she finds out he outesd her mother, almost killed them, sold them to slavery, blackmailed her dad and played necromancy with the only family she had left. Well I doubt they will end on talking terms. I kinda expect a old/Trace-Raine figth at the end of the chapter and for her to save the day at the end by overpowering Trace with sheer power.
I'm pretty sure Raine already knows what Trace looks like from this page, and she already knows that he was responsible for everything that happened to her. She's also witnessed him saving Flora from Ephemural. At this point, she most likely already knows that Trace isn't acting normally and if she couldn't already tell he lost his memory, the rest of Team B probably explained it to her.

She's definitely going to be upset when she finds out Rose is actually dead, but I doubt she'll take it out on Trace unless Old Trace reappears. And if he does, I doubt Raine is going to win. She's powerful, but not that powerful and she doesn't have enough control over her magic to defeat him.

Hope she doesn't have any issues taking magic lessons from a ghost.
I am sure she know who is Trace and what she has done. I just think she has not had any time to sit down and put 2 and 2 together and realize it is the same blue haired dude that is marrying a tigress.
And she may have very little if any, control over he magic but i remember it being stated she has the most "mana" or something like that from the entire party, by a lot. So a duel will still be interesting to watch in my opinion.
There are three things that motivate people: Money, fear and love.
Links to my ramblings:
Twokinds [of] data
PhpBB in the age of facebook
If you are new to this phpBB thing:
BBCode guide

User avatar
Eclipse
Templar Master
Posts: 407
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:13 pm

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#27 Post by Eclipse »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:22 am I am sure she know who is Trace and what she has done. I just think she has not had any time to sit down and put 2 and 2 together and realize it is the same blue haired dude that is marrying a tigress.
Highly doubtful. Trace is infamous in Mekkan, do you really think she's sat there hearing his name when he showed up and thought "Meh"? That'd be like if someone came up to you in our world and said "Technic[Bot], I want you to meet my good friend Hitler!". The very name is going to catch your attention and raise an eyebrow. Everything Trace has done is probably at the forefront of Raine's mind during that scene, it probably wouldn't take her that long to put 2 and 2 together.

User avatar
Cosmacelf
Apprentice
Posts: 129
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:06 am
Location: San Diego

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#28 Post by Cosmacelf »

steelabjur wrote: Sun Jun 28, 2020 8:51 pm The fact that she called him "Master" is telling here, imo. Before this incident Rose was previously calling him by his name. This thing might be wearing Rose's form, but I'm pretty sure that's not the Rose we've came to know up to now.

Regarding Euchre, I doubt he knew.
It wasn’t that long ago that Rose was calling Trace master.

http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/1046/

HSishi
Citizen
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:52 pm
Location: Kassel, Germany

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#29 Post by HSishi »

It's bad Trace doesn't just remember what his former self did in the past ... he also forgot why.

So the limitations "Rose" was under were not only trapping her inside the mansion and reducing her abilities. They probably kept her in the role of a calm and loyal servant.
Now she's off the leash.
If she is a revengeful person Trace should remember more of his past and the abilities he had. And he should quickly remember if he had done anything positive to Rose between the time around her death and his memory-loss.

But if I count in the trouble the others have on the beach with the formerly-lifeless statues, I doubt she's the forgiving person.

User avatar
Ecthudan
Citizen
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:20 pm
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: Comic for June 27, 2020: The Painting Pt. 2

#30 Post by Ecthudan »

I highly doubt Rose is the antagonist here. Rose hasn't exactly been acting like she's plotting to take revenge on Trace. Also, we know for a fact that whatever thing detected Maren touching the table wasn't Rose, since Rose would already have seen Maren many times by that point. In fact, we can see from the dark magic tendrils that appear there that the thing that detected Maren was also probably the thing that Maddie saw.

There are a few options. It's possible that Rose's personality has been overridden by the "thing", and now she has to do its bidding. If Rose is indeed a spirit, then she's a very unconventional one. She's been seen interacting with physical objects quite a few times. Maybe the simple reason why Rose chose to hide that painting there is because finding out that she's actually dead would raise all kinds of questions that Rose would rather not answer. We also know that Saria died in 477, so whoever made that inscription must have been Trace himself, which is also interesting.

And of course, we still don't know what the "thing" really is. We just know it has red hair. Is it Rose's body? Sure, she also has red hair, but her hairdo looks completely different from the thing's. In fact, the thing's hair makes it look like Trace himself, but with red hair. Maybe it's an incarnation of Evil Trace. Trace must have left a part or a clone of himself there to guard the estate, and that thing is probably made of dark magic.

In any case, I don't think Rose is responsible for any of this. Her "detritus" line a few pages ago makes me think that "Evil Trace/The Manor's Defenses/The Thing" has managed to override her personality, which is also why Rose is suddenly calling Trace "master" again here.

Post Reply