Comic for June the 20th, 2020

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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#16 Post by Warrl »

I don't like the alleged short lifespan either, even though their childhood is (or was as of 2017 our time) significantly shorter than ours.

Image

That says to me that a keidran wannabe blacksmith can become an apprentice at age 6 or 7. Whereas for a human it would be more like 14. Takes about 7 years to become a journeyman, so the human is 21 and the keidran is 14. Takes another 7 years or so to become a master, so the human is 28 and has a good 20 years to (a) oversee a shop full of apprentices and journeymen, (b) improve his own skills even further, and (c) advance the craft itself.

... and the keidran is 21 and MAY have as long as TWO years left to do that.

It's the same for all other skilled crafts - the humans will simply outclass the keidran at every turn because at the point the keidran is getting old gray and feeble, the human is just starting the climb to his peak.

And other things. Military? We're told that basitin age like humans. Keith entered the military at what was it, age 7? That's probably typical, so assume Maddie did the same. She's a lieutenant. An officer, but a low-ranking officer. She's 18. Keith himself aside, I doubt if any of the generals are under 30; several of them are over 50. Many basitin senior officers have been officers longer than any of the keidran senior officers have been alive - and the humans aren't far behind the basitin in that regard.

The basic problem is that, compared to basitins or humans, the keidran simply don't live long enough to acquire advanced skills and knowledge - in any field.

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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#17 Post by Rafe »

Flora says she "didn't notice this painting here before". And if you look, the painting appears to have been covered by a cloth, which is now beneath it. It is also suspiciously dust-free. This all leads one to think that someone just uncovered it.

Maybe it was Rose (perhaps connected to the "detritus" comment). Maybe it's some intruder who left it for Trace to see. Either way, Trace has been affected by it. Without moving his eyes from the painting, he's apparently just remebered something significant. It's hard to guess, but you'd expect it to be something concerning Rose, Saria, or both. Perhaps he's just noticed something meaningful in the painting that he never saw before now, like a message to him from Saria. Maybe he just noticed that the painting shows Rose in clothes and appearance the way she only could have looked years after Saria died.

[EDIT] Something else occured to me that Trace may be looking at: The robe (or whatever) that Rose is wearing seems to be covered in runes. Maybe Trace can read them.

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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#18 Post by Bellhead »

I'd bet it was uncovered during Trace's memory burst, where everything was blowing around.

Now...
Warrl wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:37 am I don't like the alleged short lifespan either, even though their childhood is (or was as of 2017 our time) significantly shorter than ours.

snip

The basic problem is that, compared to basitins or humans, the keidran simply don't live long enough to acquire advanced skills and knowledge - in any field.
Are we assuming their learning abilities while young are similar to ours? With a shorter lifespan, or would be plausible to have skills and training take less time, and have information sink in a bit faster. Or, in contrast, humans and basitin have longer training and slower learning abilities, because their lives are so long.

Maybe?
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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#19 Post by Dadrobit »

Just popping in for the topic of lifespan. The most recent WOG is the following:

Image


I don't think I have it saved anywhere, but Tom has also mentioned that the end of life stage for Keidran is very very quick. So when a Keidran is dying of old age it's not a slow years long decent, but a quick fall from health. So that's at least partially why Rose still looks decent even for her advanced age. Though I have very little doubt that something is up with her as well as Euchre.
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:21 am I never liked the life expentancy difference and i think I am not the only one. Personal preferences for storytelling aside. It came from a "legal" joke that definitely has not aged well and it is not that funny to begin with. On the other hand it is a big deal if a whole species/civilization has such a small lifespan. How is culture and civilization supposed to form in such a small time, specially considering they have a similarly long infancy? Even if you ignore that it has to at least affect the characters interpersonal relations in some capacity. But it doesn't the subplot about New Trace worrying about Flora's lifespan was shot down, by Nora, in one page and Tom does not seems to have any intention of incorporating that idea into the lore or world building. Either he has some long term plan about it that i cannot fanthom or he is simply ignoring it. Personally i thinkg if it were shift from "hardly 30 years" to "around 50" there is still enough difference for it to be talking point in the comic. But is long enough time for it to be dismissed in most cases, of course that would meant some characters for it to make legal sense so it will be quite a drastic retcon.
Sorry for the long rant, I love the comic but this is one of my major complaints about the it.
Aye, I personally am from the same camp. I don't care if it's "legal" (and yeah, that "joke" REALLY didn't age well) or not. I don't particularly care if the body is "mature" or not. The fact of the matter is that a person who is only 11 years old is someone who still only has 11 years of life experience. They are mentally still just an 11 year old. Regardless of how much their matured body might push them towards sex, it's still inevitably an icky scenario.

In a hypothetical retcon, I don't think he even needs to pop it up to 50, 35-40 would do just as well. The important thing is throwing an extra couple years onto the current adult cast. Flora close to her twenties. Zen/Natani in their early to mid-twenties, etc.
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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#20 Post by SpottedKitty »

Bellhead wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:17 am I'd bet it was uncovered during Trace's memory burst, where everything was blowing around.
It was; I just looked back to page 1106. The painting is just behind Flora, and Rose's green robe is visible as the cloth blows away.
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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#21 Post by Rafe »

SpottedKitty wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:03 pm
Bellhead wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:17 am I'd bet it was uncovered during Trace's memory burst, where everything was blowing around.
It was; I just looked back to page 1106. The painting is just behind Flora, and Rose's green robe is visible as the cloth blows away.
You guys got it. Thanks for pointing that out.
Nothing involving intruders (probably, anyway). Still, I wonder where Rose is, and if she's been incapacitated somehow. And Where's Stoney? Is he still with Trace and Flora?
As far as what Trace has just discovered, I guess we'll have to wait to see.

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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#22 Post by Ddraig »

Rafe wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:39 pm
SpottedKitty wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:03 pm
Bellhead wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:17 am I'd bet it was uncovered during Trace's memory burst, where everything was blowing around.
It was; I just looked back to page 1106. The painting is just behind Flora, and Rose's green robe is visible as the cloth blows away.
You guys got it. Thanks for pointing that out.
Nothing involving intruders (probably, anyway). Still, I wonder where Rose is, and if she's been incapacitated somehow. And Where's Stoney? Is he still with Trace and Flora?
As far as what Trace has just discovered, I guess we'll have to wait to see.
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/1106/
The only curiosity I see is that if the cloth blew away (as it obviously did in 1106), how did it end up back under the painting for the most recent one? It doesn't look like it slipped off the side and piled up, or that it was originally under the painting (even in part - look at the windy panel in 1106), so how did it go from getting blown off the painting to being tucked under the end?
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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#23 Post by Eclipse »

Dadrobit wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:41 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:21 am I never liked the life expentancy difference and i think I am not the only one. Personal preferences for storytelling aside. It came from a "legal" joke that definitely has not aged well and it is not that funny to begin with. On the other hand it is a big deal if a whole species/civilization has such a small lifespan. How is culture and civilization supposed to form in such a small time, specially considering they have a similarly long infancy? Even if you ignore that it has to at least affect the characters interpersonal relations in some capacity. But it doesn't the subplot about New Trace worrying about Flora's lifespan was shot down, by Nora, in one page and Tom does not seems to have any intention of incorporating that idea into the lore or world building. Either he has some long term plan about it that i cannot fanthom or he is simply ignoring it. Personally i thinkg if it were shift from "hardly 30 years" to "around 50" there is still enough difference for it to be talking point in the comic. But is long enough time for it to be dismissed in most cases, of course that would meant some characters for it to make legal sense so it will be quite a drastic retcon.
Sorry for the long rant, I love the comic but this is one of my major complaints about the it.
Aye, I personally am from the same camp. I don't care if it's "legal" (and yeah, that "joke" REALLY didn't age well) or not. I don't particularly care if the body is "mature" or not. The fact of the matter is that a person who is only 11 years old is someone who still only has 11 years of life experience. They are mentally still just an 11 year old. Regardless of how much their matured body might push them towards sex, it's still inevitably an icky scenario.

In a hypothetical retcon, I don't think he even needs to pop it up to 50, 35-40 would do just as well. The important thing is throwing an extra couple years onto the current adult cast. Flora close to her twenties. Zen/Natani in their early to mid-twenties, etc.
I mean, I thought that joke was kind of cute, but it does seem fairly short-sighted of Tom to base Keidrian lifespans off that joke now that you mention it.
Rafe wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:39 pm And Where's Stoney? Is he still with Trace and Flora?
He's still with them. He's waiting just outside the nursery.

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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#24 Post by Technic[Bot] »

MuonNeutrino wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:54 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:21 am I do not remember Saria's age was ever stated. She liked them young or Traces likes em old.
Also Rose looks terrific for a 70 year old, which considering her shape shifting abilities might not be that surprising, come to think of it, have we ever seen an old Keidra? Naturally old I mean? In any case i think it is safe to assume they do not age linearly. People in real life do not either so there is no reason why they don't either.
Saria's age can be determined from the dates given on her tombstone combined with the current year, which we know from Maddie's letter.

As far as we know, Rose, Euchre, and Laura are the oldest keidran we've seen who we have even vague ages for. (There's been a couple of other old-looking keidran seen in passing, but not in the foreground.) Given that Tom's hinted that Euchre's lifespan might not be natural and that we don't know if Rose is aging naturally or not, Laura is probably the oldest reliable data point we have. Rose certainly does seem to be aging gracefully, for sure. Being covered in fur would obscure some of the more obvious signs of age, but she certainly doesn't seem to be frail or moving slowly/etc and her mind is obviously still sharp.
I never liked the life expentancy difference and i think I am not the only one. Personal preferences for storytelling aside. It came from a "legal" joke that definitely has not aged well and it is not that funny to begin with. On the other hand it is a big deal if a whole species/civilization has such a small lifespan. How is culture and civilization supposed to form in such a small time, specially considering they have a similarly long infancy? Even if you ignore that it has to at least affect the characters interpersonal relations in some capacity. But it doesn't the subplot about New Trace worrying about Flora's lifespan was shot down, by Nora, in one page and Tom does not seems to have any intention of incorporating that idea into the lore or world building. Either he has some long term plan about it that i cannot fanthom or he is simply ignoring it. Personally i thinkg if it were shift from "hardly 30 years" to "around 50" there is still enough difference for it to be talking point in the comic. But is long enough time for it to be dismissed in most cases, of course that would meant some characters for it to make legal sense so it will be quite a drastic retcon.
I personally doubt that the short lifespans came from the 'legal' joke; that fact seems to me to be far too fundamental of a element of the worldbuilding to have just been dropped in on a whim for the sake of a silly joke. I think it's far more likely that Tom had that in mind from the beginning and simply felt that was a good time to start hinting at that element to the readers. And I don't think that plot thread has been dropped completely. It hasn't been revisited in a while, but the characters have been rather busy on more immediate things. It feels to me that the resonances between that universe element and a) Trace's obsessive desire to protect his love interests at all costs, and b) Keith's issues with *not* having been able to protect people he cared about, are far too strong to not come up again at some point, given that both of them would normally be destined to vastly outlive their significant others. To put it another way, IMO it would be out of character for Trace and Keith if they *didn't* suffer angst about it at some point. It is, I suppose, possible that the main story of the comic might end before we *get* to that point, or other events might intervene, but I think that's far too strong of an emotional hook for plot elements for Tom to have introduced with no intention of revisiting.
That is my problem. The short lifespans seems like such an important and fundamental aspect of wordlbuilding. The whole Keidran culture and civilization would be shaped and influenced heavily by short lifespans but we have not seen any of that, nor in the way they relate to each other or in their culture. Of course as you point out that may be becasuse we have never been in a Keidran town so we really do not see much of of their culture and there are more pressing matter for the characters than discussing the minutiae of their homelands or their biology. But still it is a very important wordlbuilding elements that feels relegated to the background were it does not even impact the main story.
On the other hand that joke is over 16 years old at that time Tom was 17. It is clear Tom now has a clear idea of were he wants to take his story and the characters. Back then not so much, it sounds more like one of those silly-stupid jokes one makes as a teenager. Everyone makes those but I am not sure why Tom decided to roll with it after so many years.
The only thing I imagine Tom is trying to do with it is that at the end of the days both Keith and Trace will accept their partners passing. Instead of trying to rebel against what is very much the nature of life, showing the end of their character growth/development.

Speaking of legal jokes: If Saria was 28 at the time of her death and that was 5 years ago. Then Trace was 18 at the time and probably married Saria a year before and if I remember correctly Trace spend a year as her boyfriend before marrying...
Saria I expected this from anyone but you...
Warrl wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:37 am I don't like the alleged short lifespan either, even though their childhood is (or was as of 2017 our time) significantly shorter than ours.

-big snip-

That says to me that a keidran wannabe blacksmith can become an apprentice at age 6 or 7. Whereas for a human it would be more like 14. Takes about 7 years to become a journeyman, so the human is 21 and the keidran is 14. Takes another 7 years or so to become a master, so the human is 28 and has a good 20 years to (a) oversee a shop full of apprentices and journeymen, (b) improve his own skills even further, and (c) advance the craft itself.

... and the keidran is 21 and MAY have as long as TWO years left to do that.

It's the same for all other skilled crafts - the humans will simply outclass the keidran at every turn because at the point the keidran is getting old gray and feeble, the human is just starting the climb to his peak.

And other things. Military? We're told that basitin age like humans. Keith entered the military at what was it, age 7? That's probably typical, so assume Maddie did the same. She's a lieutenant. An officer, but a low-ranking officer. She's 18. Keith himself aside, I doubt if any of the generals are under 30; several of them are over 50. Many basitin senior officers have been officers longer than any of the keidran senior officers have been alive - and the humans aren't far behind the basitin in that regard.

The basic problem is that, compared to basitins or humans, the keidran simply don't live long enough to acquire advanced skills and knowledge - in any field.
Bellhead wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:17 am Are we assuming their learning abilities while young are similar to ours? With a shorter lifespan, or would be plausible to have skills and training take less time, and have information sink in a bit faster. Or, in contrast, humans and basitin have longer training and slower learning abilities, because their lives are so long.

Maybe?
Also that. I do not think Keidran have much time to acquire or produce much knowledge of any kind. You mention a Blacksmith but there are more time intensive professions out there: Politician for example, you require a lifetime to gather all the connections and knowledge to wield power. Or any academic pursuit for that matter, real life scientist spend their whole life working on some area and in universe we got magicians usually protrayed as the academic type. I imagine event the strongest Kiedran mage cannot hold his ground against an 80-year old human mage the difference in experience is abyssal.
As Mr Bell points out they would have to be some kind of geniuses capable of condensing decades of training and education in a couple of years. Which at teh end is pointless, if you can summarize 50 years of training into 10 if by that time you are almost death?
Dadrobit wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:41 am Just popping in for the topic of lifespan. The most recent WOG is the following:

-Anothe pretty large snip-

I don't think I have it saved anywhere, but Tom has also mentioned that the end of life stage for Keidran is very very quick. So when a Keidran is dying of old age it's not a slow years long decent, but a quick fall from health. So that's at least partially why Rose still looks decent even for her advanced age. Though I have very little doubt that something is up with her as well as Euchre.

-Auto snip-

Aye, I personally am from the same camp. I don't care if it's "legal" (and yeah, that "joke" REALLY didn't age well) or not. I don't particularly care if the body is "mature" or not. The fact of the matter is that a person who is only 11 years old is someone who still only has 11 years of life experience. They are mentally still just an 11 year old. Regardless of how much their matured body might push them towards sex, it's still inevitably an icky scenario.

In a hypothetical retcon, I don't think he even needs to pop it up to 50, 35-40 would do just as well. The important thing is throwing an extra couple years onto the current adult cast. Flora close to her twenties. Zen/Natani in their early to mid-twenties, etc.
I totally agree with you here. I think Tom's joke predates most of other examples by a couple years but it is like when for whatever reason an author has a character that supposedly ages much faster than humans, but it is chronologically 1 or something like that. It is serve little to no story purposes and is incredibly creepy. To say the very least.
A life expectancy of around 40, with the oldest individuals being 50 would work as well as it currently stand in the comic. It is still a notable difference between humans an Keidran but not so drastic for it to become the most importan characteristic of the latter. Basically for the time being it could be ignored in the comic without feeling like a major plot element is being overlooked. However some dates would have to be moved, not only to put some extra years to the cast but to make everyone meet in the same point in their lives.
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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#25 Post by Rafe »

Ddraig wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:48 pm ...The only curiosity I see is that if the cloth blew away (as it obviously did in 1106), how did it end up back under the painting for the most recent one? It doesn't look like it slipped off the side and piled up, or that it was originally under the painting (even in part - look at the windy panel in 1106), so how did it go from getting blown off the painting to being tucked under the end?
I noticed that too. It could be that we've found Rose. Far from being off somewhere, she might just be in the room with Trace and Flora. Euchre did impress on her that keeping Trace from discovering too much was very important. It might be even more important than keeping watch on the rest of the estate. The "detritus" comment (http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/1111/) showed only her shadow. She may not be visible to Trace and Flora (I wonder about Stoney, though.)

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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#26 Post by Ddraig »

Rafe wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:24 pm
Ddraig wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:48 pm ...The only curiosity I see is that if the cloth blew away (as it obviously did in 1106), how did it end up back under the painting for the most recent one? It doesn't look like it slipped off the side and piled up, or that it was originally under the painting (even in part - look at the windy panel in 1106), so how did it go from getting blown off the painting to being tucked under the end?
I noticed that too. It could be that we've found Rose. Far from being off somewhere, she might just be in the room with Trace and Flora. Euchre did impress on her that keeping Trace from discovering too much was very important. It might be even more important than keeping watch on the rest of the estate. The "detritus" comment (http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/1111/) showed only her shadow. She may not be visible to Trace and Flora (I wonder about Stoney, though.)
I don't think Rose is there; the other shadows around her are tentacle-things, which makes me think of Tall, dark, and foreshadowing
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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#27 Post by steelabjur »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:56 pm
MuonNeutrino wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:54 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:21 am I do not remember Saria's age was ever stated. She liked them young or Traces likes em old.
Also Rose looks terrific for a 70 year old, which considering her shape shifting abilities might not be that surprising, come to think of it, have we ever seen an old Keidra? Naturally old I mean? In any case i think it is safe to assume they do not age linearly. People in real life do not either so there is no reason why they don't either.
Saria's age can be determined from the dates given on her tombstone combined with the current year, which we know from Maddie's letter.

As far as we know, Rose, Euchre, and Laura are the oldest keidran we've seen who we have even vague ages for. (There's been a couple of other old-looking keidran seen in passing, but not in the foreground.) Given that Tom's hinted that Euchre's lifespan might not be natural and that we don't know if Rose is aging naturally or not, Laura is probably the oldest reliable data point we have. Rose certainly does seem to be aging gracefully, for sure. Being covered in fur would obscure some of the more obvious signs of age, but she certainly doesn't seem to be frail or moving slowly/etc and her mind is obviously still sharp.
I never liked the life expentancy difference and i think I am not the only one. Personal preferences for storytelling aside. It came from a "legal" joke that definitely has not aged well and it is not that funny to begin with. On the other hand it is a big deal if a whole species/civilization has such a small lifespan. How is culture and civilization supposed to form in such a small time, specially considering they have a similarly long infancy? Even if you ignore that it has to at least affect the characters interpersonal relations in some capacity. But it doesn't the subplot about New Trace worrying about Flora's lifespan was shot down, by Nora, in one page and Tom does not seems to have any intention of incorporating that idea into the lore or world building. Either he has some long term plan about it that i cannot fanthom or he is simply ignoring it. Personally i thinkg if it were shift from "hardly 30 years" to "around 50" there is still enough difference for it to be talking point in the comic. But is long enough time for it to be dismissed in most cases, of course that would meant some characters for it to make legal sense so it will be quite a drastic retcon.
I personally doubt that the short lifespans came from the 'legal' joke; that fact seems to me to be far too fundamental of a element of the worldbuilding to have just been dropped in on a whim for the sake of a silly joke. I think it's far more likely that Tom had that in mind from the beginning and simply felt that was a good time to start hinting at that element to the readers. And I don't think that plot thread has been dropped completely. It hasn't been revisited in a while, but the characters have been rather busy on more immediate things. It feels to me that the resonances between that universe element and a) Trace's obsessive desire to protect his love interests at all costs, and b) Keith's issues with *not* having been able to protect people he cared about, are far too strong to not come up again at some point, given that both of them would normally be destined to vastly outlive their significant others. To put it another way, IMO it would be out of character for Trace and Keith if they *didn't* suffer angst about it at some point. It is, I suppose, possible that the main story of the comic might end before we *get* to that point, or other events might intervene, but I think that's far too strong of an emotional hook for plot elements for Tom to have introduced with no intention of revisiting.
That is my problem. The short lifespans seems like such an important and fundamental aspect of wordlbuilding. The whole Keidran culture and civilization would be shaped and influenced heavily by short lifespans but we have not seen any of that, nor in the way they relate to each other or in their culture. Of course as you point out that may be becasuse we have never been in a Keidran town so we really do not see much of of their culture and there are more pressing matter for the characters than discussing the minutiae of their homelands or their biology. But still it is a very important wordlbuilding elements that feels relegated to the background were it does not even impact the main story.
On the other hand that joke is over 16 years old at that time Tom was 17. It is clear Tom now has a clear idea of were he wants to take his story and the characters. Back then not so much, it sounds more like one of those silly-stupid jokes one makes as a teenager. Everyone makes those but I am not sure why Tom decided to roll with it after so many years.
The only thing I imagine Tom is trying to do with it is that at the end of the days both Keith and Trace will accept their partners passing. Instead of trying to rebel against what is very much the nature of life, showing the end of their character growth/development.

Speaking of legal jokes: If Saria was 28 at the time of her death and that was 5 years ago. Then Trace was 18 at the time and probably married Saria a year before and if I remember correctly Trace spend a year as her boyfriend before marrying...
Saria I expected this from anyone but you...
Warrl wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:37 am I don't like the alleged short lifespan either, even though their childhood is (or was as of 2017 our time) significantly shorter than ours.

-big snip-

That says to me that a keidran wannabe blacksmith can become an apprentice at age 6 or 7. Whereas for a human it would be more like 14. Takes about 7 years to become a journeyman, so the human is 21 and the keidran is 14. Takes another 7 years or so to become a master, so the human is 28 and has a good 20 years to (a) oversee a shop full of apprentices and journeymen, (b) improve his own skills even further, and (c) advance the craft itself.

... and the keidran is 21 and MAY have as long as TWO years left to do that.

It's the same for all other skilled crafts - the humans will simply outclass the keidran at every turn because at the point the keidran is getting old gray and feeble, the human is just starting the climb to his peak.

And other things. Military? We're told that basitin age like humans. Keith entered the military at what was it, age 7? That's probably typical, so assume Maddie did the same. She's a lieutenant. An officer, but a low-ranking officer. She's 18. Keith himself aside, I doubt if any of the generals are under 30; several of them are over 50. Many basitin senior officers have been officers longer than any of the keidran senior officers have been alive - and the humans aren't far behind the basitin in that regard.

The basic problem is that, compared to basitins or humans, the keidran simply don't live long enough to acquire advanced skills and knowledge - in any field.
Bellhead wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:17 am Are we assuming their learning abilities while young are similar to ours? With a shorter lifespan, or would be plausible to have skills and training take less time, and have information sink in a bit faster. Or, in contrast, humans and basitin have longer training and slower learning abilities, because their lives are so long.

Maybe?
Also that. I do not think Keidran have much time to acquire or produce much knowledge of any kind. You mention a Blacksmith but there are more time intensive professions out there: Politician for example, you require a lifetime to gather all the connections and knowledge to wield power. Or any academic pursuit for that matter, real life scientist spend their whole life working on some area and in universe we got magicians usually portrayed as the academic type. I imagine event the strongest Kiedran mage cannot hold his ground against an 80-year old human mage the difference in experience is abyssal.
As Mr Bell points out they would have to be some kind of geniuses capable of condensing decades of training and education in a couple of years. Which at teh end is pointless, if you can summarize 50 years of training into 10 if by that time you are almost death?
Dadrobit wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:41 am Just popping in for the topic of lifespan. The most recent WOG is the following:

-Anothe pretty large snip-

I don't think I have it saved anywhere, but Tom has also mentioned that the end of life stage for Keidran is very very quick. So when a Keidran is dying of old age it's not a slow years long decent, but a quick fall from health. So that's at least partially why Rose still looks decent even for her advanced age. Though I have very little doubt that something is up with her as well as Euchre.

-Auto snip-

Aye, I personally am from the same camp. I don't care if it's "legal" (and yeah, that "joke" REALLY didn't age well) or not. I don't particularly care if the body is "mature" or not. The fact of the matter is that a person who is only 11 years old is someone who still only has 11 years of life experience. They are mentally still just an 11 year old. Regardless of how much their matured body might push them towards sex, it's still inevitably an icky scenario.

In a hypothetical retcon, I don't think he even needs to pop it up to 50, 35-40 would do just as well. The important thing is throwing an extra couple years onto the current adult cast. Flora close to her twenties. Zen/Natani in their early to mid-twenties, etc.
I totally agree with you here. I think Tom's joke predates most of other examples by a couple years but it is like when for whatever reason an author has a character that supposedly ages much faster than humans, but it is chronologically 1 or something like that. It is serve little to no story purposes and is incredibly creepy. To say the very least.
A life expectancy of around 40, with the oldest individuals being 50 would work as well as it currently stand in the comic. It is still a notable difference between humans an Keidran but not so drastic for it to become the most important characteristic of the latter. Basically for the time being it could be ignored in the comic without feeling like a major plot element is being overlooked. However some dates would have to be moved, not only to put some extra years to the cast but to make everyone meet in the same point in their lives.
The Keidran use a tribal or feudal system of government (as do the Humans, for that matter), and as far as the effects on their culture, the Wolves seem to have the most complex system of governance among the Keidran kinds (I seem to recall Sythe being related to a Duke...), yet look at what we've seen of them militarily. They come across as using more horde style swarming tactics than precise maneuvers, and leadership probably falls to blood relations (why else would someone like sythe be involved in the attack that brought B Team together?) It's also worth noting that life expectancy up to the 1900s wasn't much beyond that of Keidran in the comic (Life expectancy at birth was a brief 25 years during the Roman Empire, it reached 33 years by the Middle Ages and raised up to 55 years in the early 1900s).

Warrl
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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#28 Post by Warrl »

Life expectancy at birth was a brief 25 years during the Roman Empire, it reached 33 years by the Middle Ages and raised up to 55 years in the early 1900s
A statistic that is very deceptive and not to be taken on face value.

Infant mortality.

In the 1850s in the US, life expectancy for newborn boys was about 35... and for 5-year-old boys it was about 60.

steelabjur
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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#29 Post by steelabjur »

Warrl wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:29 am
Life expectancy at birth was a brief 25 years during the Roman Empire, it reached 33 years by the Middle Ages and raised up to 55 years in the early 1900s
A statistic that is very deceptive and not to be taken on face value.

Infant mortality.

In the 1850s in the US, life expectancy for newborn boys was about 35... and for 5-year-old boys it was about 60.
Even taking infant mortality into account. In 2016 Valentina Gazzaniga, a medical historian at Rome’s La Sapienza University, published research on more than 2,000 ancient Roman skeletons, all working-class people who were buried in common graves.The average age of death was 30. The effects of hard labor, lack of healthcare, and hygiene, are hardest on the common folk. They even showed diseases we would associate with later ages, like arthritis. The rich can naturally expect much longer lifespans (and who are the people we know the most about). Actually, it kinda makes me wonder how a well off Keidran might age and how one might live, given ready access to magic, medical care, hygiene, and a peaceful life.

aitaituo
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Re: Comic for June the 20th, 2020

#30 Post by aitaituo »

Life expectancy is a normalized mean average. Human life expectancy is best understood as a series of plateaus. If you're born, you have a good chance of dying, but if you make it a week, you'll most likely make it a year. If you make it a year, you'll most likely make it to five. If you make it to five you'll most likely make it ten and so on. Each plateau sees a considerable amount of deaths and by the time you get to the 35 year mark, about half have died from various causes. Modern medicine, or perhaps magic, drastically changes the math because children were historically the most likely to die from accident or disease. The modern era also reduced adult mortality, because a surprising proportion of those deaths were from homicide and poor work safety rather than from ordinary health related causes.
Bellhead wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:17 am
Warrl wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:37 am I don't like the alleged short lifespan either, even though their childhood is (or was as of 2017 our time) significantly shorter than ours.

snip

The basic problem is that, compared to basitins or humans, the keidran simply don't live long enough to acquire advanced skills and knowledge - in any field.
Are we assuming their learning abilities while young are similar to ours? With a shorter lifespan, or would be plausible to have skills and training take less time, and have information sink in a bit faster. Or, in contrast, humans and basitin have longer training and slower learning abilities, because their lives are so long.

Maybe?
Actually, a lot of studies have found that the peak value years of a laborer are in their late 40's to mid 60's. It varies by how physically strenuous and skilled the job is. A crop picker peaks pretty early. An office manager peaks pretty late. But in the (semi-)skilled professions, a laborer can seamlessly transition from the value of their own work to the value of managing or training less experienced workers. One wonders if in the medieval era this effect was further exaggerated by the higher mortality rate and by the overall lower percentage of the population engaged in non-farm labor. Regardless of the particulars, it's hard to imagine that keidran could ever catch up to humans without, you know, increasing the human mortality rate. Plus, human enslavement of keidran is not only a brain drain on the keidran, but frees up more humans for skilled professions.

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