Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#31 Post by Hulk10 »

I know dragons don't care but Reni should do more investigating.
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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#32 Post by steelabjur »

You know, thinking more on it, I bet those "Guardians" are illusion masked wolves. Think about it. Clovis is still there, in order to get home, he's going to have to use the portal in Riftwall and probably wouldn't want witnesses (especially if I'm right and he's going to try to break into the manor to get his men first and might need to run or use hostages to cover his escape).

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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#33 Post by Cpt. H.L. Rodney »

Hulk10 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:50 pm I know dragons don't care but Reni should do more investigating.
I agree, up to this point, Reni has been wasting time farting around ever since Brutus regained consciousness, when she should have gotten to work questioning the silly mutt for information on Clovis, and who he was working with in the attack (which would've been very important in busting a case of conspiracy and high treason from seer Brahn wide open). So far she has shown a small, notable deal of... dare I say it, incompetence as a defender of Edinmire, and these particular border territories of the Empire. Although I disagree to an extent on dragons not caring, and in Reni's case she does care, she's just young and a bit inept, and I'm going to bet five bucks she's a bit idealistic, which probably clouds her political judgement of the Greater Human Empire, and even more so the true nature of the current leadership of the Templar Order.

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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#34 Post by Hulk10 »

Cpt. H.L. Rodney wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:06 am
Hulk10 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:50 pm I know dragons don't care but Reni should do more investigating.
I agree, up to this point, Reni has been wasting time farting around ever since Brutus regained consciousness, when she should have gotten to work questioning the silly mutt for information on Clovis, and who he was working with in the attack (which would've been very important in busting a case of conspiracy and high treason from seer Brahn wide open). So far she has shown a small, notable deal of... dare I say it, incompetence as a defender of Edinmire, and these particular border territories of the Empire. Although I disagree to an extent on dragons not caring, and in Reni's case she does care, she's just young and a bit inept, and I'm going to bet five bucks she's a bit idealistic, which probably clouds her political judgement of the Greater Human Empire, and even more so the true nature of the current leadership of the Templar Order.
Tom basically says that dragons don't really care. At least Nora doesn't.
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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#35 Post by Ddraig »

Hulk10 wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:27 pm
Cpt. H.L. Rodney wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:06 am
Hulk10 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:50 pm I know dragons don't care but Reni should do more investigating.
I agree, up to this point, Reni has been wasting time farting around ever since Brutus regained consciousness, when she should have gotten to work questioning the silly mutt for information on Clovis, and who he was working with in the attack (which would've been very important in busting a case of conspiracy and high treason from seer Brahn wide open). So far she has shown a small, notable deal of... dare I say it, incompetence as a defender of Edinmire, and these particular border territories of the Empire. Although I disagree to an extent on dragons not caring, and in Reni's case she does care, she's just young and a bit inept, and I'm going to bet five bucks she's a bit idealistic, which probably clouds her political judgement of the Greater Human Empire, and even more so the true nature of the current leadership of the Templar Order.
Tom basically says that dragons don't really care. At least Nora doesn't.
iirc He said dragons are somewhat independent, objective parties (my words, not his). Nora, though, is a very old dragon and cares, but only about individuals and not groups. I'm not sure how much of that is my read on Nora and how much is what Tom has actually said, though.
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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#36 Post by AmigaDragon »

Cpt. H.L. Rodney wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:06 am
Hulk10 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:50 pm I know dragons don't care but Reni should do more investigating.
I agree, up to this point, Reni has been wasting time farting around ever since Brutus regained consciousness, when she should have gotten to work questioning the silly mutt for information on Clovis, and who he was working with in the attack (which would've been very important in busting a case of conspiracy and high treason from seer Brahn wide open). So far she has shown a small, notable deal of... dare I say it, incompetence as a defender of Edinmire, and these particular border territories of the Empire. Although I disagree to an extent on dragons not caring, and in Reni's case she does care, she's just young and a bit inept, and I'm going to bet five bucks she's a bit idealistic, which probably clouds her political judgement of the Greater Human Empire, and even more so the true nature of the current leadership of the Templar Order.
Reni has been waiting for Lt. Reed before continuing to properly question Brutus.
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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#37 Post by Bellhead »

I remember, from long ago, that Tom once (before my time) explained what the deal was with the Masks. Supposedly this is a game to them, too see which race would rule the world. Last I knew, Chaos was on the side of the humans, Neutral was for the keidran races and Order represented the Basitins. But, if they wanted to, they could trade with another. The dragons live independently of the Masks' game, and are free to do as they please. My interpretation at the time was that they're not unlike random events; they just are. They have their own agendas, separate from the Masks' game, where the races are all simply created.

That make any sense to anyone else?
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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#38 Post by Technic[Bot] »

MuonNeutrino wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 5:34 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 4:00 amHonestly I do not think the wolves, or anyone from that matter, came from the portal. Adira mentioned the portal connects to the other tavern far west. But she is a Snow Leopard I imagine the other Tavern is also run by snow mews in the other side of the continent. Moreover Isn't Edinmire really close to the wolf border? I think it is easier that the wolves simply teleported themselves, or walked, to Edinmire.
Well, the portal did *something* in this comic - it wasn't just sitting there, it went "THRUM", which to me says it was activated. And Adira'd just got through saying that the portal had been inactive since the war started, so having attention so obviously drawn to the portal suddenly doing something can't be an accident IMO.

As for geography, we don't know *exactly* where the other Riftwall tavern is, but Adira says it's "far in the west". And we have a map of the continent - Edinmire isn't near the wolf border, in fact it's on the other side of the continent from wolf territory, in the east next to tiger territory. (Which presumably explains its choice as the site for the meeting with the tiger envoys.) As such, it wouldn't be trivial for the wolves to get there - sure, one could imagine they'd been smuggled in on a ship, or somehow traveled across the continent without being detected, but it's a long way. (And if one could easily teleport the entire width of the continent, then the riftwall wouldn't be a particularly special thing, which the narration implies it is.) However, if the other Riftwall tavern is "far in the west", that could definitely suggest it being either in wolf territory or at least on the western borders of human territory, and as such could be a plausible way in for Clovis and his gang. We do have suggestions that the other tavern is also run by a snow leopard, but that doesn't necessarily preclude it being in or near wolf territory any more than Adira being a snow leopard precludes *her* side of the link being in or near human and tiger territory - snow leopards don't have a homeland of their own anymore, so finding them anywhere isn't really a stretch.
Yeah For whatever reason I had the whole continent mirrored in my head. Alas I still think the titular riftwall is more a way out of town than a way in. And we have seen Branh and Clovis on the same room which may indicate he and his posse used conventional means to meet the blonde megalomaniac.
Regarding the sister location I think we once had an sketch with Adira sister on the other side of the riftwall. And the considering snow leopard are commonly found in snowy areas I assumed the other tavern is west and north. However that is just an assumption as you say that does not mean the other tavern is not smack in the middle of wolf territory nor that Clovis did not used to come to EdinMire.
Cpt. H.L. Rodney wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:06 am
Hulk10 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:50 pm I know dragons don't care but Reni should do more investigating.
I agree, up to this point, Reni has been wasting time farting around ever since Brutus regained consciousness, when she should have gotten to work questioning the silly mutt for information on Clovis, and who he was working with in the attack (which would've been very important in busting a case of conspiracy and high treason from seer Brahn wide open). So far she has shown a small, notable deal of... dare I say it, incompetence as a defender of Edinmire, and these particular border territories of the Empire. Although I disagree to an extent on dragons not caring, and in Reni's case she does care, she's just young and a bit inept, and I'm going to bet five bucks she's a bit idealistic, which probably clouds her political judgement of the Greater Human Empire, and even more so the true nature of the current leadership of the Templar Order.
Another thing that bothers me about Reni is: What is she doing there? As a dragon she might have little authority over other dragons but she is a Human Royal. What is a princess doing helping guard a village so near a border when there is a war going on? I mean she definitely can take care of herself but still.
Bellhead wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:04 am I remember, from long ago, that Tom once (before my time) explained what the deal was with the Masks. Supposedly this is a game to them, too see which race would rule the world. Last I knew, Chaos was on the side of the humans, Neutral was for the keidran races and Order represented the Basitins. But, if they wanted to, they could trade with another. The dragons live independently of the Masks' game, and are free to do as they please. My interpretation at the time was that they're not unlike random events; they just are. They have their own agendas, separate from the Masks' game, where the races are all simply created.

That make any sense to anyone else?
I that that is pretty much it. According to what i gather unpublished lore, the canonicity of which might change without notice. The dragons existed before the masks hence they have little if no authority over them. A personal thoery of mine is that since the mask are only demi-gods. They could not make life out of thin air and had to somehow base their races from Dragons. That is why Reni's grandpa dragon was able to conceive children with human royals. that is also why, if not restrictions are applied, interbreeding is possible.
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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#39 Post by Warrl »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:19 am Another thing that bothers me about Reni is: What is she doing there? As a dragon she might have little authority over other dragons but she is a Human Royal. What is a princess doing helping guard a village so near a border when there is a war going on? I mean she definitely can take care of herself but still.
Well, people with royal titles are of varying importance. For a real-world example, every person in Saudi Arabia who is descended from the first Saudi king thereof - Abdulaziz Ibn Saud, lived 1875-1953, reigned 1921-1953 - is legally a prince or princess. Ibn Saud had about 100 children. The country still practices polygamy; while contraceptives are legal, women in general are not well-educated in their availability or use, and estimates are that only about 1/3 of married women of child-bearing age use them. As one result, there are today an estimated 15,000 princes and princesses. I suspect that there's no concern about the 8th son of a 23rd son of an 18th son of a 40th son being at risk as a member of the police force or even the military.

Now as for Reni... she's a Princess, but is she legally in line for the throne at all? She could be blocked from inheriting because she's female, OR because she's a dragon not a human. Dragons apparently don't have a formal government for her family's kingdom to ally with, and she's not exactly prime marriage bait to forge or solidify connections with another human family. (As one factor, my guess is that - relative to being mature enough for mating - she's older than Maeve but not as old as Karen. If I'm right, she's probably something like a 4th cousin 7 times removed of the current monarch.)

Spoiler! How the Nth cousin X times removed stuff works
From each person separately, count the number of generations back to the common ancestor. The LOWER number (minus one) determines the Nth cousin. The DIFFERENCE in the numbers of generations back to the common ancestor is the "removed" part.

Example:
A -> B -> C -> D -> E
A -> Z -> Y -> X -> W -> V -> U

What's the relationship between E and U?

The shorter path back to the common ancestor A is from E; it has 4 steps, so the relationship between E and anyone from W (who is also 4 steps from A) to U starts with them being third cousins. The path from U back to the common ancestor A is 2 additional steps, so the relationship between E and U is third cousins twice removed.

And then... she's near the human-tiger border. Not the human-wolf border. The war has so far been between the humans and the wolves; relations between humans and tigers were apparently cordial enough that the wolves had a reasonable concern of a human-tiger alliance against them. In other words, Reni is not in an area where conflict is expected. Oh, and of course she's more capable than the average princess of taking care of herself in a trouble spot and of getting herself away from a trouble spot.

Next question: why was the Riftwall Tavern allowed to exist there, with its door to the war zone on the other side of the kingdom possibly functional - not known to be rendered nonfunctional and beyond being repaired from the other end? Why was said door not under constant armed guard, or with magical alarms on it that sound somewhere else such as the guard headquarters when anyone comes through, or secured SOMEHOW?

Seriously, that door should be in the wall of a dedicated shed, with lots of arrow-slits in the walls and magical alarms active any time there's reason to suspect violence might be going on at the other end. In which circumstances they should also lock the shed doors, so that anyone coming through can be inspected by the guard before being permitted to exit the shed.

Or the door should be permanently destroyed.

Who's at fault for this poor security? Everyone who's been the head mage of the Edinmire area, or a commander over such a mage, since the door was first created. Including both Trace and Keiren. And possibly Nora. Not Reni, she's not that good at magic yet.

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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#40 Post by Ddraig »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:19 am[snip]
Cpt. H.L. Rodney wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:06 am
Hulk10 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:50 pm I know dragons don't care but Reni should do more investigating.
I agree, up to this point, Reni has been wasting time farting around ever since Brutus regained consciousness, when she should have gotten to work questioning the silly mutt for information on Clovis, and who he was working with in the attack (which would've been very important in busting a case of conspiracy and high treason from seer Brahn wide open). So far she has shown a small, notable deal of... dare I say it, incompetence as a defender of Edinmire, and these particular border territories of the Empire. Although I disagree to an extent on dragons not caring, and in Reni's case she does care, she's just young and a bit inept, and I'm going to bet five bucks she's a bit idealistic, which probably clouds her political judgement of the Greater Human Empire, and even more so the true nature of the current leadership of the Templar Order.
Another thing that bothers me about Reni is: What is she doing there? As a dragon she might have little authority over other dragons but she is a Human Royal. What is a princess doing helping guard a village so near a border when there is a war going on? I mean she definitely can take care of herself but still.
My understanding is that while she's technically human royalty, no one really looks at it as a serious status (edit: Warrl beat me to this and illustrated the idea better). She's (afaik) an 'adult', so given that she's outside any real power structure, she's free to move about where she pleases. She also has no real authority, so she has neither the responsibility nor the capability to affect the war in a meaningful manner, even if you lay aside that it isn't exactly clear which side she should support.

As for why she's in Edinmire, it seems to me that she's there because that's where she was before the war kicked off and didn't want to leave what she felt were her commitments there (a decision definitely not affected by the presence of a certain member of the Guard). iirc the Dragons are neutral parties in any conflicts unless paid a literal fortune, so that should protect her even if the city itself was threatened (or, at least, that might be the status she's used to even if she doesn't really have it any more due to her involvement in the Guard and the city's defense). It's also not on the threatened border, so there's even less reason for Reni to bother leaving
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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#41 Post by aitaituo »

Warrl wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:54 am *Saudi royalty stufff*

Now as for Reni... she's a Princess, but is she legally in line for the throne at all?
My take was that the "Royal Dragon" title is a special honorific, passed down or duplicated in the direct (dragon) line from the first one. Presumably, the first Royal Dragon is still alive. It's unclear whether it's a normal title that comes with an estate or vassals. Obviously, it's an unusual situation and they probably came up with some ad hoc rules or would come up with them (in the name of meaningful battle!) if it ever appeared Reni was the next in line, assuming the human kingdom doesn't use agnatic, jure uxoris, or other male-only succession.

But it's pretty unlikely she would ever be close to inheriting even if her claim is valid and it doesn't require Saudi craziness to make her remote. Her grandfather bred with an unspecified female royal, not a king or queen. Let's say she was the daughter of a reigning king. She didn't inherit. That means the next king after her grandparent's generation was her great-uncle. Each direct descendant of him takes priority over Reni and if her grandmother had older siblings then their descendants also take priority. Normal family sizes alone puts as many as 50 people ahead of her.

Now remember that dragons live extremely long times. Three generations back for Reni could be a lot more human generations back for all those royals ahead of her in line.

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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#42 Post by Esn »

tony1695 wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:18 am
BadFoMo wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:05 am I'm probably going to feel stupid again, but how did they get word that the Wolfs came through there?
Riftwall Tavern was apparently famous for the portal within, and was named for such. Given that it was linked to a place 'far to the west', that would almost surely place it near wolf territory. With the war, the odds of it falling into belligerent wolf hands' is pretty good.
So, I see nobody has yet noticed the reference on that page to "OTHER riftwalls" that the tavern riftwall could lead to. So it may well both be the source of the wolf invasion, as well as the escape route for Trace's group at the end of this part of the story (if it can temporarily be made to go to a riftwall other than the one that the wolves came from).

I too am very suspicious of why this portal was not under some sort of constant guard, given how apparently well-known it had been before it went dark.

As for why Reni is in Edinmire, there is an implication that she may have gone there without official permission and "undercover", I'm guessing because she felt stifled in the capital:
http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/898/
And she does also say herself that she's "not really royalty".

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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#43 Post by AmigaDragon »

Warrl wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 4:54 am Now as for Reni... she's a Princess, but is she legally in line for the throne at all? She could be blocked from inheriting because she's female, OR because she's a dragon not a human. Dragons apparently don't have a formal government for her family's kingdom to ally with, and she's not exactly prime marriage bait to forge or solidify connections with another human family. (As one factor, my guess is that - relative to being mature enough for mating - she's older than Maeve but not as old as Karen. If I'm right, she's probably something like a 4th cousin 7 times removed of the current monarch.)
Reni is 20, Karen is 16. While relative to dragon lifespans she's still just a baby, I think she could already be at a matable age.
Next question: why was the Riftwall Tavern allowed to exist there, with its door to the war zone on the other side of the kingdom possibly functional - not known to be rendered nonfunctional and beyond being repaired from the other end? Why was said door not under constant armed guard, or with magical alarms on it that sound somewhere else such as the guard headquarters when anyone comes through, or secured SOMEHOW?

Seriously, that door should be in the wall of a dedicated shed, with lots of arrow-slits in the walls and magical alarms active any time there's reason to suspect violence might be going on at the other end. In which circumstances they should also lock the shed doors, so that anyone coming through can be inspected by the guard before being permitted to exit the shed.

Or the door should be permanently destroyed.

Who's at fault for this poor security? Everyone who's been the head mage of the Edinmire area, or a commander over such a mage, since the door was first created. Including both Trace and Keiren. And possibly Nora. Not Reni, she's not that good at magic yet.
Why was the the tavern allowed to exist? People like to eat and get drunk. In a time of war, I agree that something should have been done, either guarding, alarming or blocking a potential entry point like the riftwall doorway, even when known to be inactive for some time (pretty vague on how long it's actually been dark(implying it normally was lighter)). Moving it might not be an option, nor destruction, it might cause too much damage to the tavern.
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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#44 Post by Hulk10 »

Regardless I have a bad feeling about the next chapter.
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Re: Comic for March 7th, 2020: Chapter 20 Epilogue

#45 Post by Bellhead »

Hulk10 wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:40 pm Regardless I have a bad feeling about the next chapter.
We all do. [censored] already hit the fan, and we don't even know how hard. This could, quite literally, end the world in a worst-case scenario.
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