Comic for December 10th, 2019: It's Time to Party!

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Re: Comic for December 10th, 2019: It's Time to Party!

#31 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Neutral Smith wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:49 am Not lacking, just a case of https://theculturetrip.com/north-americ ... n-english/
What it actually means: It can either mean ‘caught red handed’ or that someone has put a stop to your plans. ‘Ya nos cayó el chahuistle’ is one of those phrases so intricately linked to Mexican culture that it’s unlikely to be understood by other Spanish speakers – ‘chahuistle’ is a type of fungus that attacks the corn plant and the word has its roots in Nahuatl.
Well Google Translate is really terrible when dealing with Nahuatl and idioms. Anyhow In this context the expression means: "Some great evil has befallen upon our heroes"
Personally i had hoped from some problem from the inside of the manor fro example Dark Trace. But it seems like this will be a siege from the outside. But perhaps Dark Trace might still have an appearance.
BadJoke wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:13 pm I just hope Tom worked up something a bit better than last times. Because he clearly has two big flaws when it comes to writing his story: planning in the long run and making functional villains. And here we're heading towards a mix of the two... ouch.

Tom is a "panster" as they say. He writes the plot as he goes (it's pretty visible if you consider how much change has been made by comparison to where the story started from, and how the patreon commissions seem to affect the main story through plot and background details), which is not a bad thing in itself, it makes for very good characterization and development, which is why the more "social" part of the comic is so captivating. But when it comes to planning an actual plot... it's bad.
And so we end up with nebulous antagonists, heroes getting away of the main conflict (they're literally running away from the war), a lack of clarity about Natani's case (which may be partially responsible for the "forum wars" that unfold every time his/her identity is brought upon), an integration of Zen in group B who was very clumsy, a travel on boat far too long (when some of the character development on it could have been used for later times, on land), a hard to follow and lengthy zigzagging between characters in the manor (not dissimilar on what happened with the boat precisely)...

The villains... can any of us name a villain that, in 16 years, did anything interesting or plot relevant? The only ones worth mentioning are the basitin generals and Carver (and while interesting the later can't be called "exceptional" by any means), and none of them are Templars themselves. All we have as the great antagonistic force is a bunch of guys in shadows that put in action convoluted plans conveniently out of sigh so we can't see the holes in it... We just had the master Seer execute that whole false flag affair, of questionable interest (were the tigers so predisposed to say no that you needed to take such a risk as pulling out such plan? Because being discovered would been having them definitely turning against you...) and big risk taking (politically, but also personally, you don't put yourself close to a massive clawed person who will consider you a menace to take down the moment your plan is in motion; what if she hadn't believed him after she grabbed him and killed or wounded him?).

Frankly, last time we saw our antagonists enact any plan, it was to send two dummies ring at the door of the magically protected mansion of Trace Legacy (aka "Sauron Adolf the First")... two guys far too weak to do anything against group A alone if they ever managed to get in, but still Templars, powerful troops hardly replaceable (when you have mercenary wolves you could send in), when the master seer is supposed to know Old!Trace pretty well (no need to test the defenses). [Unless of course said guys were wolves in disguise...]


PS: Red is probably uneasy because Sythe is hugging him while naked. He can't be outdrinked by Natani, keidrans have a very weak alcohol resistance (unless he really can't handle it).
I have to agree Tom writing is all over the place at best. His real talent lies at drawing and of course characterization, paraphrasing someone else on the forum:
Someone wrote: Some of Tom characters feel more real than, well real people, with dreams, fears and hopes thing you hardly notice in real persons
Sorry again, I always seem to lose the source to that quote. But in any case even if he were a storytelling genius over the course of 16 years a lot can happen and changes to the story are bound to happen.

On the other hand I think for Natani the lack is clarity is by design rather than by accident since setting the record in any direction is bound to cause a lot of fallout and maybe lose a bit of his fans. So i doubt we will get anything "concrete" on that matter until a few years after the comic is finished. For now let anyone believe what they want.

Regarding the villains i think the key issue here is that there is not a big bad guy that we can kill a make everything good again. All parties have their own intentions and methods, Brahn wants to take over the world, Carver wants to break his curse, Euchre and Master Spy do thier own stuff, Mary wanted revenge and for the masks this is just a game. They might collaborate from time to time but they are not a single cohesive unit. Personally i like this type of conflict as I find it more interesting but we are more used to the single and monolithic objective and or bad guy in most stories.
But yet again most of the villains plans do make little sense. Ephemural wanted to make Trace and Flora fall in love and then break them because that would, for some reason, prevent his race from being wiped out. It might had made sense to him but not to me.
AmigaDragon wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:00 pm Socializing with all these "fleabags" should help reduce Red's racism to tolerable levels (and Raine's second form (and between) is a big help in working at it). Sythe has pretty much forgotten it for now and Maren just has to admit that they aren't so bad (perhaps that she even likes Sythe). Karen is perhaps one of the most accepting of them.

I see Flora is retracting her claws now, just slapping Eric (can we get her a squirt bottle? :mrgrin: ).

After spiking Mike in the face/chest/whatever like that, did Karen run over to apologize and help him up? While competitive (obvious from the big spike), she's not mean. Maren is a bit amused, though I don't think necessarily mean either.
Esn wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:49 pm Is that a snorkeling tube next to Raine?
From the yellow in the water, was thinking maybe Eric's blond hair but it is too far away from the tube, unless it's a foot or more long before a 90 degree bend up. I have no other ideas what/who it is (wouldn't Raine notice if her bikini bottom were missing? ...I'll just meet you over there in the box).

Other than a suggestion from Brahn, I can't think of much reason for Clovis to be attacking or sneaking into the mansion, unless there's a strong enough attachment to Brutus to want him back. From what we've heard, I doubt it's for his brains, he doesn't strike me as that bright.
I wonder why Tom decided to have flora punch others instead of clawing at them. She is a cat after all.
Anyhow I think this is part of Clovis side of the deal. He got the amulet and he still has not paid fully for it. Or perhaps he is still female and is looking for a way to reverse Nora's curse, if anyone knows that is Trace. Or even if the curse is lifted but Trace probably has more magic items and amulet in his manor than in the whole region combined. Or all of the above.
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Re: Comic for December 10th, 2019: It's Time to Party!

#32 Post by AmigaDragon »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:45 am ...looking for a way to reverse Nora's curse, if anyone knows that is Trace.
Old Trace would know (if it's possible for a human to undo an ancient dragon's spell). New Trace might be able to find the appropriate information in his library if they have enough time to search before continuing on their journey, or another crisis arises.
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Re: Comic for December 10th, 2019: It's Time to Party!

#33 Post by Bellhead »

AmigaDragon wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:12 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:45 am ...looking for a way to reverse Nora's curse, if anyone knows that is Trace.
Old Trace would know (if it's possible for a human to undo an ancient dragon's spell). New Trace might be able to find the appropriate information in his library if they have enough time to search before continuing on their journey, or another crisis arises.
And thanks to Clovis' meeting with Brahn, we know that Clovis knows Trace is in town. But, as Clovis is likely to remember Old Trace, would he have reason to believe a keidran-hating murderous dictator would reverse a curse set by a dragon, who has a crush on the guy? Seems more than a little unlikely that's his motive. Natani, maybe. Going by the yellow eyes in the woods outside their bedroom last night, that'd be my guess.
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Re: Comic for December 10th, 2019: It's Time to Party!

#34 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Bellhead wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:29 am
AmigaDragon wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:12 am
Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:45 am ...looking for a way to reverse Nora's curse, if anyone knows that is Trace.
Old Trace would know (if it's possible for a human to undo an ancient dragon's spell). New Trace might be able to find the appropriate information in his library if they have enough time to search before continuing on their journey, or another crisis arises.
And thanks to Clovis' meeting with Brahn, we know that Clovis knows Trace is in town. But, as Clovis is likely to remember Old Trace, would he have reason to believe a keidran-hating murderous dictator would reverse a curse set by a dragon, who has a crush on the guy? Seems more than a little unlikely that's his motive. Natani, maybe. Going by the yellow eyes in the woods outside their bedroom last night, that'd be my guess.
I think he has several good reasons to attack the place.
First he has to pay branh for the amulet and lets not forget Clovis is but a small fry compared to the defacto grand templar. Better to get on the guy good side.
Besides he knows Trace is in town and definitely not acting like any of his olds selves. A good moment to strike and get rid of such a dangerous person once and for all. Not to mention the contents of the Manor are of interest to any mage and anyone willing to make a profit. Last but not least there is Brutus, he might not be the brightest bulb around but he is still a loose knot and I believe Clovis likes him more than he is willing to admit. And then there is Nat. He might as well pick him up for later
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Re: Comic for December 10th, 2019: It's Time to Party!

#35 Post by AmigaDragon »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:28 amAnd then there is Nat. He might as well pick him up for later
I don't think anyone outside groups A & B who cares knows where Natani is, and anyone outside who knows where, doesn't know who she is (not that she's famous for anything worth knowing).
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Re: Comic for December 10th, 2019: It's Time to Party!

#36 Post by BadJoke »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:45 am
BadJoke wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:13 pm I just hope Tom worked up something a bit better than last times. Because he clearly has two big flaws when it comes to writing his story: planning in the long run and making functional villains. And here we're heading towards a mix of the two... ouch.

Tom is a "panster" as they say. He writes the plot as he goes (it's pretty visible if you consider how much change has been made by comparison to where the story started from, and how the patreon commissions seem to affect the main story through plot and background details), which is not a bad thing in itself, it makes for very good characterization and development, which is why the more "social" part of the comic is so captivating. But when it comes to planning an actual plot... it's bad.
And so we end up with nebulous antagonists, heroes getting away of the main conflict (they're literally running away from the war), a lack of clarity about Natani's case (which may be partially responsible for the "forum wars" that unfold every time his/her identity is brought upon), an integration of Zen in group B who was very clumsy, a travel on boat far too long (when some of the character development on it could have been used for later times, on land), a hard to follow and lengthy zigzagging between characters in the manor (not dissimilar on what happened with the boat precisely)...

The villains... can any of us name a villain that, in 16 years, did anything interesting or plot relevant? The only ones worth mentioning are the basitin generals and Carver (and while interesting the later can't be called "exceptional" by any means), and none of them are Templars themselves. All we have as the great antagonistic force is a bunch of guys in shadows that put in action convoluted plans conveniently out of sigh so we can't see the holes in it... We just had the master Seer execute that whole false flag affair, of questionable interest (were the tigers so predisposed to say no that you needed to take such a risk as pulling out such plan? Because being discovered would been having them definitely turning against you...) and big risk taking (politically, but also personally, you don't put yourself close to a massive clawed person who will consider you a menace to take down the moment your plan is in motion; what if she hadn't believed him after she grabbed him and killed or wounded him?).

Frankly, last time we saw our antagonists enact any plan, it was to send two dummies ring at the door of the magically protected mansion of Trace Legacy (aka "Sauron Adolf the First")... two guys far too weak to do anything against group A alone if they ever managed to get in, but still Templars, powerful troops hardly replaceable (when you have mercenary wolves you could send in), when the master seer is supposed to know Old!Trace pretty well (no need to test the defenses). [Unless of course said guys were wolves in disguise...]


PS: Red is probably uneasy because Sythe is hugging him while naked. He can't be outdrinked by Natani, keidrans have a very weak alcohol resistance (unless he really can't handle it).
I have to agree Tom writing is all over the place at best. His real talent lies at drawing and of course characterization, paraphrasing someone else on the forum:
Someone wrote: Some of Tom characters feel more real than, well real people, with dreams, fears and hopes thing you hardly notice in real persons
Sorry again, I always seem to lose the source to that quote. But in any case even if he were a storytelling genius over the course of 16 years a lot can happen and changes to the story are bound to happen.

On the other hand I think for Natani the lack is clarity is by design rather than by accident since setting the record in any direction is bound to cause a lot of fallout and maybe lose a bit of his fans. So i doubt we will get anything "concrete" on that matter until a few years after the comic is finished. For now let anyone believe what they want.

Regarding the villains i think the key issue here is that there is not a big bad guy that we can kill a make everything good again. All parties have their own intentions and methods, Brahn wants to take over the world, Carver wants to break his curse, Euchre and Master Spy do thier own stuff, Mary wanted revenge and for the masks this is just a game. They might collaborate from time to time but they are not a single cohesive unit. Personally i like this type of conflict as I find it more interesting but we are more used to the single and monolithic objective and or bad guy in most stories.
But yet again most of the villains plans do make little sense. Ephemural wanted to make Trace and Flora fall in love and then break them because that would, for some reason, prevent his race from being wiped out. It might had made sense to him but not to me.

I think the big problem here is that Tom keeps focusing on stuff he has no talent for and by doing so he only wastes time and energy for a “meh” result.
He keeps trying to come up with epic plots and complicated situations when he clearly can't deliver either. He should focus on characterization and inter-relational drama and keep the overall plot simple. The most important in a story is the characters and when you're focused on them the plot is completely secondary. Simplicity isn't a flaw.


Here we have a war driven by racial hatred and cultures clashing. And group A and B, who are entirely made of complex and lovable characters; so much that they can fill entire arcs to the brink with tension and emotion with just a little scenaristic push: the arguments on the Narela started with a fire, and the conflicts in the forest only needed the actions of a lonely assassin.

Do we really need some zany Illuminati plot with that? We already have quite enough source of drama here, and if betrayal and conspiracy are needed it doesn't have to be insanely complicated. Everyone hates everyone, each is ready to back-stab the others, organizations battle for power, people fight for their racial views... here you have it. Let the simple, full of conflict plot unfold and adapt as you go.

Seriously, was the plot of the Basitins' island arc, aka the best one to date, really that complicated? The templars' plan was a simple “corrupt everyone's minds”, all conflicts were character driven and mostly due to world-view differences, the minor villains were developed enough to be understandable (making it all more epic and emotionally impacting) and the top of political intrigue was a dispute of judicial procedures, clear but fascinating anyway. And funnily enough the big mastermind of the arc had solved it in advance by just preparing for a thousand scenarios and one became reality. Done. No big convoluted plan needed.
(Master Spy intervening counts for nothing. He was put here as a last minute patch to avoid posting two pages who seemed too controversial.)


And thinking about it... why does Tom avoids every opportunity to characterize his villains? No surprise they're so flat and flavorless, he never gave them any attention. So much secrecy doesn't make for any suspense, just complete confusion. A shame when you see what he can do with the smallest background character or just with his patreon illustrations.
Heck, he made Clovis more interesting with a few patreon pictures than with an entire album. Because he didn't put any plot in and just let his knack for characters guide his hand.
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Re: Comic for December 10th, 2019: It's Time to Party!

#37 Post by Cosmacelf »

BadJoke wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:13 pm
(Master Spy intervening counts for nothing. He was put here as a last minute patch to avoid posting two pages who seemed too controversial.)
What's the backstory on that? What seemed too controversial?

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Re: Comic for December 10th, 2019: It's Time to Party!

#38 Post by BadJoke »

Cosmacelf wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:41 pm
BadJoke wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:13 pm
(Master Spy intervening counts for nothing. He was put here as a last minute patch to avoid posting two pages who seemed too controversial.)
What's the backstory on that? What seemed too controversial?
The two pages that should have originally appeared can be found on Tom's DeviantArt account, where he explains that his original idea (Natani undressing Flora in front of the Arms General to make him lose consciousness out of shock and nosebleed) ended up sounding pretty bad to himself (no one influenced him). Girls using their bodies as tools, their gender used for a looney tunes level joke... so he chose to scrap it and write the master spy intervening after the girls defeat to solve the situation (basically a deus ex machina).
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Re: Comic for December 10th, 2019: It's Time to Party!

#39 Post by Cosmacelf »

BadJoke wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:25 pm
Cosmacelf wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:41 pm
BadJoke wrote: Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:13 pm
(Master Spy intervening counts for nothing. He was put here as a last minute patch to avoid posting two pages who seemed too controversial.)
What's the backstory on that? What seemed too controversial?
The two pages that should have originally appeared can be found on Tom's DeviantArt account, where he explains that his original idea (Natani undressing Flora in front of the Arms General to make him lose consciousness out of shock and nosebleed) ended up sounding pretty bad to himself (no one influenced him). Girls using their bodies as tools, their gender used for a looney tunes level joke... so he chose to scrap it and write the master spy intervening after the girls defeat to solve the situation (basically a deus ex machina).
Oh man, now I've gotta check out all the retcons there!

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Re: Comic for December 10th, 2019: It's Time to Party!

#40 Post by CrRAR »

Reading through the thread, I just have to say the slow burn storytelling really works in the comic’s favor to provide the subtlety enough for Tom to articulate some mighty fine character exposition and examine the grander themes the characters are necessary to. The story weaves personal tales tails :P in heavier among overarching narrative and, yes, I agree with the observation that the story is subject to improvisation (like most things), but I think that where branching and alternate possibilities do occur overall it reconverges where Tom desires minor arcs to conclude. I think of his process a bit like “choose your adventure” where the fine details are subject to change, much to the credit of spontaneity, but the overall message and themes remain intact.

Points cannot be made without first piecing together building blocks required to express them fluidly. This takes time and some meandering. Tom, effectively, is painting a mural looking through a microscope lens; molding fine details that lend to the overall texture of the great fabric that will be the quilt that is Twokinds. I do think - as described - this can make the large details muddy, I think that the story is also a victim to the time it has spanned (for who well knows it was ever expected to run this long) as well, not just for pacing but also for how vision has matured about the series over the years.

I can’t help but be reminded of the lazer focused story telling the movie Reservoir Dogs is, covering such a brief encounter compared to, say, biography type films that cover an entire person’s lifetime in roughly similar film-standard runtimes.

Twokinds simultaneously explores BOTH these levels of magnification, micro and macro levels, to achieve heart-touching larger-than-life personal moments and yet exposition wide enough to provide real-world social satire/commentary.
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