Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

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Ddraig
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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#16 Post by Ddraig »

JayJayForce wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:01 am Well, now I'm getting all sorts of Eldritch Horror vibes. Trace, what did you do!?
Rafe wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:50 amReni looks a little annoyed about something. Maybe she thinks Maddie is trying to cover something up. Maybe she senses that someone, or something, is trying to interfere with Maddie's memory.
That looks more like concern to me. Like she's worried that something really bad is going on.
Rafe wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:50 amMaybe she's asking Maddie if she would mind if she could look through her memories, and maybe even see what it is that's blocking them. Maybe she means to go have a look for herself behind the door, which, I assume, means another fight with the stone guardian (a little more evenly matched, perhaps). Attempting the last one would probably get Rose involved.
Sounds to me like she wants to do a mental dive. If she wanted to look at it in person, she'd probably try and ask Trace first. Think she suspects that something is messing with Maddie mentally though and might even be dangerous for her. Doubt the stone guardian would me much of a threat to her though. Whatever caused the teleport however might worry her.
In addition to those two options on what Reni means, I think there's also the possibility that she means medically (her offer/suggestion does come immediately after Maddie's statement that 'Maybe I was a little more beaten up [...] than I thought'). Personally, I'm leaning toward the medical look, then the mental dive. While she could be asking about looking at the guardian (which she almost talks about as if she's familiar with what it is) or door herself, I think that's the least likely of the options. She'd be asking Rose or, more likely, Trace that instead of these two.
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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#17 Post by Hayate »

CrRAR wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:12 pmI think the request is asking polite permission into her memories. It may be an ethical thing to ask or maybe part of dragon code or just common courtesy. It would kind of be an invasive thing to do unannounced. :shock:

If it were for permission to look behind the door, would she need to ask Maddie's permission?
Yeah, it makes the most sense that she is asking Maddie to look through her memories. Likely suspicious that they were tampered with or something. But I will also use the “would you mind if I...” for stuff that I don’t necessarily need anyone’s permission to do.
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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#18 Post by Vintage »

Hadn't considered the possibility that the room was making her forget :o
TheMouse wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:22 pm In the room is just a plaque with :redhair: s name.
Lol perfect. Make it another April Fool's Day joke :P
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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#19 Post by Vera Accalia »

This... seems very very bad to me. Something in that room put a mental block on her, seemingly the kind that causes harm the more you try to pick at those memories. Something tells me that if Reni goes through Maddie's memories, it could prove very dangerous for Maddie, especially if she would be consciously following Reni's progress and could see those memories.

Reminds me of that one Doctor Who episode with
Spoiler!
the Doctor Donna incident, where a mental block was put on Donna, and if she remembers, it would kill her

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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#20 Post by Dadrobit »

This page brings up a few questions for me. First, is this similar or even the same magic that has affected Trace? Is Reni going to peer inside and see a similar scenario if perhaps a bit more complete overall? Could Reni having access to a similar but more contained case of amnesia be able to reverse engineer the magic and use it to fix both of them? (very unlikely, but a possibility)

And second, is that nosebleed an intentional result of that particular magic? As in that would happen to anyone who had encountered it and attempted to recall it? A potential concern I have is that we know that the basitin race are susceptible to strong magic having a negative affect on their cognitive abilities. So is this what happens when strong magic is applied directly to their mind? How much worse could this get for Maddie? A very tragic train of thought indeed.
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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#21 Post by imalbert »

My first thought was that Maddie may have sustained a brain injury. Given the tendency for Basitins to shrug off seemingly non life threatening injuries, she would not have believed anything to be wrong. Perhaps, Reni wants to give Maddie a full checkup before proceeding further.
CrRAR wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:12 pm Yes, a nearer question for me is will there be consequence to dragon-grade snooping of the memory for Reni... or for Maddie for that matter? The nosebleed could be related to the Brutus... viewing? lol ...but maybe not. Maybe something to further discourage recollection? Hopefully this doesn't end with these two sputtering unintelligible things in the infirmary.
Or, like Karen, she also has a thing for dragons.

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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#22 Post by AndreRhineDavis »

So there were a bunch of things I wanted to say, but it looks like most of them have been said already :)

Firstly, my first reaction was to remember how in manga and anime, it's a common trope to represent an erection or sexual attraction with a nosebleed. Like, if a guy suddenly sees a hot girl, to portray that he is super turned on, he will be portrayed as suddenly having a nosebleed. So my first thought was "lol, Maddie's got a nosebleed over Brutus :P". But I quickly realised that didn't fit the tone of the page and it clearly isn't the intention here xP

Secondly, Reni says "You two are very lucky to have survived a stone guardian!". This doesn't indicate any surprise or confusion as to what that creature was or why such a creature would be in Trace's estate; rather Reni talks as if these "stone guardians" are standard security measures that she is familiar with. She doesn't even say something like "I'm going to talk to Trace or Rose to express my concern that such a dangerous security feature is lying around in the estate for two kids to accidentally run into and nearly get killed!!!". Instead, she seems pretty nonchalant about the whole thing, and is more concerned with Maddie's mind than what the hell that thing was even doing there in the first place. I guess I just find this unusual, and I would like to know just what Reni knows about these stone guardians.
Ddraig wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:36 pm
JayJayForce wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:01 am
Rafe wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:50 amMaybe she's asking Maddie if she would mind if she could look through her memories, and maybe even see what it is that's blocking them. Maybe she means to go have a look for herself behind the door, which, I assume, means another fight with the stone guardian (a little more evenly matched, perhaps). Attempting the last one would probably get Rose involved.
Sounds to me like she wants to do a mental dive. If she wanted to look at it in person, she'd probably try and ask Trace first. Think she suspects that something is messing with Maddie mentally though and might even be dangerous for her. Doubt the stone guardian would me much of a threat to her though. Whatever caused the teleport however might worry her.
In addition to those two options on what Reni means, I think there's also the possibility that she means medically (her offer/suggestion does come immediately after Maddie's statement that 'Maybe I was a little more beaten up [...] than I thought'). Personally, I'm leaning toward the medical look, then the mental dive. While she could be asking about looking at the guardian (which she almost talks about as if she's familiar with what it is) or door herself, I think that's the least likely of the options. She'd be asking Rose or, more likely, Trace that instead of these two.
My interpretation when I read the comic was that Reni was asking to physically examine Maddie, to give her some "dragon scan" to check out her nosebleed and physical health and see if Maddie is physically ok. As Ddraig said, this request to "take a look" comes immediately after Maddie's nosebleed is pointed out and she says that she more injured than she thought. I didn't even think of the other two possibilities until I read the thread here.

And yeah, as has also been said, remember that Reni couldn't actually see into Trace's pre-amnesia memories. I actually find this pretty surprising, since it seems like Trace's memories are not so much"removed" as they are "suppressed" (otherwise he couldn't have those flashes of remembering that he has). I imagine that they're still up in his head somewhere, manifesting as the black smoke hallucination, just like Natani's pre-soulbreak self is still in their head somewhere manifesting as Girl Natani. I would expect something like dragon mindreading to be "objective" enough to see all of Trace's memories and mind, not just the parts consciously accessible to Trace himself, but it seems that Reni was unable to access (and in fact seemed completely oblivious to) Trace's suppressed memories and the black smoke hallucination in his mind, instead only able to remember what Trace himself can consciously remember, and only aware of the amnesia inasmuch as Trace's first memories are all fragmented and broken and in the middle of his life.
I therefore wonder whether Reni would be able to see any "suppressed memories" in Maddie's mind, or only just see the fragmentation left behind *from* such magical mind-meddling.
I also wonder whether the room itself magically caused her to forget, or whether the image was so traumatic that her mind simply blocked it out. Either way, the implications are disturbing.
Dadrobit wrote: Sun Jul 28, 2019 5:13 am This page brings up a few questions for me. First, is this similar or even the same magic that has affected Trace? Is Reni going to peer inside and see a similar scenario if perhaps a bit more complete overall? Could Reni having access to a similar but more contained case of amnesia be able to reverse engineer the magic and use it to fix both of them? (very unlikely, but a possibility)

And second, is that nosebleed an intentional result of that particular magic? As in that would happen to anyone who had encountered it and attempted to recall it? A potential concern I have is that we know that the basitin race are susceptible to strong magic having a negative affect on their cognitive abilities. So is this what happens when strong magic is applied directly to their mind? How much worse could this get for Maddie? A very tragic train of thought indeed.
Oh God, remember Vehra? I really don't want anything bad to happen to Maddie :(. [censored] fam, this is getting dark :(
TheMouse wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:22 pm In the room is just a plaque with :redhair: s name.
This made me lol :D
<haha react>

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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#23 Post by CyMoahk »

Everyone's talking about how Maddie's memory is being repressed... I guess I'm splitting hairs, but I see small but important differences between magic that
1. prevents a memory from being formed (properly or at all)
2. tampers with the permanent version of a memory
3. protects a memory from being accessed
4. erodes a memory over time

I bring this up because, if option 3 is true, then Reni is playing a VERY dangerous game. That is, Maddie's untrained an unsuccessful attempt at accessing her memory has triggered the magic to resist enough for a nosebleed, i.e. she's only accessing a small amount of the memory, so she gets a small reaction. If Reni is able to access the entire memory, that could be at the cost of a huge amount of physical collateral damage... And I lean toward option 3 because Maddie didn't get a nosebleed until she tried to recall that memory. Anyone of the other options could cause the nosebleed if simply "touching" the magic gives the effect of a nosebleed, but if it's 3 then I'm really worried that the damage scales with the force/success of access.

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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#24 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Oh the irony. Three layers of defenses and all foiled by those meddling kids and her dragon!*
Has Trace decided to add a simple lock to the last door I imagine none Maddie would have seen nothing. But were is the fun in that? Anyhow I think Old Trace had a penchant for flair. A much more simple spell , like the door not physically manifesting/appearing to all non authorized personnel. You know like harry potter or something. Would be much more effective than his perceptual field and stone golem not to mention much more discreet, if you have too much security you are making it obvious you have something worth protecting behind all those defenses.

Regarding Reni wording. I imagine she was talking about scrambling Maddie brains taking a peek at her recent memories. I do not think that would be dangerous, as a dragon I suppose she knows how to disable mental magic barriers. However i am still be worried about Maddie, if the nosebleed i,s as she said, due to the golem fight she might have cracked the base of her skull, and if the blood is coming from something neurological then she is likely having a stroke. Neither a good prospect
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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#25 Post by Rafe »

I don't think anything Maddie or Karen did could have opened those doors. If you remember how things happened in that scene [ http://twokinds.keenspot.com/comic/1054/ ], The doors stayed closed during pretty much the whole stone-guardian fight scene. Maddie gets flying-kicked into the wall, ending up face down on the floor, and as she just said "pretty disoriented". The guardian was about to punch Karen, who was trying to distract it.

Right at that moment, Trace removed the restrictions on Rose, and the doors crashed open, and Karen and Maddie are teleported. Either Trace removing the restrictions did it, or more likely, it was Rose herself that opened the doors.

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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#26 Post by JayJayForce »

AmigaDragon wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:22 pm
JayJayForce wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 10:01 amWhatever caused the teleport however might worry her.
"Whatever" is Rose, she directly told Trace.
Yes, but Reni and them don't know that. All they know is they stumbled into a secure area and were attacked by a stone guardian before being teleported into the Dungeons.
Rafe wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:52 amRight at that moment, Trace removed the restrictions on Rose, and the doors crashed open, and Karen and Maddie are teleported. Either Trace removing the restrictions did it, or more likely, it was Rose herself that opened the doors.
Yeah, that's the impression I got as well. Something inside opened the doors.

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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#27 Post by AndreRhineDavis »

Schrodinger wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:25 pm ... whatever Maddie saw was damning enough to warrant being placed behind three separate layers of protection by Trace ...
Technic[Bot] wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:35 am Three layers of defenses and all foiled by those meddling kids and her dragon!
Forgive me for being slow on the uptake, but what's the third layer?
There's the door/room being obscured by a perception filter, there's the stone guardian, and what else?

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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#28 Post by Insomniac »

Being quite familiar with plot points like this, my supposition goeth thusly: Whatever Maddie saw, it's enchanted in such a way that it blocks memory of it, similar to how the hallway is enchanted so people can't find it in the first place, and trying to remember is what caused the nosebleed. Reni is concerned for Maddie, and wants to look in her memories to see if she's subject to that enchantment and/or knows that, as a dragon, she can overpower it and see what Maddie saw. Boom.
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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#29 Post by Yastreb »

I think Reni is asking permission to look into Maddie's mind. Maybe she also wants to be sure Maddie is not lying when she says that she can't remember. Let's hope that if there is some kind of mental booby-trap that damages Maddie whenever those memories are accessed, Reni can sense it on time and stop before Maddie is badly hurt.

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Re: Comic for July 27, 2019: Flawed Recollection

#30 Post by Schrodinger »

amenon wrote: Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:58 pm This is a properly unpleasant page for me, both because I think it's halfway evoking some earlier memory of a really visceral instance of the same [censored]/nosebleed trope from some other piece of media I've seen that was very eeeeugh, (ironically, I can't seem to place it :p), and because the fact that something is interfering with Maddie's mind or memories is just... very heebie-jeebies-inducing in its own right, and the execution is... chilling. She's talking about it, and yet seems completely clueless to the effect herself.

But mostly the mental thing. Eeeeugh.
Possibly one of the most subtle uses of eldritch horror I've ever seen. For whatever reason, what Maddie saw can't be properly recalled. Something in the light, a shadow on the floor, a blurred image that refuses to clear. The memory itself is fighting her and causing her harm. And yet, she's still completely unaware of it.
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