Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

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Tetrahedron
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Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#1 Post by Tetrahedron »

Image

Sorry, I know, I am a slow thinker when it comes to a stories plot, but I don't get it. How should this help?
A slave collar? Rose could also say: This is broom. If you are wolf, I beat you with it. So change back, if you don't want to be beaten.

I think, I missed something. Please help me and explain...


Edit: Better : This is potato bag. :potatoes:
If you are wolfy, I will throw potato at you.

Please take it with humor! :wink:

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Eclipse
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#2 Post by Eclipse »

*kink intensifies*

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AndreRhineDavis
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#3 Post by AndreRhineDavis »

Tetrahedron wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 9:51 am
Sorry, I know, I am a slow thinker when it comes to a stories plot, but I don't get it. How should this help?
A slave collar? Rose could also say: This is broom. If you are wolf, I beat you with it. So change back, if you don't want to be beaten.

I think, I missed something. Please help me and explain...
I agree with you, I don't think this method is very helpful.
Rose is basically saying like "You have trouble swimming, eh? Let's throw you in the ocean, then you'll have to swim, cause if you don't you'll drown".
It's not like Raine is lazy or doesn't have the incentive to try and change, Raine wants nothing else more than to fix this problem! It seems like what's stopping her (aside from a lack of practice/training) is a psychological block, due to anxiety/fear/stress/etc. Rose is right that a big part of the problem is how Raine conceives of her ability; that instead of thinking of it as her having this ability to change forms, she sees it as this "curse", as if this "evil wolf" is inside of her as a separate being to her, and that she is vulnerable to it taking her over.

With this in mind, it seems to me that a good starting point would be to help Raine develop a better conception of her ability. Not to give Raine more anxiety/fear/stress by basically being like "change now, or else you'll suffer". If you have to tell her to just "try really hard to change", at least do it based on positive rewards for success, not negative punishment for failure. But like I said, I doubt this would work, because there already are rewards for success and punishments for failure, both socially in the world around her, and in her own mind. She already feels like not being able to control her ability is a "punishment", you don't need to add more punishment to it.

Then again, Rose's plan could be not as obvious as what she seems to be implying here... there could be other factors to this that she's not letting Raine (or us as the audience) know...

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Rafe
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#4 Post by Rafe »

What I'm curious about is just what having a "Keidran shape" means.

Does it mean that you are for all physical attributes a Keidran? is your body completely a functioning Keidran body, with all the advantages and disadvantages? Would she be every bit as Keidran as her father was human when transformed? Presumably if you are still a "human with a Keidran shape", you would still have all the magic abilities you had in human form (otherwise you couldn't change back).

Raine already demonstrated this when she, still in wolf form, fooled Carver, and threw him way beyond his teleportation target. But could she be as effective against a skilled magic user?

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#5 Post by MuonNeutrino »

Huh? :?

I have to agree with the others here, I don't see how this is supposed to help. Raine's problem isn't motivation, it's understanding. Rose quite correctly notes that part of the problem is the skewed way Raine thinks of her ability as a curse, which just makes it even more incongruous to turn around and offer up the collar as a 'solution'. She already has plenty of reasons to not want to be a wolf, it's not like adding another changes much of anything. (In fact, given that so far her transformations has been depicted as being tied to her emotional state, giving her another reason to be afraid of her ability seems actively counterproductive!) Like Tetrahedron said, Rose might as well be offering to stand over her with a stick and poke her if she changes into a wolf.

"No being wolf!" *poke* "Ok, how do I stop being a wolf?" "No being wolf!" *poking intensifies*

I actually kinda *want* Raine to refuse. A slave collar? We know what those are, what they do to people. I don't want to see her like that, and I don't see how it could help.

I wouldn't normally think this of Rose, but it almost makes it feel like she has some kind of ulterior motive or something. This doesn't make sense, and Rose ought to know that, so why is she offering it? Is this actually some kind of test? To see if Raine really is so desperate that she'd even agree to something that nonsensical? Or, perhaps, as a way to make Raine see how deeply she's allowing her fear of her ability to affect her, if it makes her consider accepting something so crazy even for a moment?

On a completely different note, it makes perfect sense that the mansion would have slave collars in its stores, but it's interesting to see that they don't all look the same. No clunky metal shackles for slaves on the Grand Templar's elegant estate! Of course, there's no reason they'd *have* to all be identical looking, just a minor bit of worldbuilding.
Rafe wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 10:53 amWhat I'm curious about is just what having a "Keidran shape" means. Does it mean that you are for all physical attributes a Keidran? is your body completely a functioning Keidran body, with all the advantages and disadvantages? Would she be every bit as Keidran as her father was human when transformed?
The way the ability has been described and depicted, it seems so, yes. Note that Raine is bound by the limitations of not being able to do magic without crystals in keidran form. The reason she can still change back even in wolf form, at least if we go by Rose's description here, is because for her and Euchre the ability doesn't require any mana - it's not like she's incapable of magic in keidran form, it's just that as a keidran she can't absorb mana from the environment the way a human can, so in retrospect it makes perfect sense that she can still use an ability that doesn't require any mana. (Note that she is *not* still in her wolf form when she messes up Carver's teleportation, but has shifted back.) So, it seems she *does* fully take on all of the advantages and disadvantages of keidran form.
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#6 Post by Piece_of_Paper »

Does Rose know about the broken shackle? It still has some effects to :raine: Raine while it's slowly repairing itself? (I think.)
Maybe Rose can see/discover what the shackle does to or for Raine's :raine: form before it was broken.

The Slave's Collar sounds similar to Raine's :raine: shackle ...
Kind of surprised it hasn't come up yet. :o
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#7 Post by Eclipse »

I could be off base here, but I don’t think the point is to “poke her with a stick until she stops being a wolf”. In fact, I don’t think Rose expects Raine to break out of the collar at all. I think she wants Raine to admit to herself that the wolf form is a part of her and not some “curse”. Raine’s problem is an issue of perspective, and the best way to correct that is to put her in a situation where she’ll continually fail until her perspective changes. Positive reinforcement won’t work in this scenario, she doesn’t feel she’s in control of herself so how can she be incentivized that way? Granted, this is a very extreme and morally questionable method of accomplishing that and I’m not sure this is the best way of doing that (and it seems like a thinly veiled excuse to shoehorn in a BDSM fetish), but there’s no real nice way to do that.

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#8 Post by Panther »

OMG ; Rose's face when she's saying about the slave collar . Guessing that it's all bad memories for her , and maybe worse ............ (;_;) (;_;)
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#9 Post by BadJoke »

Wow now that's NOT a way I'd like to learn anything. And poor Raine isn't good at handling stress. It's just bad for her.
Just way for Evals to learn there's a full stock of slave collars in the manor, he'll run to the mountain screaming.

Maybe Rose as some plan more developed behind that "proposition"... but if not it'll be nice to see Red intervene, or prove he can be more compassionate and supportive.

Now it would be a good occasion to see how those collars affects the mind from an internal point of view. We saw of Evals changed when collared, but not what he experienced into his mind... We may see it here with Raine!... And it may well be super awful.
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#10 Post by xellos »

Huh.

This seems like the kind of last-ditch thing that comes up when the protagonist has to learn how to do something RIGHT NOW or die. But that doesn't really fit Raine's situation. She wants to learn this, but there's not really a consequence of her taking time to learn the proper mindset over months instead of days. Other than waking up as a hybrid, but given her traveling companions she's hardly the most heretical thing to the Templars if they all get found.

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#11 Post by aitaituo »

One thought is that Raine has the yips. A slave collar may force her to just transform on command.

A second thought is that Rose clearly has little besides contempt for Euchre and did absolutely nothing to be friendly towards Raine. Her demeanor towards her is not familial, it's cold and professional, just like she is towards everyone else except current Trace. People are known to seek vicarious revenge. Do we know slave collars only work on keidran?

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#12 Post by Tendo »

I wonder, does this mean that Euchre and Rose could have gotten out of the collars if they were ever forced into them by turning into a human to avoid their effects? Although it's not clear just when Rose learned this ability, it was likely after Trace got her anyway.

But as others mentioned, don't the collars sap your free will and make you obedient? We saw that Keidran could still have some amount of free will as long as it was not towards a human with them on with Mike and Evals, but if a human did not want a Keidran to escape, would the collar's mind-controlling effects make them unable to try to turn into a human then? And if so, would their owner have to actually know they have this ability and explicitly forbid it, or would that be a loophole if he doesn't know they can do that?

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#13 Post by SomeBody »

Don't get it. Best rational I can think of is that she actually does want a weapon to kill trace with, and an obedient slave bound to her sidesteps any remaining restrictions. As a learning tool it definitely seems worse than useless.

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#14 Post by Eclipse »

xellos wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 5:20 pm Huh.

This seems like the kind of last-ditch thing that comes up when the protagonist has to learn how to do something RIGHT NOW or die. But that doesn't really fit Raine's situation. She wants to learn this, but there's not really a consequence of her taking time to learn the proper mindset over months instead of days. Other than waking up as a hybrid, but given her traveling companions she's hardly the most heretical thing to the Templars if they all get found.
They don't have months. Brahn is trying to break into the estate to get to Trace, and she can't even walk in her hybrid form. So she very likely would be dead if she took that much time to learn.

Also wow at how pretty much everyone agrees that this is a messed up idea and doesn't understand the reason. Tom's got some 'splaining to do.

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#15 Post by steelabjur »

Piece_of_Paper wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 2:06 pm Does Rose know about the broken shackle? It still has some effects to :raine: Raine while it's slowly repairing itself? (I think.)
Maybe Rose can see/discover what the shackle does to or for Raine's :raine: form before it was broken.

The Slave's Collar sounds similar to Raine's :raine: shackle ...
Kind of surprised it hasn't come up yet. :o
Raine's shackle simply suppressed her magical abilities which kept her from changing.

A Templar Slave collar only effects Keidran, forcing obedience, so if she's human it won't effect her, but if it does effect her, she'll simply have to turn herself human enough and it won't. At least that's what Rose is telling her, but the issue is Raine sees her "wolf-self" (for want of a better term) as separate from her "human-self", I bet no matter how human she makes her appearance, there's always a bit of Keidran for the collar to work on, which I think is the lesson Rose is trying to teach; two sides of a coin is still a coin.

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