Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

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Eclipse
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#16 Post by Eclipse »

steelabjur wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 11:27 pm Raine's shackle simply suppressed her magical abilities which kept her from changing.

A Templar Slave collar only effects Keidran, forcing obedience, so if she's human it won't effect her, but if it does effect her, she'll simply have to turn herself human enough and it won't. At least that's what Rose is telling her, but the issue is Raine sees her "wolf-self" (for want of a better term) as separate from her "human-self", I bet no matter how human she makes her appearance, there's always a bit of Keidran for the collar to work on, which I think is the lesson Rose is trying to teach; two sides of a coin is still a coin.
This was something I was thinking too, is Raine even completely human when she's in her human form? I would guess not, she's the child of a human and a Keidran so she probably has DNA of both regardless of which form she's in and so the collar would work on her regardless. Which goes back to what I was saying earlier, I don't think Rose expects her to take the collar off, she expects her to realize that her wolf side is part of her.

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Kyrit
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#17 Post by Kyrit »

Things Rose has had to listen to Raine say;
- "I was sleep walking. It was the wolf."
- "Don’t shift all the way… Don’t shift all the way…"
- "Sigh... back to dog legs."
- "I've lived in fear of this curse my whole life"
- "Are you out of your mind, old wolf?! "

Honestly? Rose probably hates that her own flesh and blood, her own cousin, is seeming so negative, so racist toward her own kind (even if Raine is technically 100% human). Rose starts out looking at Raine fondly. "Hello, dear." with a soft look on her face. Curiosity when Raine show interest in magic. Then over the course of the past few pages as Raine actively makes it seem like the wolf side of her is bad she seems to get more and more irritated, the color fading away from her eyes again, pupils becoming slit instead of rounded, and then eventually fading again fully. I think it's fair to say that her opinion of Raine drastically declined as they continued to talk. And I really don't blame her. I'm sure Rose has been through a lot, and now when she starts reaching out to help she has to listen to "the wolf did this, the wolf did that. I mean, I'm looking at a wolf right here trying to help me, but the wolf side of me is obviously bad!"

Yes, it's possible that maybe she decided "Well, I suppose if she's stuck in wolf form, I could just use her to fight Trace" if she is going down that route, but that's not how I see it. I see it as someone that's personally being offended by the way Raine refers to her Keidran form as a curse (being that Rose is 100% wolf). She's already agreed to help out so she's going to, but a bit more spitefully, and honestly she is right in that the key is making Raine accept that she is the wolf rather than it being a separate entity. I feel like that last line of dialog is us seeing the sassy Rose come through, with added on layers of spite.

Rose has also had to be around Trace for all these years after Saria died. That can't be good for her own mental health, so it honestly doesn't surprise me that she'd come off as off the walls at times like this.

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#18 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Ok this reminds me a story a professor told me.
He is currently an electrical engineer but a couple decades ago he got a simple electrician diploma at high School. The last exam is the relevant part, in order to graduate you had to analyze the whole laboratory setup, breakers, fuses boxes wirings and loads and Touch the ground. If you knew what you were doing, you know you went to classes paint attention and all that good stuff you won't feel anything as as normal human is around the same voltage as electrical ground, in general. But if you made a mistake and touched the live wire, well you would get zapped by 120/220 v and fail the course....

So Rose is trying to do something like that. But without teaching her beforehand. Honestly I am doubting Rose intentions at the moment. Maybe she just wants to get even at his cousin. He almost got her executed so taking his daughter as a slave might feel like a just punishment in her mind. I really hope I am wrong...

--Edit:
Please do not touch any electrical prong when power is on. Some further reading for the curious : IT IS NOT SAFE TO TOUCH THE NEUTRAL PRONG
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JohnTheWysard
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#19 Post by JohnTheWysard »

I should go back through the discussions and see if this has already been suggested but...

Accept your inner wolfness!

Your father can be fully human, and fully kiedran. Sure, he's vulnerable to the slave collar as a wolf, but he's worked around that. Why not you!?

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#20 Post by Cosmacelf »

If this was some kind of trick, Rose wouldn’t have told Raine that is was a slave collar.

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#21 Post by Dadrobit »

Just a quick note to those saying that the whole sink or swim methodology is a bit harsh/extreme. Tom did this intentionally, he mentioned that living with Evil Trace has somewhat warped Rose's moral compass. And personally, I think this is fairly right in line with her character. Remember, this is a person who in her youth thought it was a funny prank to stage a mugging of Euchre at knifepoint. She's never exactly been a paragon of kind virtues. :mrgrin:
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#22 Post by MuonNeutrino »

Dadrobit wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 8:51 amJust a quick note to those saying that the whole sink or swim methodology is a bit harsh/extreme. Tom did this intentionally, he mentioned that living with Evil Trace has somewhat warped Rose's moral compass. And personally, I think this is fairly right in line with her character. Remember, this is a person who in her youth thought it was a funny prank to stage a mugging of Euchre at knifepoint. She's never exactly been a paragon of kind virtues. :mrgrin:
My problem isn't necessarily that it's harsh, which can definitely fit with her current character, but just more that it doesn't make *sense* to me. I don't have an issue with Rose suggesting a harsh, sink-or-swim solution, but this doesn't seem like a solution. I don't understand how it's supposed to help, how adding one more reason to the pile of reasons Raine has to not want to be a wolf is supposed to change anything when that's not what her problem is. She already doesn't want to be a wolf, she just doesn't know how, and I don't see how this would aid with that. Rose can be harsh, but she's not stupid, which is why I'm confused why she's suggesting something that seems so unhelpful and wondering if she actually has something else in mind.
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#23 Post by Cosmacelf »

Dadrobit wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 8:51 am Just a quick note to those saying that the whole sink or swim methodology is a bit harsh/extreme. Tom did this intentionally, he mentioned that living with Evil Trace has somewhat warped Rose's moral compass. And personally, I think this is fairly right in line with her character. Remember, this is a person who in her youth thought it was a funny prank to stage a mugging of Euchre at knifepoint. She's never exactly been a paragon of kind virtues. :mrgrin:
When did that happen? I don’t remember that...

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#24 Post by Shockwave07 »

When Rose said Raine wouldn't like it, she was serious!

...And I wonder if the Templar variety works anything like the one Eric used before... *shivers*

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#25 Post by TheMouse »

Shockwave07 wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 7:41 pm When Rose said Raine wouldn't like it, she was serious!

...And I wonder if the Templar variety works anything like the one Eric used before... *shivers*
It seems likely that slave collars are generally the same, regardless of "brand".

The problem with all of the "Rose is way out of line" comments is that the very first step of teaching Raine how to control her talent is convincing her that she can control it. The collar isn't a teaching aid, it's not a stick without a carrot. It's closer to tossing a baby bird out of the nest to show it that it can fly, but with the added safety net of being able to pluck the silly thing out of the air if it ain't able to wing it just yet.

This isn't all that different from Natani's little vision quest in her own mind. Forcing someone to confront a part of themselves and accept that it is, in fact, part of them isn't malicious or cruel. Raine has to accept that she has this talent and that it can be consciously controlled. She's seen it and it's been described, in Rose and Euchre respectively, but she hasn't internalized that she can control her shifting. If thngs were all safe and happy, Rose could spend months teaching Raine little by little. Unfortunately, she doesn't have the luxury of time, with the storm whirling around outside the relative peace of the estate. They have days, at best, not months, before things go to [censored] again and she might need to have at least a basic grasp of her abilities to avoid becoming just another casualty.

Is it nice and gentle? No. Nice and gentle is what should have happened if Euchre and/or Mary were worth a damn as parents. But Rose has to break a lifetime of misunderstandings and fear, and in very short order. If you want to blame anyone for this mess, and how Rose is trying to handle it, blame Euchre. He's clearly known where Raine is this whole time, he knows how to control the talent, he's able to project himself wherever he pleases. He could have been teaching her at any point instead of leaving it up to his cousin to un [censored] the mess he made.
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#26 Post by steelabjur »

TheMouse wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 9:18 pm
Shockwave07 wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 7:41 pm When Rose said Raine wouldn't like it, she was serious!

...And I wonder if the Templar variety works anything like the one Eric used before... *shivers*
It seems likely that slave collars are generally the same, regardless of "brand".
It wouldn't surprise me if the Templar are the primary producer of the collars, given the nature of the item in question and the Templars position as the premier Human racist/magic school. They probably have a bunch of students churning them out as part of their training.

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#27 Post by AndreRhineDavis »

TheMouse wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 9:18 pm Is it nice and gentle? No. Nice and gentle is what should have happened if Euchre and/or Mary were worth a damn as parents. But Rose has to break a lifetime of misunderstandings and fear, and in very short order. If you want to blame anyone for this mess, and how Rose is trying to handle it, blame Euchre. He's clearly known where Raine is this whole time, he knows how to control the talent, he's able to project himself wherever he pleases. He could have been teaching her at any point instead of leaving it up to his cousin to un [censored] the mess he made.
You know, I had always thought of Euchre as more or less of a good guy. Like sure, he and Sirus manipulate things behind the scenes, but we've generally been presented with the picture that he's working towards the "greater good". He and Sirus seem to be on the "pro new good Trace" side, and we haven't seen him like actually harm or intend to harm the main characters.
Sure, there's the whole issue with him and Rose at the gallows, but like he said to Mary afterwards, he was put into a compromising situation. What could he have done, that wouldn't have resulted in him being found out as a Keidran and *both* of them hanged? He never intended to hurt Rose, and it's not like he didn't care about her *at all*, he was suddenly put in a very difficult situation and had to make a difficult decision.
And also yes, he did help Trace with his coup, but I get the impression that he did it just as much to save Mary as to gain power (and maybe, if he suspected the coup would succeed without him, to *not* get on Trace's bad side). He agreed to help Trace on the condition that he not kill Mary. And then when Mary and Raine were sold into slavery, it was Euchre who secretly freed them. Also, the last time we saw Euchre and Mary, they seemed to be on good terms. (what is Mary up to these days, incidentally?). Similarly, Euchre and Rose are... well... on speaking terms at least. So it seemed to me that sure, Euchre had done some [censored] things in the past, but he's pretty much a good guy now and trying to set things right.

But your comment really made me rethink all this. You're absolutely right; from Euchre's conversation with Rose, it's clear that he's known about Raine and group B all this time. He must have known about the trouble they've been facing, and in particular, about Raine's issues with being a wolf and everything. But instead of being the father he should be and actually spending time with his daughter and being there for her and *helping* her with a problem that he's effectively responsible for, he's just content with watching her from the sidelines. Hell, we haven't even seen evidence that he *has* been helping group B even from behind the scenes; they've been in some serious life-or-death problems and there's no evidence that they were saved by anything other than their own luck and abilities. (unless you want to suggest that Nibbly is Euchre / is working for Euchre). And even if so... if he really is a better person now, he really should be there for his daughter, there to support her, there to teach her how to control her abilities. So yeah... I guess your comment made me realise that Euchre is still really a dick. :(

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#28 Post by Technic[Bot] »

TheMouse wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 9:18 pm It seems likely that slave collars are generally the same, regardless of "brand".
I am gonna assume that as with any product there are a couple variaties and even "custom made" collars for those picky customers...
TheMouse wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 9:18 pm This isn't all that different from Natani's little vision quest in her own mind. Forcing someone to confront a part of themselves and accept that it is, in fact, part of them isn't malicious or cruel. Raine has to accept that she has this talent and that it can be consciously controlled. She's seen it and it's been described, in Rose and Euchre respectively, but she hasn't internalized that she can control her shifting. If things were all safe and happy, Rose could spend months teaching Raine little by little. Unfortunately, she doesn't have the luxury of time, with the storm whirling around outside the relative peace of the estate. They have days, at best, not months, before things go to [censored] again and she might need to have at least a basic grasp of her abilities to avoid becoming just another casualty.
Honestly i would be more worried by the ticking Time bomb that is Trace, jst how long before he fins his "real" old lab?
TheMouse wrote: Tue May 21, 2019 9:18 pm Is it nice and gentle? No. Nice and gentle is what should have happened if Euchre and/or Mary were worth a damn as parents. But Rose has to break a lifetime of misunderstandings and fear, and in very short order. If you want to blame anyone for this mess, and how Rose is trying to handle it, blame Euchre. He's clearly known where Raine is this whole time, he knows how to control the talent, he's able to project himself wherever he pleases. He could have been teaching her at any point instead of leaving it up to his cousin to un [censored] the mess he made.
Honestly I am of the opinion they are not really that bad parents. Specially Euchre, I mean they are not good parents by any means, but they are still a notch over those people who sell their babies for some crack money...
That did not sound that well let me ellaborate:
As Raine once told [Missing foreing key] her mother had "ample" opportunity to get rid of Euchre and by extension her without causing much ruckus. But for whatever reason she decided to let the former live and give birth to the later. Also Mary seems to care for Raine in her very own weird and ineffective way. Yeah she send Raine to the middle of nowhere probably to spend her entire life with only her caretaker. However the Order she presided is not particularly fond of Keidran. Just imagine what they would do with a shifting hybrid? And as Trace pointed out a couple years later, she had no lack of enemies, the kind that would hurt her child in a hertbeat, hybrid or not. Of course a better solution would have been to actually teach her to control herself, so Raine would never need to look like a Keidran if she did not wanted to, besides considering her magic potential had she been trained i suspect Trace coup would not have lasted long. On the other hand Euchre has had little agency on the matter, after his secret was discovered he was banished by Mary and her daughter sent to god only knows where to spend her life most likely against his wishes, hell maybe Mary did not bothered telling him she was carrying their daughter. And the come Trace & co blackmailing Euchre into helping in exchange for his ex-partner and daughter life. We know that former Trace was a dangerous genocidal depressive monster with enough magic to make a dragon fell for him so going against him was a pretty bad idea. Yet Euchre freed both Mary an Raine after they were sold to slavery, he took a risk for them.
AndreRhineDavis wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 1:28 am But your comment really made me rethink all this. You're absolutely right; from Euchre's conversation with Rose, it's clear that he's known about Raine and group B all this time. He must have known about the trouble they've been facing, and in particular, about Raine's issues with being a wolf and everything. But instead of being the father he should be and actually spending time with his daughter and being there for her and *helping* her with a problem that he's effectively responsible for, he's just content with watching her from the sidelines. Hell, we haven't even seen evidence that he *has* been helping group B even from behind the scenes; they've been in some serious life-or-death problems and there's no evidence that they were saved by anything other than their own luck and abilities. (unless you want to suggest that Nibbly is Euchre / is working for Euchre). And even if so... if he really is a better person now, he really should be there for his daughter, there to support her, there to teach her how to control her abilities. So yeah... I guess your comment made me realise that Euchre is still really a dick. :(
Well even if crazy genocidal maniac Trace ™️ is not longer in the picture, at least for the time being. His little psychopathic friends: Sirius, Branh and company are now battling for power. I assume Euchre cannot go out of his way to help anyone since it would give his position to Bran or jeopardize his alliance with Sirius. The State is protected by every enchantment under the sun so a small chat with Rose might be reasonable safe. And on the other hand maybe he does feel terrible for the life her daughter had and thus cannot bring himself to face her yet....
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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#29 Post by whiskeyfur »

I think I see where this is going.

She's just directly challenging her perception of the problem, not the problem itself yet.

Once Raine realizes this mythical wolf is just a myth then she'll lose those preconceptions and realize it's all her, and they can begin the real training.

Right now Raine is sabotaging herself by putting the blame on something other then herself, even though it's HER problem.

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Re: Comic for May 20, 2019: Conquering the Inner Wolf

#30 Post by Kelden »

whiskeyfur wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 4:07 pm I think I see where this is going.

She's just directly challenging her perception of the problem, not the problem itself yet.

Once Raine realizes this mythical wolf is just a myth then she'll lose those preconceptions and realize it's all her, and they can begin the real training.

Right now Raine is sabotaging herself by putting the blame on something other then herself, even though it's HER problem.
Exactly. Raine will never be able to fully control this ability if she views "the wolf" as a separate entity, or views the form as a curse. Before she can learn to control it, she must first accept the reality of who, and what she is. I'm guessing the collar will work on her even in human form, because she *is* part Keidran, despite Euchre having been in human form when she was conceived. Once that illusion has been shattered, Raine will be forced to accept the truth, and reconcile with her wolf form, rather than seeing it as a burden. Only then will she truly be able to begin learning to control her ability.

Rose's method may be brutal, but it's necessary. She needs to show Raine, definitively, that her Keidran side is part of her, no matter what she looks like, just as her human nature shines through even in wolf form. Human and Keidran, Raine is both.

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