The question of Natani

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Warrl
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Re: The question of Natani

#16 Post by Warrl »

Qwe304 wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:39 pm I think that labeling natani as trans is kinda offensive to actual trans people, you have a female fictional character with legitimate brain damage, masquerading as a male, putting natani in the same group as trans people is wrong.
There is no report or evidence of brain damage. Only soul damage, which was repaired by splicing in a male soul.

Now if you want to take the position that souls don't have gender, or don't exist, then you can argue with The Creator - the artist/author who defines this fictional world and is the absolute final authority thereon. (Hint: you lose.)

So if souls have gender, and the only soul-gender Natani has any contact or communication with is male, but Natani's body is female, then in what sense is Natani not transgender?

You could argue that Natani's soul was not as damaged as thought, and the original condition is reasserting itself. You might have a point on that... but based on the available evidence I would tentatively say that Natani was originally gender-neutral or genderfluid (or both), not female. And the combination of that condition with the splice and the healing process could quite possibly land him at a condition of being merely less paranoid about his female body (but still clearly transgender).

Now if you're objecting to a certain tendency to toss everyone who isn't solidly cisgender into the "transgender" bucket... that, I agree, is belittling to genuinely transgender people. And I'm mildly genderfluid myself, so I have some idea whereof I speak; if nothing else, treating the dozen or so less-than-twenty-minute bouts of gender dysphoria that I've experienced as being in the same category of emotional difficulty as living with gender dysphoria every waking moment with no expectation that it will end short of death... no. Just no.

But it seems a pretty solid case to me that Natani was transgender, and I haven't seen anything yet that definitely says he isn't transgender.

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Re: The question of Natani

#17 Post by aitaituo »

I don't think there's substance in distinguishing soul damage and brain damage here. There's no scientific evidence of souls in the real world and in the comic they're a mundane phenomenon, just like magic. The fact is that Natani was injured and this left her with significant amnesia and personality changes. The real world analogue there is brain damage. It's a comparison that's hard to avoid, as your post illustrates. You've exchanged the mind/body gender dualism with a soul/body gender dualism.

Qwe has a point, I think. Transgender people do not become that way due to injury.

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Re: The question of Natani

#18 Post by Hayate »

Hey everyone! You are all entitled to your own opinions, but this thread will not become an argument or battle. If I see it heading that way, it will be locked. Keep things civil and on topic.
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Re: The question of Natani

#19 Post by stlsf4003 »

Hayate wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:45 pm Hey everyone! You are all entitled to your own opinions, but this thread will not become an argument or battle. If I see it heading that way, it will be locked. Keep things civil and on topic.
Did i miss something here?

I though we were doing pretty well so far.
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Qwe304
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Re: The question of Natani

#20 Post by Qwe304 »

aitaituo wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:41 pm I don't think there's substance in distinguishing soul damage and brain damage here. There's no scientific evidence of souls in the real world and in the comic they're a mundane phenomenon, just like magic.
thanks for wording it so well for me, yes regardless of technicality in the differences between real life and fiction, the fact stands that natani was irrefutably skewed toward male due to her soul being bound to her brother, regardless of any arguable male tendencies beforehand. Therefore I beleive that labeling her as trans is incorrect. I feel tom's own label is really the only thing we should use with her, "natani, the gender confused wolf".
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Re: The question of Natani

#21 Post by steelabjur »

Qwe304 wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:29 pm
aitaituo wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:41 pm I don't think there's substance in distinguishing soul damage and brain damage here. There's no scientific evidence of souls in the real world and in the comic they're a mundane phenomenon, just like magic.
thanks for wording it so well for me, yes regardless of technicality in the differences between real life and fiction, the fact stands that natani was irrefutably skewed toward male due to her soul being bound to her brother, regardless of any arguable male tendencies beforehand. Therefore I beleive that labeling her as trans is incorrect. I feel tom's own label is really the only thing we should use with her, "natani, the gender confused wolf".
If we're going to go with "Tom's own label", then I direct you to Natani's reference sheet:

Image

Sex: Female
Gender: Male

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stlsf4003
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Re: The question of Natani

#22 Post by stlsf4003 »

steelabjur wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:41 pm
Qwe304 wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:29 pm
aitaituo wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:41 pm I don't think there's substance in distinguishing soul damage and brain damage here. There's no scientific evidence of souls in the real world and in the comic they're a mundane phenomenon, just like magic.
thanks for wording it so well for me, yes regardless of technicality in the differences between real life and fiction, the fact stands that natani was irrefutably skewed toward male due to her soul being bound to her brother, regardless of any arguable male tendencies beforehand. Therefore I beleive that labeling her as trans is incorrect. I feel tom's own label is really the only thing we should use with her, "natani, the gender confused wolf".
If we're going to go with "Tom's own label", then I direct you to Natani's reference sheet:

Image

Sex: Female
Gender: Male
So basically the mind of a man and the body of a woman.

At the end of the day, only Tom knows where Nat stands on the gender spectrum, and the only reason he's kept that bit of info vague is due to the fact that if he tries to go in either direction with with the gender question, it might just start a civil war that would tear the fandom apart.
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Re: The question of Natani

#23 Post by AmigaDragon »

stlsf4003 wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:13 pmAt the end of the day, only Tom knows where Nat stands on the gender spectrum, and the only reason he's kept that bit of info vague is due to the fact that if he tries to go in either direction with with the gender question, it might just start a civil war that would tear the fandom apart.
Or Tom taking a stand one way or another right now (beyond the ref sheet) could be spoilers or change later.
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stlsf4003
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Re: The question of Natani

#24 Post by stlsf4003 »

AmigaDragon wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:31 pm
stlsf4003 wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:13 pmAt the end of the day, only Tom knows where Nat stands on the gender spectrum, and the only reason he's kept that bit of info vague is due to the fact that if he tries to go in either direction with with the gender question, it might just start a civil war that would tear the fandom apart.
Or Tom taking a stand one way or another right now (beyond the ref sheet) could be spoilers or change later.
That to.
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Loveknowsbest
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Re: The question of Natani

#25 Post by Loveknowsbest »

So here is my conclusion. I believe that the male side is more of a survival instinct than that of a belief. It is said that when she was young she wanted to be male because she didn't want to be separated from her brother. So it was more a need to stay around her brother that fed into the desire than her denying her sex. Only words I can put it. If she/he wanted to be completely male she wouldn't had pursued Keith or should I say Tom didn't take that path. Which I believed supports the notion that he believes he is a male because he/she has been using it as a facade for so long that it is linked to her. The soul link only solidified it more into her conscience. We know that he/she only feels secure as a girl only when alone with Keith. It really shouldn't be this big of a deal. She has grown to be my favorite of the three trio. Nat, Keith, and Zen

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Re: The question of Natani

#26 Post by ethanen »

Bec wrote: Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:45 pm Actual transgender guy here! Natani's identity very much strikes me as trans. (Take a shot every time I say that word, by the way.)

Firstly, adult/current Natani is, in my eyes, 100% a transgender man. While I'm a firm believer in stories being entirely up to the interpretation of the readers (I won't go around arguing with fans who have differing opinions), I feel like this is pretty much canonical. He meets the dictionary definition of transgender, being "denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender does not correspond with their birth sex." On Natani's ref sheet (), gender and sex are listed separately, and do not match. He is also physically male in the mindscape, before and after his re-awakening with Youngtani, and still wants to be seen as male even when others know his secret. Natani expresses discomfort with how the others treated him after they found out, too.
The fact that, after coming to terms with his body and relationship with Keith, Natani still feels like and wants to be seen as male, pretty much cements him as a transgender man, even if the journey there was more fantastical than real life scenarios.
As for Youngtani, there are transgender people who lack dysphoria. For those people, they often "don't mind" being seen as their birth sex while living as it, but are happier living as the gender they choose. That pretty much matches up with what Youngtani says about herself-and I do say "her" since that's how she's described in-comic. Some transgender people do view their past selves as a different gender, while others believe they've always truly been trans. Natani seems to be the former case, acknowledging his past self as a girl who wanted to be seen as a guy.

I don't think that Tom will ever bring a verdict on this. He could lose fans if he actually makes a "word of god" statement. From the text, though, this is what I've parsed.
If anyone has something else to say I'll be happy to read it! I like to hear others' opinions.
Natani Reference sheet's are amazing to see but unfortunately the give source url is not working any more, Can you please check and update it.
Ethan-En :)

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Hayate
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Re: The question of Natani

#27 Post by Hayate »

ethanen wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:33 am Natani Reference sheet's are amazing to see but unfortunately the give source url is not working any more, Can you please check and update it.
The only link in the post you quoted seems to be working as intended, perhaps there is an issue on your end. It actually looks like it was edited out of your quote… Just for fun, I copy/pasted the link from that post here anyways.

https://www.deviantart.com/twokinds/art ... -792169381
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Re: The question of Natani

#28 Post by Lapisleafuli »

Personally as a trans woman I view Natani as trans as well. I'm drawing off of Personal experience and bias so grain of salt but the way he's talked about how he feels lines up pretty well with my struggles over the years with it. I'd yoyo back and fourth on how much of it was me or how much may have been just seeing genderbend stuff from a fairly young age by chance. Not quite as dramatic as a crisis of the soul like Natani seems to have but in the same vein.

Certain things young natani says as well were very familiar to me "I didn't hate being a girl but I liked being a boy" in particular is exactly the feeling I had.

Just my personal thoughts though and a little bit the character sheet but that's already been talked about to death so don't feel like going in depth on it.

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Re: The question of Natani

#29 Post by Likita »

Natani was born as a female and identifies as male. Natani's gender identity and sexuality are not linked in any way. GBWhatsApp APK
Natani is a female. Simple for me.

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Re: The question of Natani

#30 Post by Jessibu »

Well, I know how it is. But Saying Natani is a trans just didn't justifies it. I really loved this character. She is a woman, just acts like a man.
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