Comic for Feb 2nd, 2019: The Dungeons

[SirJahar]

*unpublished side comic snip*

Ok, so stuff nobody would know about, and can, and some would argue SHOULD, be disregarded due to its unpublished status. And all this is STILL at-odds with her characterization prior to landfall.

[MuonNeutrino]

Hm, so Maddie *is* older than she'd said. I'd suspected as much for a long time, but she's a bit older than I had thought - I was thinking somewhere around 15. And part of why I'd thought that was her physical appearance since she does look fairly young, but if she's actually 17 she *really* looks younger than her age. It's nothing as extreme as her mother's enormous stature (I'm pretty sure Adelaide has gigantism, given her height of 7'2" next to the normally-sub-5'6" rest of her species), but she's definitely well under the norm in terms of physical development - she's a full head shorter than Keith, who is only 2 years older than her! I could definitely see how that could give someone with *her* mom a bit of a complex.

So... any idea where all this is coming from? Maddie's thoughts about her mom have been pretty generic-angsty-teen, in stark contrast to her happy-go-lucky teen characterization in everything prior to the last two chapters. The amount of character change we are expected to buy happened in the time Natani was down is mind boggling, and is getting hard to keep tallie of.
And we also have to assume Maddie's not lieing now to get Karren to STFU about her being a kid. For all we know she could be 14, 23, 17, anything.
While I'll grant that Maddie has been kinda obsessed about her supposed detriments compared to her mother since the morning, it still seems bizarre that she's been on this "I'm an adult" charade since they got to port. Before then, she was content to appear however someone saw here as long as it played even vaguely to her benefit, usually involving getting people to give her a pass or at least underestimating her.

I think part of the apparent sudden change was that when she first was revealed on the ship, she was in a vulnerable position. Eric's the one in charge there, and unless and until she can convince the others to defend her to him there wouldn't have been anything stopping him from kicking her off the boat as he later threatened. So she's trying anything she can to manipulate the others into defending her, I think she had decided from the very start that she needed to appear as un-threatening as possible, and she very obviously immediately clued in to Flora's maternal instincts kicking in. So she decides that playing on the 'just a kid' angle has the best chance of convincing the person who's already hinted they might be sympathetic to defend her. As such, I think that the 'happy go lucky' characterization we see from her after that is her deliberately playing it up for the audience. Oh, I'm sure there's a genuine attitude at the core there, but she's deliberately exaggerating it. (I'd also note that she *doesn't* try it with Keith when they finally meet, as she knows it's not the right way to try to convince *him*.)

But once they get off the ship, she doesn't need the others to defend her from Eric anymore, and there's no point in keeping up the charade with Keith and Lynn, who it wouldn't have worked on anyway. (In fact, we hadn't even seen her since that point in the previous chapter, so for all we know she might have been acting more normal for the whole rest of the trip.) And after this point, she doesn't act so ditzy. There's still some - like I said, I don't think it was *entirely* an act - but I think this is much more the 'real' Maddie.

So, long story short, I don't think her personality has suddenly shifted, I just think that the original hyper-genki Maddie of the ship was simply an exaggerated act and what we've seen since they landed is the real personality, occasional angst and all (which it would have been perfectly reasonable for her to hide as part of her act while on the ship). And I don't think there's necessarily anything odd about exuberance occasionally coexisting with angst in her personality - it's not like characters aren't allowed to have moods or something. (In fact, I'd say mood swings would be a perfectly normal behavior for a teenager!)

[IHeartMaeve]

And all this is STILL at-odds with her characterization prior to landfall.

You mean how she said she was nearly 14 at that time? Pretty sure she was lying for protection from a return to the brig at the time; I don’t see why she’d be lying about her age at a time like this.

Or is it something else you were referring to there?

[CrRAR]

*unpublished side comic snip*

Ok, so stuff nobody would know about, and can, and some would argue SHOULD, be disregarded due to its unpublished status. And all this is STILL at-odds with her characterization prior to landfall.

I think this is quite within the bounds of Twokinds standard canon and the feelings, as Maddie says, a Basitin would be susceptible to. Basitins are predisposed to societal compulsions. Alaric (granted, under tower influence) was adamant that Basitins must do what is commanded whether or not they think it’s wrong. When they are granted orders they are instinctually obligated to follow through with EXTREME bouts of mental discomfort should they disobey or attempt to disregard them. Remember when Keith attempted to shirk orders to kill Natani!? He literally couldn’t.

Being a Basitin involves instinctual compulsion to follow orders... as well as a strong innate expectation to live up to what it means to be a Basitin including competing in a militaristic capability. May it not be a coincidence that adept fighting skill translates into attractiveness?

It’s actually quite a good callback to Basitin nature.

[SirJahar]

*mood swings and acting snip*

Ok, fair, but as you pointed out, we didn't get to see that. So all this is still jarring with what we know of her super-hero-worship-geek-out on the isle and her behavior on the boat. We just are in the dark because of the time skip, and its starting to make certain things seem less well founded.

Or is it something else you were referring to there?

On the island, she was a much less dark and serious character.
In general, Tom seems to be trying to take a darker note, and I feel things are doing a poor job of trying to change gears and tones.

I think this is quite within the bounds of Twokinds standard canon and the feelings, as Maddie says, a Basitin would be susceptible to. Basitins are predisposed to compulsions. Alaric (granted, under tower influence) was adamant that Basitins must do what is commanded whether or not they think it’s wrong. When they are granted orders they are instinctually obligated to follow through with EXTREME bouts of mental discomfort should they disobey or attempt to disregard them. Remember when Keith attempted to shirk orders to kill Natani!? He literally couldn’t.

Being a Basitin involves instinctual compulsion to follow orders... as well as a strong innate expectation to live up to what it means to be a Basitin including milatristic might. May it not be a coincidence that adept fighting skill translates into attractiveness?

Yet in that same scene we saw him NOT kill her, despite said orders. And if the orders addiction is so strong, why didn't she go into withdraw sooner? Or are you going to say she was still riding the high of meeting Keith?

[CrRAR]

I think this is quite within the bounds of Twokinds standard canon and the feelings, as Maddie says, a Basitin would be susceptible to. Basitins are predisposed to compulsions. Alaric (granted, under tower influence) was adamant that Basitins must do what is commanded whether or not they think it’s wrong. When they are granted orders they are instinctually obligated to follow through with EXTREME bouts of mental discomfort should they disobey or attempt to disregard them. Remember when Keith attempted to shirk orders to kill Natani!? He literally couldn’t.

Being a Basitin involves instinctual compulsion to follow orders... as well as a strong innate expectation to live up to what it means to be a Basitin including milatristic might. May it not be a coincidence that adept fighting skill translates into attractiveness?

Yet in that same scene we saw him NOT kill her, despite said orders. And if the orders addiction is so strong, why didn't she go into withdraw sooner? Or are you going to say she was still riding the high of meeting Keith?

Haha, well partly that. BUT! When Keith couldn’t do the deed he did turn the knife on himself. Which Natani had to intervene to save him from with the immobilization spell... then distracted him further by playing with his ears. It was tense, and Keith’d probably be dead were it not for Natani’s intervention.

I think the circumstances of having failed here (against Mr. Statue) have caused her to become pensive. Sure it’s not an order she’s disobeying... but it is more her Basitesian programming, if you will, that has her feeling so low and reflective. The change in tone is startling... but it’s a new page and now we’re in a dungeon. Oh the places you’ll go~

The Basitins... they’re kinda like lemmings when they stampede off a cliff together... if you grabbed one and stopped it from mob mentality you could probably save it. It’s like that except with competition and militaristic tendencies rather than rambunctous cliff-jumping.

[SirJahar]

*failure makes them depressed snip*
They’re kinda like lemmings when they stampede off a cliff together... if you grabbed one and stopped it from mob mentality you could probably save it. It’s like that except with competition and militaristic tendencies rather than rambunctous cliff-jumping.

Ok, fair enough. And that still doesn't help that we were thrown a time skip that is now hiding some things it increasingly feels like we should know to make all this feel cohesive.

[Combak]

I’ve got to say, I really hope one of the sketch suggestions tomorrow is Karen giving Maddie a hug. Bonus points if Tom includes a side panel showing Karen also trying to touch Maddie’s ears. Or maybe that’s the next actual page.

If I could tell Maddie one thing right now, it would be to stop thinking about that. There’s nothing you can do about the way your body is, and trying to do something about it will only go so far. Just ask Natani. All you can ever do is try to be the best version of yourself you could ever be.

BTW, we’ve seen an “older” version of Maddie in some of the sketches. Assuming Maddie isn’t lying, she will never become that person... I think. So, what should we call this Maddie who isn’t Maddie? Madelynn?

Oh, and for the Maeve and Maddie shippers: Their ages work out in about three years.

[Eclipse]

Yet in that same scene we saw him NOT kill her, despite said orders. And if the orders addiction is so strong, why didn't she go into withdraw sooner? Or are you going to say she was still riding the high of meeting Keith?

That was explained, Western Basitins aren't biological compelled to follow orders and Keith's mother was Western.

I'm actually wondering if Maddie is also half-Western. If anything she seems to be even more rebellious than Keith. Would explain why her father doesn't seem to be in the picture, you can only imagine how huge a scandal it would be to the Basitins if that got out.

[Hulk10]

I wonder if someone offed him

[Technic[Bot]]

May I add something?

... And the old goats were right ...

I have always pictured basitins as they were some weird cougar/rabbit biological experiment gonna terrible wrong mixup. Add some more cat in the mix to taste, but never I i just can't see any "goat" in the design,and it may be just be me, reading too much into it or it is just a common insult back in maddie's homeland. But still the comment threw me off my feet...
Pero bueno eso significa que si salen unas birrias...

Hm, so Maddie *is* older than she'd said. I'd suspected as much for a long time, but she's a bit older than I had thought - I was thinking somewhere around 15. And part of why I'd thought that was her physical appearance since she does look fairly young, but if she's actually 17 she *really* looks younger than her age. It's nothing as extreme as her mother's enormous stature (I'm pretty sure Adelaide has gigantism, given her height of 7'2" next to the normally-sub-5'6" rest of her species), but she's definitely well under the norm in terms of physical development - she's a full head shorter than Keith, who is only 2 years older than her! I could definitely see how that could give someone with *her* mom a bit of a complex.

~quote snip~

I think part of the apparent sudden change was that when she first was revealed on the ship, she was in a vulnerable position. Eric's the one in charge there, and unless and until she can convince the others to defend her to him there wouldn't have been anything stopping him from kicking her off the boat as he later threatened. So she's trying anything she can to manipulate the others into defending her, I think she had decided from the very start that she needed to appear as un-threatening as possible, and she very obviously immediately clued in to Flora's maternal instincts kicking in. So she decides that playing on the 'just a kid' angle has the best chance of convincing the person who's already hinted they might be sympathetic to defend her. As such, I think that the 'happy go lucky' characterization we see from her after that is her deliberately playing it up for the audience. Oh, I'm sure there's a genuine attitude at the core there, but she's deliberately exaggerating it. (I'd also note that she *doesn't* try it with Keith when they finally meet, as she knows it's not the right way to try to convince *him*.)

But once they get off the ship, she doesn't need the others to defend her from Eric anymore, and there's no point in keeping up the charade with Keith and Lynn, who it wouldn't have worked on anyway. (In fact, we hadn't even seen her since that point in the previous chapter, so for all we know she might have been acting more normal for the whole rest of the trip.) And after this point, she doesn't act so ditzy. There's still some - like I said, I don't think it was *entirely* an act - but I think this is much more the 'real' Maddie.

So, long story short, I don't think her personality has suddenly shifted, I just think that the original hyper-genki Maddie of the ship was simply an exaggerated act and what we've seen since they landed is the real personality, occasional angst and all (which it would have been perfectly reasonable for her to hide as part of her act while on the ship). And I don't think there's necessarily anything odd about exuberance occasionally coexisting with angst in her personality - it's not like characters aren't allowed to have moods or something. (In fact, I'd say mood swings would be a perfectly normal behavior for a teenager!)

Well she does look young but I do not think she looks "that" young, 17 looks perfectly reasonable, there is also the fact than since her face is, you know, covered in fur it would be hard to tell and the comic book aesthethic does not help either.. But i agree with you she is somewhat short, bu aren't most basitins short, at least compared to humans? I am not sure why but I have always worked under that impression.
I am not sure Adelaide has gigantism thought, I am not that versed on the topic but most people afflicted by that tend to a miriad of problem, cardiac deficiencies, broken bones and kinda look a bit disproportionate . Yet Adelaide is the image of Herculean Athenean strength and health. I am not saying there is nothing weird with her height, but maybe she just hit genetic lottery. Besides considering that 2.18 m is not that much considering people with extreme cases of gigantism can reach 2,72 m.
Finally I do not see anything weird or out of character with her behavior, she was smashed into a wall by a giant golem and had her whole self esteem crushed in the process not only that but all her self-doubt and fears just got validated, in her head at least, by not being able to help Karen nor herself. I would be far more worried if she did not act somber and broody.
Besides as most point out she is still quite young, at that age is not uncommon to be fawning about her favorite book/hero one moment and the next contemplating about how she ended up being and abject failure.
Also "just bruised ribs" it is not like those things grow on things young lady!

[CrRAR]

Yet in that same scene we saw him NOT kill her, despite said orders. And if the orders addiction is so strong, why didn't she go into withdraw sooner? Or are you going to say she was still riding the high of meeting Keith?

That was explained, Western Basitins aren't biological compelled to follow orders and Keith's mother was Western.

I'm actually wondering if Maddie is also half-Western. If anything she seems to be even more rebellious than Keith. Would explain why her father doesn't seem to be in the picture, you can only imagine how huge a scandal it would be to the Basitins if that got out.

Oh! Very good point, I had forgotten that detail that they share similar lineage. That puts Keith and Maddie equally susceptible/free to/from their nature. Expains their ability to be swayed and, indeed, they’re affinity for rebellion.

(Though it seems shriking lawfulness is common to the East Basitin leadership)

*failure makes them depressed snip*
They’re kinda like lemmings when they stampede off a cliff together... if you grabbed one and stopped it from mob mentality you could probably save it. It’s like that except with competition and militaristic tendencies rather than rambunctous cliff-jumping.

Ok, fair enough. And that still doesn't help that we were thrown a time skip that is now hiding some things it increasingly feels like we should know to make all this feel cohesive.

Yeah, it is a bit suspicious we didn’t see them phase out of thin air and tumble to the ground. Just... waking up, it’s a good point we don’t know exactly how much time passed, could be a reason for that though. It’ll be interesting getting back to Trace/Rose to see what transpired and get an explanation of what they experienced/are dealing with in the aftermath. Luckily like Cosmacelf said in the last thread, we didn’t just cut back to Mike/Evals.

As for the sudden tone change, at the beginning of that KeithxNatani love-scuffle we got this panel:

In the middle of a prime opportunity at growing their relationship THAT was what Keith was consumed by... or rather forced to feel just because of his species. It was jarring at the time because Natani and Keith closed in a room together was kind of a big deal, especially with the Laura drama occurring, that they had the opportunity to earnestly make some headway... not without some Basitin feelings crashing the party, but it actually did work as a growing point.

Verrry similar to what is unfolding now.
(Karen may just get to comfortingly touchfuzzyear yet!)

[Eclipse]

Oh! Very good point, I had forgotten that detail that they share similar lineage. That puts Keith and Maddie equally susceptible/free to/from their nature. Expains their ability to be swayed and, indeed, they’re affinity for rebellion.

(Though it seems shriking lawfulness is common to the East Basitin leadership)

Well, we don't know that Maddie is Western (unless there's something in the side comics I don't know about?), as far as I know we know nothing about Maddie's father. That was just a theory.

[AndreRhineDavis]

...Sorry Maddie, but if your species are supposed to age like humans, then 17 is still a kid, or at least certainly not an adult who's finished developing yet. Frankly, getting to a rank where they let you sit in on a tribunal even at that age is astonishing.

You're basing your assumption on our society. We don't know how Basitin society works in this regard. Enlistment (or conscription) could begin at 12, or even younger. Weapons training might start even younger yet, given a (likely non-canon) piece where Keith was gifted a spear at a young age.

"Like all Basitins, he did eventually join the military at 8 years of age, late for most Basitins. Keith was blamed for his parents death at the age of 13 and banished from the islands."
- Keith's entry on the TwoKinds Character Page

The idea that "18 years old is the point where you are an adult, before that you are a child" is part of modern Western society and laws, but it's hardly universal. Throughout different human cultures and different points in history, there's a whole range of different attitudes on when childhood ends and when adulthood begins. Not to mention that in reality it's a continuous transition, not a black and white thing, and there are multiple different "measures" of what abilities and faculties and rights and responsibilities makes someone an adult. For instance, in a given society you could ask people what age would they consider someone to be old enough to 1) be held accountable for their actions by society / in a court of law, 2) work in a job, 3) live on their own without parents, 4) get married / have sex, 5) join the army, 6) be a ruler/king (as opposed to having to have a regent), 7) make decisions about how they want to live their own lives, instead of having to obey their parents, etc etc etc. The answer to each of these questions could be a different age, even in the same culture. Even in our modern Western culture, despite that a 17 year old is technically still a "child" according to the law, where I live it's normal for 17 year olds to have jobs, drive cars, have sex [minimum age for sex is 16], and generally be treated much more similarly to a 20 year old adult than a 10 year old child.

The Basitins are very much modelled after / inspired by the Spartans, who also lived in a government ruled by military leaders, where there was no distinction between civilians and soldiers, where the entire culture was based on the military and children were raised to be soldiers from a very young age. In such a society, where children have such harsh upbringings and responsibilities from a young age, it's hardly unreasonable that by 13, 14, 15, etc, they could be considered "young adults". Anyway, in *this* particular case, Karen was saying Maddie is"just a kid" to imply that she may still grow up to be a big strong Basitin, and Maddie saying that she's "not just a kid" is implying that no, she's already passed her "teenage growth spurt", she has reached her adult physical form.

[MuonNeutrino]

Ok, fair enough. And that still doesn't help that we were thrown a time skip that is now hiding some things it increasingly feels like we should know to make all this feel cohesive.

I do agree that the timeskip after chapter 17 feels somewhat jarring. I commented around that time that it felt like there ought to have been another chapter on the boat - dealing with the aftermath of Natani's collapse that ended up jammed into the beginning of chapter 18, plus whatever fallout with Eric's bunch and the basitin Tom wanted to handle then - but that Tom compressed things because the boat trip had gotten so long. I can't say I blame him if that was indeed his thought process, but it does make that a bit of a jump.

-quote snip-

Well she does look young but I do not think she looks "that" young, 17 looks perfectly reasonable, there is also the fact than since her face is, you know, covered in fur it would be hard to tell and the comic book aesthethic does not help either.. But i agree with you she is somewhat short, bu aren't most basitins short, at least compared to humans? I am not sure why but I have always worked under that impression.
I am not sure Adelaide has gigantism thought, I am not that versed on the topic but most people afflicted by that tend to a miriad of problem, cardiac deficiencies, broken bones and kinda look a bit disproportionate . Yet Adelaide is the image of Herculean Athenean strength and health. I am not saying there is nothing weird with her height, but maybe she just hit genetic lottery. Besides considering that 2.18 m is not that much considering people with extreme cases of gigantism can reach 2,72 m.

Well, I wasn't referring specifically to her face, but her appearance as a whole. She's not only shorter than a human, but she's also shorter than other basitin, even Keith who is only two years her senior. She's also very petite and not busty/curvy in the slightest, which of course isn't definitive but is at least suggestive. I did think she was older than 13, but her general appearance led me to think she still wasn't fully physically mature, hence my guessing she might have been 15 or so.

As for Adelaide, my own bet is that the general basitin toughness and vitality are acting to mitigate the usual issues with gigantism, because she's just too frigging enormous for me to believe otherwise, especially given how not-enormous her daughter is. (Also, note that basitins are already shorter than humans, so 2.18m for a basitin is a more extreme variation than 2.18m for a human.)