Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

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tony1695
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Re: Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

#46 Post by tony1695 »

SirJahar wrote: Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:09 pm Ok, I had something more thought out I wanted to say, bit is the discussion here REALLY assuming Zen has been celibate since the link formed, when it was HEAVILY implied when Natani discussed the link with Keith the first time that they found out that its ecen harder than normal to suppress sexual experiances from passing through the link, by experiancing it?
Odds are, the only learned about that issue after the fact. Maybe Zen has been staying celibate since this entire time for Natani's sake?
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Re: Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

#47 Post by SirJahar »

tony1695 wrote: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:38 pm Maybe Zen has been staying celibate since this entire time for Natani's sake?
Maybe, but he strikes me as the kind of guy who flirts readily, especialy with booze in him, and may not keep it in his pants at that point. After all, he tried to put the moves on Raine (as part of his cover/escape plan/ruse, but still) completely sober.

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Re: Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

#48 Post by ZeroJinKui »

SomeBody wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:56 am Yeesh, lay off.

Not wanting to get a mandatory showing of your sibling boning their SO is hardly selfish. Most people would call that "sane and healthy," actually.
YOU lay off.

zen is selfish, he's putting his OWN comfort over natani's... EVERYTHING!

the guy has done nothing but suppress the person his sister is, and his own identity practically dominated natani's life.

natani is finally discovering herself and becoming her own person again, and has even found love, and zen just keeps going on and on about "look, you being a person makes me uncomfortable, so how about you just stop living your life, so i can remain ignorant of who you are?"

probably a bit of hyperbole there, but it's not THAT far off from what he's doing here... zen needs to get over it.
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Re: Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

#49 Post by Hulk10 »

I'm not convinced that Zen is being selfish...….
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Re: Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

#50 Post by Ddraig »

ZeroJinKui wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:45 pm
SomeBody wrote: Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:56 am Yeesh, lay off.

Not wanting to get a mandatory showing of your sibling boning their SO is hardly selfish. Most people would call that "sane and healthy," actually.
YOU lay off.

zen is selfish, he's putting his OWN comfort over natani's... EVERYTHING!

the guy has done nothing but suppress the person his sister is, and his own identity practically dominated natani's life.

natani is finally discovering herself and becoming her own person again, and has even found love, and zen just keeps going on and on about "look, you being a person makes me uncomfortable, so how about you just stop living your life, so i can remain ignorant of who you are?"

probably a bit of hyperbole there, but it's not THAT far off from what he's doing here... zen needs to get over it.
Give Zen a break for a moment and see how he reacts when he isn't just woken up from massive trauma and subsequent drugging and then placed into (likely both physical and emotional) shock by what he sees as a complete personality reversal from someone he's known all his life. Let him work the "Wait, what?" out of his system and have a moment to fully understand everything he just got buried under and see how he reacts once he's calm again. If you hold his words against him while he's in a precarious emotional position, do you also hold Keith responsible for lashing out at Trace on the ship and consider him a terrible person for attacking a friend?
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Re: Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

#51 Post by SirJahar »

Ddraig wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:04 am what he sees as a complete personality reversal from someone he's known all his life.
If he really knew Natani, this would have happened years ago. He would have realized, as he LITERALLY HAS A DOORWAY RIGHT INSIDE NATANI'S HEAD, what he was doing was a problem. For things to have gotten where they had, he clearly DID NOT know Natani as well as somebody who can literally review every single memory of the other at will, and does so, can and should be expected to.

People defending Zen seem to use a more mundane sibling relationship as the bases of their defence of him. They seem to forget this kinda major factor. Those of us attacking the guy are not calling people with siblings bad people for not being mind readers (I think). I know I am calling Zen a bad person for being able to read his sister's mind, being known to use the ability with regularity, and not applying the information he got/should have gotten.

And yes, I do call Keith a dick for assaulting his friend out of stress and anguish. But his offence is not compounded like Zen's, and Trace bothering to call of Blond Armored Idiot (Kei) showed that he'd forgiven Keith pretty well.

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Re: Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

#52 Post by tony1695 »

SirJahar wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:34 am
Ddraig wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:04 am what he sees as a complete personality reversal from someone he's known all his life.
If he really knew Natani, this would have happened years ago. He would have realized, as he LITERALLY HAS A DOORWAY RIGHT INSIDE NATANI'S HEAD, what he was doing was a problem. For things to have gotten where they had, he clearly DID NOT know Natani as well as somebody who can literally review every single memory of the other at will, and does so, can and should be expected to.

People defending Zen seem to use a more mundane sibling relationship as the bases of their defence of him. They seem to forget this kinda major factor. Those of us attacking the guy are not calling people with siblings bad people for not being mind readers (I think). I know I am calling Zen a bad person for being able to read his sister's mind, being known to use the ability with regularity, and not applying the information he got/should have gotten.

And yes, I do call Keith a dick for assaulting his friend out of stress and anguish. But his offence is not compounded like Zen's, and Trace bothering to call of Blond Armored Idiot (Kei) showed that he'd forgiven Keith pretty well.
Part of the problem is that Natani went along with it. Natani didn't feel it necessary to share anything of this nature with Zen, even with him rooting around in there, probably because Natani didn't even know there was a problem that needed to be brought up. You can't place all the blame solely on Zen. Natani is at least partially responsible for the situation they're in.
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Re: Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

#53 Post by Schrodinger »

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Maybe we should all step back and calm down a bit. Zen has some character flaws, but this is actually a good thing in the story. If he didn't, he wouldn't be a good character nor would there be any drama or character growth like we're seeing now. Zen used to have the freedom and the impetus to be an overbearing and overprotective older brother, but now that's being challenged because of Natani's increasing autonomy. As I said before, new boundaries are being established. What was acceptable behavior between the two of them isn't going to be moving forward and Zen has to learn how to let go of Natani and let his younger sibling have some privacy.

Guys, this is Zen's new character arc. He has to make mistakes and have his views challenged. Rooting through Natani's head isn't okay anymore, but it used to be. Natani permitted it on occasion and was embarrassed when Zen rolled through the memories before, but it was never a big enough issue that Natani had to flat out tell Zen not to do it.
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Re: Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

#54 Post by Ddraig »

SirJahar wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:34 am
Ddraig wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:04 am what he sees as a complete personality reversal from someone he's known all his life.
If he really knew Natani, this would have happened years ago. He would have realized, as he LITERALLY HAS A DOORWAY RIGHT INSIDE NATANI'S HEAD, what he was doing was a problem. For things to have gotten where they had, he clearly DID NOT know Natani as well as somebody who can literally review every single memory of the other at will, and does so, can and should be expected to.

People defending Zen seem to use a more mundane sibling relationship as the bases of their defence of him. They seem to forget this kinda major factor. Those of us attacking the guy are not calling people with siblings bad people for not being mind readers (I think). I know I am calling Zen a bad person for being able to read his sister's mind, being known to use the ability with regularity, and not applying the information he got/should have gotten.
As far as we know, Zen's only been in the metaphorical living room of Natani's mind, while the proto-YoungTani was kept in a basement so deep not even Nat knew she existed. Memories are not underlying overall emotional state, and sharing them doesn't necessarily mean Zen is reading Nat's subconscious better than Natani herself is - even if he could he has no way to know that or reason to look unless Nat clues him in that there's an issue. Being comfortable sharing memories because you and your sibling have been literally living with a shared headspace for most of your life is NOT the same as using that to pry into the part of their emotional or inner mental state they find most uncomfortable.

It's the difference between being comfortable walking into the bathroom while they're in the shower to get something from the sink, and walking into the bathroom and throwing open the shower curtain to check the health of their unmentionables.
Or, in a less extreme example, the difference between someone letting you into their house for tea versus sneaking away from the tea room and rifling through their underwear drawer.
And to preempt 'but he knew', Zen knew Nat is/was uncomfortable with that subject and yes, Zen did tease her about it, but it was sibling teasing, not malicious. That's an order of magnitude different than pushing his way into her psyche to probe that topic.
And yes, I do call Keith a dick for assaulting his friend out of stress and anguish. But his offence is not compounded like Zen's, and Trace bothering to call of Blond Armored Idiot (Kei) showed that he'd forgiven Keith pretty well.
Apparently we rank those differently. Personally, I consider deliberate physical assault worse than an insensitive word, but you may see it differently. Whether Trace forgave Keith after the fact or not has zero bearing on whether Keith doing that was okay (except for the interpretation - which I don't hold to be true in this case - that he was taking advantage of someone's forgiving nature, which would actually make it worse)
(I should also note that I don't hold it against Keith, either)
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Re: Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

#55 Post by SirJahar »

It may have been intended as sibling teasing, but I'll even say that's more harmful than most people like to admit.

And yes, Zen's going to have to learn that he's been an [censored] with an excuse to be said [censored], but no longer has that justification and is finlay going to have to modify his behavior. Something he has gotten away with NOT doing for far too long.

No, I will not cut the guy some slack. Somebody needs to be harsh on the mater.

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Re: Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

#56 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Ddraig wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:04 am Give Zen a break for a moment and see how he reacts when he isn't just woken up from massive trauma and subsequent drugging and then placed into (likely both physical and emotional) shock by what he sees as a complete personality reversal from someone he's known all his life. Let him work the "Wait, what?" out of his system and have a moment to fully understand everything he just got buried under and see how he reacts once he's calm again. If you hold his words against him while he's in a precarious emotional position, do you also hold Keith responsible for lashing out at Trace on the ship and consider him a terrible person for attacking a friend?
Pretty much this. As i said the simple news of you lil bro finally going to do the deed is enoguh to shock even the most stable person on a lazy evening. And the idea of having a front seat to the whole "debacle" would make anyone go bonkers. So, at least for me, he is having a normal reaction to this.

And just my two bits about the link:
As we have beaten to dead already, the exact workings of the link eludes us. But I doubt they can read all their emotions, feelings and memories in real time, all the time, even when they try. Such level of synchronization would probably create a very heavy bleed effect. I Imagine that after a few years that would have lead to them no longer being two persons but the same one on two different bodies, if the link was symmetric, otherwise I imagine the dominant brother would simply bleed completely into the other effectively cancelling him out. That is speculation thought
I think that after a few rough first months they finally learned two silence each other out when the need arises. And Natani being himself decided to hide his feeling of weakness from his big bro to project a more secure persona. Thus Zen is not aware yet of his negative impact over Nat decided to hide his feeling, insecurities and fears.
Alas this is my simply interpretation of the current events.
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Re: Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

#57 Post by Ddraig »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:23 amAnd just my two bits about the link:
As we have beaten to dead already, the exact workings of the link eludes us. But I doubt they can read all their emotions, feelings and memories in real time, all the time, even when they try. Such level of synchronization would probably create a very heavy bleed effect. I Imagine that after a few years that would have lead to them no longer being two persons but the same one on two different bodies, if the link was symmetric, otherwise I imagine the dominant brother would simply bleed completely into the other effectively cancelling him out. That is speculation thought
I think that after a few rough first months they finally learned two silence each other out when the need arises. And Natani being himself decided to hide his feeling of weakness from his big bro to project a more secure persona. Thus Zen is not aware yet of his negative impact over Nat decided to hide his feeling, insecurities and fears.
Alas this is my simply interpretation of the current events.
Something else I just thought of - even if Zen did get a general feeling of unsureness, worry, and discomfort from Nat (given how hard Nat is hiding it, I doubt it'd be more than "general"), what are the chances Zen feels something similar under the coolly confident facade he throws around. I've been the coolly confident one (to the point people have thought it was impossible to get me excited about something) and under that facade are the same doubts and concerns as anyone else. Add in Zen's being forced into being a parent while growing up and he's probably a hell of a lot less sure about things than most but has had to put on a brave face for Nat while she was younger and it just became ingrained into his persona. He probably even figured he was radiating the same feelings through the link.
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Re: Comic for September 1st, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching U- Keith!

#58 Post by HiseyLeSnake »

Damn people are being way to hard on Zen... This isn't just "one sibling tells another sibling its not ok to be gay" its allot more of "one sibling telling another sibling "I'm not gay" and I don't want to experience it, much less through the eyes of my sibling, which might as well be incest" EXCUSE Zen for not wanting to basically get raped.
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