Comic for August 21, 2018: Assassin Siblings, Catching Up, Pt 4

[Neptune]

>Oh God(s), did you sleep with the Basitin?
>No, of course not!
>Not yet, anyway…

I hope the comic gets juicy again, and this might be the starting cue.

[Tyger42]

WOW ; don't blush so hard , Natani ........... Zen can't deal with the revelation in the last panel and commit a suicide ?

Just how does one blush through fur anyway? XD

Mystery of life or miracle from the drawer ...... Choose yourself X3

Playing a Pandaren in WoW, it's something I've found myself having to ponder. That and how kissing works with that mouth shape. Even harder to figure that last one out for a Worgen.

[CrRAR]

There are some possibilities that come to mind, but it slipping Natani's mind -- even with his famously terrible memory -- or not being a big deal aren't really among them. If that's the line then the story has moved beyond my comprehension.

Sorry, didn't mean to suggest that it's not important or that they're not going to want to talk about it, just that I can see it not happening right this instant. From Natani's end, he's already had a couple days to get used to it, and he's not the one who needs an explanation to begin with. (And honestly, I can totally see him forgetting at least once that he'll actually have to *explain* stuff to Zen now, regardless of how important the stuff is. Not saying that he'll forget about some important topic itself, just that he'll forget that he has to *explain* said important topic rather than Zen just automatically knowing it too.) It's still important to him, and I expect he'll want to discuss it at some point, but I can easily see him getting distracted by the (to him) more immediate topic of Keith. And for Zen, he actually *was* starting to ask about it before they got sidetracked, and while Keith isn't the emotional hot button for him that he is for Nat, it also came at him completely cold, so likewise I can see the distraction happening quite naturally. Like I said, this feels like a natural sort of conversational flow to me - not that they won't talk about this obviously important topic at some point, just that conversations often meander and get sidetracked.

I would think, once Zen gets past his personal worries concerning effects on his own psyche (which should be lessening), he turns to Natani and has a more serious discussion that he thinks that whatever Natani feels is right for him is perfectly fine and he supports him... whatever that means. Frilly undies, stupid sexy Keiths, or not.

He does love to keep returning to the "You [ACTION VERB'D] THE BASITIN!?". lol, it seems to be his own personal fixation that Zen has to get past, not really an issue he has with Natani's choice of partner. If so, I think it's in the context of "...but I thought... that you thought that you were a dude!? (like me)". (Zen being prudishly obtuse... or naive?)

Unless... there's more to the narrative that we're missing as of yet. '>.>

[Warrl]

Mystery of life or miracle from the drawer ...... Choose yourself X3

I don't have a drawer full of miracles, so I guess I'll choose me.

[Kitch]

I’d like to think Zen would know if they had done that yet. But realizing Natani is considering it is an important development.

[jacobc62]

Am I the only one considering a possibility that Keith might reject Natani's offer to roll in the hay due to any variety of reasons? Yes, it would be a big step in their relationship if they went through with the deed, but you can't have character development without some sort of conflict....

[Technic[Bot]]

So the underwear is still a thing. Interesting I guess..
At this point I thought the comic would simply progress until we forgot about it and then Tom would simply write it off like:
What happened to those things i made you?
Oh i thing they got burned along with Trace's state.

This one, in the wider context of 'Natani'.

Honestly i think that issue wont be dealt right now. Natani is still processing the idea that she was not a weak little girl before being patched with Zen soul and that most of her personality is actually simply himself. He has to still realize: "wait did Zen really thought that low of me?" As long as that idea does not go through Nat's head i don't think they will be having THAT conversation. Probably being saved for a more dramatic moment.
Also on that topic some of the ideas that Natani got in his head were mostly himself. For example he ended relating femininity with weakness, but we have never seen Zen having that idea himself, mostly just Nat. I imagine that since he believed he was weak and feminine before her soul shattered and after the link he felt strong (?) and masculine he, by himself, ended with this idea that his supposed weakness came from his feminine side. Even thought both predicates were wrong, he was neither weak and neither particularly "girly" before he soul shattered.

Playing a Pandaren in WoW, it's something I've found myself having to ponder. That and how kissing works with that mouth shape. Even harder to figure that last one out for a Worgen.

About the kiss this is what Tom has to say about it. but if you ask me the shapes simply do not mesh correctly...
Respect to the fur, beats me, maybe face fur is slightly translucent so you can actually see the skin color thorough it, but who knows?

I would think, once Zen gets past his personal worries concerning effects on his own psyche (which should be lessening), he turns to Natani and has a more serious discussion that he thinks that whatever Natani feels is right for him is perfectly fine and he supports him... whatever that means. Frilly undies, stupid sexy Keiths, or not.

He does love to keep returning to the "You [ACTION VERB'D] THE BASITIN!?". lol, it seems to be his own personal fixation that Zen has to get past, not really an issue he has with Natani's choice of partner. If so, I think it's in the context of "...but I thought... that you thought that you were a dude!? (like me)". (Zen being prudishly obtuse... or naive?)

Unless... there's more to the narrative that we're missing as of yet. '>.>

Give the man a break, he was about to have his foot burned right through and most likely is crippled for good, on top of that he had to deal with almost killing his lil'bro whose mother explicitly told him to protect, if the sketches are to be believed, because he was being stupid and now after he just woke up from a narcotic haze/fever dream he finds that his brother might or might not be doing the horizontal tango with his new boyfriend, from a different species mind you, lingerie maybe inclusive.
Hell even on a calm afternoon that kind of news can upset anyone so it is no wonder he lost his bowels over it.

[ZeroJinKui]

geez, zen, be even MORE of a douche, why don't you... mentally abusing your clearly struggling sister is just WONDERFUL to watch.

i am EXTREMELY happy to see natani's response in the final panel, though... "not yet".

keith and natani is my favorite pairing... i love trace and flora, of course... but these two are the best.

[Warrl]

Playing a Pandaren in WoW, it's something I've found myself having to ponder. That and how kissing works with that mouth shape. Even harder to figure that last one out for a Worgen.

Well, real world, I have seen canids express affection for each other by one of them turning its head sideways and sort of play-biting the other's snout - so that basically A's upper jaw is on B's left side, and A's lower jaw on B's right. And I've seen humans kiss in a more or less similar positions, albeit with much shorter snouts and the noses kept out of the way (which could be a limiting factor for how long canids would want to keep one kiss going, as it would interfere with breathing more than it does in humans).

[CrRAR]

I would think, once Zen gets past his personal worries concerning effects on his own psyche (which should be lessening), he turns to Natani and has a more serious discussion that he thinks that whatever Natani feels is right for him is perfectly fine and he supports him... whatever that means. Frilly undies, stupid sexy Keiths, or not.

He does love to keep returning to the "You [ACTION VERB'D] THE BASITIN!?". lol, it seems to be his own personal fixation that Zen has to get past, not really an issue he has with Natani's choice of partner. If so, I think it's in the context of "...but I thought... that you thought that you were a dude!? (like me)". (Zen being prudishly obtuse... or naive?)

Unless... there's more to the narrative that we're missing as of yet. '>.>

Give the man a break, he was about to have his foot burned right through and most likely is crippled for good, on top of that he had to deal with almost killing his lil'bro whose mother explicitly told him to protect, if the sketches are to be believed, because he was being stupid and now after he just woke up from a narcotic haze/fever dream he finds that his brother might or might not be doing the horizontal tango with his new boyfriend, from a different species mind you, lingerie maybe inclusive.
Hell even on a calm afternoon that kind of news can upset anyone so it is no wonder he lost his bowels over it.

I'm one of the folks least critical of Zen, my post was mostly just observation. He has been through a lot. I can see where he would be in distress, they do share a mind and yeah the instinct to protect a younger sibling is strongly where he's operating from.

I think the most important takeaway from this page is that Zen's reaction to the situation hasn't changed, it's nearly identical to all the other discoveries of Natani "[ACTION VERB-ING] the Basitin!?". More importantly, what has changed is Natani's willingness to fight for what's his; his own individuality. Getting more defensive when Zen escalated to shouting, rather than concede and reserve himself to "improving" by concealing and suppressing his true feelings about things is an accomplishment.

Yeahhh, can't really shame Zen too hard for any reactions. He may never view Keith amicably, just for what he is, what he is to Natani, and let's not forget the whole incident about getting a sword through the chest (though having assassins chase you around the woods is no fun). That's not something you get over, and especially sitting in a bed recovering again might stir those memories back to the surface for Zen, which doesn't bode well for a face-to-face Zen-Keith meeting.

I would hope though that Zen can be happy that Natani has a chance at being happier than he's been in a loooong time. I think we may see Zen elaborate further soon enough, one way or the other.

[amenon]

Like I said, this feels like a natural sort of conversational flow to me - not that they won't talk about this obviously important topic at some point, just that conversations often meander and get sidetracked.

It does mostly -- I think the latest page transition with Zen was pretty painful on both sides -- feel like a natural flow to me as well, but this current page has Natani billing this thing with Keith as 'one more thing you should know', which to me suggests that the whole how-Zen-viewed-Natani thing was never on the conversational agenda to begin with. That's what prompted my initial comment.

Natani is still processing the idea that she was not a weak little girl before being patched with Zen soul and that most of her personality is actually simply himself. He has to still realize: "wait did Zen really thought that low of me?" As long as that idea does not go through Nat's head i don't think they will be having THAT conversation.

Hmm... I've been thinking that the whole I-am-okay-as-I-am realization -- that has been on display -- is inextricably linked to understanding that cause of it. But I suppose something like this could be the answer -- Natani is pretty much a master of not introspecting, after all There's a few other things it could be as well, but I'm pretty much out of intuition to pick any out as feeling right. I do not know how Natani views Zen since the mindscape.


Oh, and of course, this conversation could still go in that direction right now -- it's just that I'm expecting the comedy option of Keith walking in or having walked in on those last lines But if the scene continues as it has been, then a swerve in that direction looks quite likely, after that bomb of a revelation from Natani.

[Niara]

I've got to admit... I really don't understand the degree of vitriol and judgement I see such a shockingly large portion of the fan base throwing around at characters like Zen.

Long-ish discussion of Zen follows, and is only tangentially related to the comic page:


People treating it like some kind of fact that Zen is... I don't know some kind of deliberate chauvinist with extreme views on Natani as being weak and inferior due to physical sex. I mean, honestly... where in the world is anyone getting that impression? How are so many people arriving at that conclusion? There's really nothing in the comic anywhere that even begins to suggest that degree of it... So where is the idea coming from?

Before you start citing comic pages of he-says-she-says from other characters, That's great, but that's second hand proxy descriptions from other characters who are not infallible and who have their own perspectives. I'm talking about Zen, literal Zen, and the way he has behaved and acted in this comic.

Zen is a good person.

Zen is someone who has grown up in a society that enforces a brand of culturally designated female inferiority, and in the face of that, Decided that it wasn't true at all and disregarded it. Are people forgetting that?

When faced with losing his parents, Zen was in a position where he had to care for and protect his sibling; again, let's not forget that they aren't twins, they're sibling, and Zen is the elder. At the time of losing their parents, it doesn't look like either of them were fully grown - Natani literally Was smaller and weaker than him, in a way that had nothing to do with sex. Zen needed to look after and protect, and finish raising to the best of his ability, a younger sibling, while still dealing with his own grief. It would not have mattered what sex Natani was, the necessity and the resultant behaviour, would have been the same... that much is pretty clear to see.

They were also faced with surviving, and rather than adopt the beliefs of his society, Zen disregarded them in favour of acknowledging Natani as every bit as capable as he was, when it came time to worry about finding ways to sustain themselves. They lived in a social setting that would NOT have accepted that, so they did the best thing they could in that situation that wouldn't result in having to curtail Natani's ability to earn keep... which was to pass off as the 'accepted' type for working.

In this circumstance, the fact that mature and hormonally grown up Natani feels more comfortable as a male and would rather be seen as one, is pretty darn understandable, with or without soul influence... this is a character who went through their formative years passing as male precisely because the world they were living in said that males were more capable and better. Natani was just as capable as anyone else, so naturally, the mentality that helps form your identity over those years might easily fall straight into the assumption that you're actually male, even if your body looks wrong.

When the soul crisis happened, parts of the soul were filled in; Natani's self view was then reinforced and varnished over by an external view that complimented it. Zen, who knows that Natani must keep that secret for fear of the trouble it would cause, who loves, cares for, and is desperate to protect that secret so that Natani can continue to live outside of the normal social pressures. Zen who is aware of what his world says about females and who also knows that, at the very least in Natani's case, it is not at all accurate or true, and has disregarded it... yet still has to live within it and pay it lip service. Zen who also did actually have to be the big brother for and do some measure of protecting and caring for, his younger sibling, at some point, and all the affectionate concern that brings with it.

We don't call mothers nasty pieces of work and accuse them of thinking poorly of their child, because from a certain part of their point of view, they can and will always remember seeing them at their most helpless and needing of care... we don't call them demeaning and belittling bullies because a part of them will always see their thirty year old son as 'my little baby'. So why is anyone flinging that kind of slander at Zen?

Similarly, Zen's reactions to the various interpersonal steps that Natani has taken in recent weeks is genuinely shocking to him... Not initially dissimilar to a parent reacting to your first boy/girlfriend (except if your soul-linked sibling were hooking up with the person who literally stabbed you through the chest and left you to die), but also a lot more brotherly after the initial shock; the ribbing comes across as good-natured and cautiously happy for Nat, with a small aside of paternal-like worry. He also gets over it very quickly and rapidly accepts what he is being told and the decisions that Natani is making, despite obvious worries over the dangers that would, in other more normal circumstances, be presented by the secret getting out.

He clearly loves and cares for Natani a great deal; he wouldn't hesitate, it sees, to give his own life for his sibling if it came to such a moment. At the same time, he is very clearly NOT trying to control Nat's decision-making or life choices, and is mostly just trying to feel out where things are currently standing now; his questions seem to be in large part directed towards working out how Natani wants him to behave in relation to the whole mess.

Zen is not just a good brother, Zen is perhaps, the best brother one could ever hope to have, working within a really, really messy, difficult, dangerous and confusing situation.

This is what I have seen, reading the comic.
I have seen a comic that has, in reality, very, very few actual villains, and a lot of people trying to be the best people they know how to be, within the situations they find themselves.

((As an overall aside... for a comic based on the concepts of understanding and acceptance with a focus on healthy communication, there's a shockingly large part of the community here that seems all too eager to judge harshly and denounce characters without a shred of understanding or empathy in their assessments... People everywhere tearing into characters like Zen, Kei and Eric, none of whom deserve that vitriol at all))

[Phaing]

...
((As an overall aside... for a comic based on the concepts of understanding and acceptance with a focus on healthy communication, there's a shockingly large part of the community here that seems all too eager to judge harshly and denounce characters without a shred of understanding or empathy in their assessments... People everywhere tearing into characters like Zen, Kei and Eric, none of whom deserve that vitriol at all))

Welcome to 21st Century Politics.
Every bit as intrusive and judgmental as the Spanish inquisition, minus the promise of eternity in paradise if you do everything correctly.

And you know, when ten or fifteen days go by w/o a new comic, people are bound to over-analyse things out of boredom.

Good post, overall, and I have come down on Zen in the past n ways that maybe I shouldn't have. He just pisses me off, but I do still have an issue with him. It seems to me that he has made decisions based on a panicked retreat to conformity. And in the end, it has gotten him banished from the very society he was trying to conform with.

"Injustice is relatively easy to bear; what stings is justice."
- H. L. Mencken

[amenon]

They were also faced with surviving, and rather than adopt the beliefs of his society, Zen disregarded them in favour of acknowledging Natani as every bit as capable as he was, when it came time to worry about finding ways to sustain themselves.

Flatly untrue. It was Natani who made those moves, over Zen's objections, and later on when the link happened -- when they had both been co-members of the guild for at least some time -- Zen still thought it was just because she was desperate.

When the soul crisis happened, parts of the soul were filled in; Natani's self view was then reinforced and varnished over by an external view that complimented it.

But Zen's view didn't compliment Natani's. It contradicted it. Compromised it. Shattered it. Because Zen saw Natani as weak and desperate, rather than as she actually was. He only understood her through the lens of his own ego. And when that view was imposed on Natani, he recoiled from it so hard that his disgust is still palpable seven years later. He became who he is as a reaction to who Zen thought she had been.

If Zen had actually been, before the link, this person you paint a pretty picture of, then things would have gone rather differently. But. Even so, does any of this actually make young-Zen a bad person? No, just an unfortunate one. He was, as you correctly point out, a kid. How he viewed Natani isn't particularly unexpected, and in any normal circumstance, it's unlikely it would have led to any meaningful harm. But in their very particular circumstances...

He wanted to protect his sister, and -- ironically partly through that desire -- he ended up hurting Natani terribly. It's a tragedy that has not yet come to roost. When it does, and he comes face to face with what happened, that's when we'll see who he really is.

((As an overall aside... for a comic based on the concepts of understanding and acceptance with a focus on healthy communication, there's a shockingly large part of the community here that seems all too eager to judge harshly and denounce characters without a shred of understanding or empathy in their assessments... People everywhere tearing into characters like Zen, Kei and Eric, none of whom deserve that vitriol at all))

I don't want to waste words on Kei -- he's more like a bad middle manager than anything approaching actual evil -- but Eric? The rapist slaver doesn't deserve vitriol?

[Ddraig]

They were also faced with surviving, and rather than adopt the beliefs of his society, Zen disregarded them in favour of acknowledging Natani as every bit as capable as he was, when it came time to worry about finding ways to sustain themselves.

Flatly untrue. It was Natani who made those moves, over Zen's objections, and later on when the link happened -- when they had both been co-members of the guild for at least some time -- Zen still thought it was just because she was desperate.

To be fair to Zen, while he was against it initially (the reasons for which were completely understandable from a parent/surrogate parent point of view - if you had a very dangerous job would you want your kid to follow you into it? Especially if that kid was likely to be killed if they were found out in addition to the already high-risk nature of the job?) he was able to be convinced to allow her to join him despite his (later proven justified) misgivings.

When the soul crisis happened, parts of the soul were filled in; Natani's self view was then reinforced and varnished over by an external view that complimented it.

But Zen's view didn't compliment Natani's. It contradicted it. Compromised it. Shattered it. Because Zen saw Natani as weak and desperate, rather than as she actually was. He only understood her through the lens of his own ego. And when that view was imposed on Natani, he recoiled from it so hard that his disgust is still palpable seven years later. He became who he is as a reaction to who Zen thought she had been.

You probably realize/meant this as well, but I'd like to stress past-tense in "it's how Zen remembered you". Not "remembers", but specifically talking about only at the time of the link being forged and not anymore. So Zen doesn't view her that way any more. At the immediate time of the link's creation, Zen had good reason to think of Nat as weak and helpless; she was literally dying. In the more long term at that point, Zen was still surrogate parent. It was literally his job to take care of her, with the obvious reason that she's less capable than him (true due to age, not necessarily because she's... a she, and though we don't have an explicit explanation as to which reason for that view Zen had, it can be inferred to be primarily due to her age by the phrasing in the split personality scene). It's easy to risk your own skin. It's rather harder to risk another's. It's even harder still to risk one you're responsible for. Was he influenced by the society he was in? I'm sure he was, it's practically impossible to not be influenced by the attitudes of those around you when they consider a matter of course. Zen still hasn't allowed that to push away the evidence before his eyes that Nat is self-supporting and self-sufficient (in as much as anyone can be), bringing us back to the remembered/remembers difference.

If Zen had actually been, before the link, this person you paint a pretty picture of, then things would have gone rather differently. But. Even so, does any of this actually make young-Zen a bad person? No, just an unfortunate one. He was, as you correctly point out, a kid. How he viewed Natani isn't particularly unexpected, and in any normal circumstance, it's unlikely it would have led to any meaningful harm. But in their very particular circumstances...

He wanted to protect his sister, and -- ironically partly through that desire -- he ended up hurting Natani terribly. It's a tragedy that has not yet come to roost. When it does, and he comes face to face with what happened, that's when we'll see who he really is.

((As an overall aside... for a comic based on the concepts of understanding and acceptance with a focus on healthy communication, there's a shockingly large part of the community here that seems all too eager to judge harshly and denounce characters without a shred of understanding or empathy in their assessments... People everywhere tearing into characters like Zen, Kei and Eric, none of whom deserve that vitriol at all))

I don't want to waste words on Kei -- he's more like a bad middle manager than anything approaching actual evil -- but Eric? The rapist slaver doesn't deserve vitriol?

This rest much I pretty much agree with; Kei is trying to do the best he can for others, he just lacks/lacked necessary information and maybe skill. Eric seems to have a decent personality, but does reprehensible things deliberately (mostly offscreen).