Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

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Warrl
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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#16 Post by Warrl »

As for changing the character page reflecting a change in how the artist sees the character... I've had a couple of my own fictional characters grab hold of their own identities and run off in directions I did not anticipate. (Although not in that particular direction. My only character to date with explicitly non-standard gender identity was intentionally created that way.)

Also, consider that this comic has been going on for nearly 15 years now. It began in October 2003. It's entirely possible that Tom's understanding of gender identity has changed since then - that his conception of Natani is pretty much what it has always been, but how he describes it reflects greater knowledge on his part. (My own guess is that this is partly-true - that adult Natani was always intended to be trans, but YoungTani being neutral/fluid - possibly even "existing" - is a newer thing.)

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Sky Shatter
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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#17 Post by Sky Shatter »

I appreciate how this concept continues to inspire discussion, even though there will always be people that smash the SJW button for even mentioning it.

Personally, I'm on the "she" boat. Transgender identity is supposed to be an internal thing. Not so much a choice in the whimsical sense, but self-image viewed without external influences. Even though it can be soundly argued that this is an internal thing for Natani, it was definitely a consequence of external forces. To my recollection, Nat identified as female before the incident, but understood the importance of pretending to be male for her own protection. That's the kind of thing transgenders need to wrestle with: how you feel versus what society demands, and in the modern age we're recognizing that self-image is more important. In that case, Natani was female, and not just because her biology said so.

Now, I wouldn't go so far as to say Zen "broke" her; she was broken by someone else and he did what he could to help/fix her. From there, it's been clearly stated that not only was Zen's male self-image imprinted on Nat, but Zen's belief that Nat's femininity was a weakness as well. One was an unavoidable consequence, but the latter is Zen representing the part of society we're trying to overcome: accepting as fact what was once unwanted but compelled. That's the part people are latching onto when they say he "broke" her. Those two circumstances, though, are external forces that have manipulated Natani's self-image, so while I recognize that Nat sees her self as a guy, I strongly disagree that it's how she would naturally see herself.

Objectively, what she's going through is the fantasy equivalent of someone with gender dysphoria being indoctrinated by society to accept and believe something different. She was revealed to have been a tomboy, but she definitely self-identified as female until external forces hammered in the notion that she wasn't, and the gender-identity movement is about realizing those kinds of external influences shouldn't be the authority.

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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#18 Post by Warrl »

Sky Shatter wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:43 pmTo my recollection, Nat identified as female before the incident, but understood the importance of pretending to be male for her own protection.
According to YoungTani, that was Zen's projection, which post-splice Natani - lacking the usual self-knowledge - accepted as true.

But what YoungTani has to say about it is: "Natani, I didn't cut my hair and dress like a boy just to join the Guild. Secretly, I liked it. I mean, I didn't mind being a girl, but... I liked being seen as a boy." I read that as somewhere between gender-neutral/fluid, and borderline trans.

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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#19 Post by OPisRightYaKnow »

Warrl wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:18 pm
Sky Shatter wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:43 pmTo my recollection, Nat identified as female before the incident, but understood the importance of pretending to be male for her own protection.
According to YoungTani, that was Zen's projection, which post-splice Natani - lacking the usual self-knowledge - accepted as true.

But what YoungTani has to say about it is: "Natani, I didn't cut my hair and dress like a boy just to join the Guild. Secretly, I liked it. I mean, I didn't mind being a girl, but... I liked being seen as a boy." I read that as somewhere between gender-neutral/fluid, and borderline trans.
That's the point. 2016 is fairly recent as far as TK goes, so to use that as an example when people are claiming Tom changed Nat into a trans for the sake of having a trans only further shows that Tom changed how Nat behaves and her backstory to better appeal to his new audience.

There's definitely no argument on what's been said in the comic, it's about why it's happening. It's like if Keith came out as gay because there were jokes and references about it earlier in the comic. It just doesn't make sense for Nat to be trans because of a magical ritual..

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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#20 Post by Warrl »

It just doesn't make sense for Nat to be trans because of a magical ritual..
When a portion of the soul that says "I'm female" is ripped away, and the area is patched with a soul that says "I'm male", it doesn't make sense for the result to say "I'm male"?

I suppose that you believe if you take a green wall and paint it red, it should look green?

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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#21 Post by OPisRightYaKnow2 »

Warrl wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:28 pm
It just doesn't make sense for Nat to be trans because of a magical ritual..
When a portion of the soul that says "I'm female" is ripped away, and the area is patched with a soul that says "I'm male", it doesn't make sense for the result to say "I'm male"?

I suppose that you believe if you take a green wall and paint it red, it should look green?
Yes.
Trans people are not magically made trans. Your example makes no sense here, we're talking about magic and souls; two things that don't exist and have no impact on whether a person is trans or not. If the comic is going to have a trans character, then the character should actually be trans; not someone who has gone through a ritual. It makes it look so stupid, especially with Nat originally not being written in as a trans character (boring argument, don't feel like having it again. Literally read the old "characters" page). The comic has always had an underlying moral of treating people who are different with the same amount of respect you would treat anyone else, so it would be nice to see the trans part of the comic actually revolve around someone who has transgender issues. Nat might have to hide her chest and "act manly", but she also needs to deal with other issues that trans people wouldn't be going through. You know, the whole being mentally and "spiritually" connected to your brother; or having a younger version of yourself in your head that tries to have conversations with you? How exactly does a trans person identify and relate to someone who was in a coma because a magical shackle was put on her brother's ankle?

It's bad writing, because it was made specifically for you and people that think like you.

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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#22 Post by Him »

Discussion about Natani being transgender is also a very difficult subject to let go on because the way that people get heated about. I'm going to nip this one in the bug once again to prevent this from spiraling out of control again.

OPisRightYaKnow appears to have created a third account to comment under, which violates the rules of having multiple accounts as well as his attempt at ban evasion. There will be actions taken in regards to this.

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