Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

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Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#1 Post by Grumar »

He knows it's his sister and that it's basically his fault for screwing up her mental state, does he feel no guilt that he made her the way she is? He broke her and it seemed weigh nothing on his shoulders. Or is this just liberal garbage thrown into the comic claiming anyone can be anything if they just think they are that thing?

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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#2 Post by tony1695 »

Grumar wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:48 am He knows it's his sister and that it's basically his fault for screwing up her mental state, does he feel no guilt that he made her the way she is? He broke her and it seemed weigh nothing on his shoulders. Or is this just liberal garbage thrown into the comic claiming anyone can be anything if they just think they are that thing?
That's a hell of a claim. "Liberal garbage". Let's try to keep RL politics out of this, shall we?

To recap:
Natani's soul was partly destroyed.
Zen's was used as a 'donor' to keep what was left functioning enough to stop Natani being a vegetable.
An unforeseen consequence is that part of the donor's soul would begin to overwrite the host's soul.
Couple that with the generally poor treatment females (allegedly, I don't believe we've seen anything in the comic yet) receive in wolf society, and that Natani had been masquerading as a male for some time at that point...
Natani had gotten used to using male pronouns, and Zen using them to maintain the illusion. When the soul merge became necessary, it just made things a bit worse. It pushed it from "I need to keep using male pronouns so I don't get treated like garbage" to "I'm a guy in a woman's body". More or less.
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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#3 Post by Ddraig »

tony1695 wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:26 am
Grumar wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:48 am He knows it's his sister and that it's basically his fault for screwing up her mental state, does he feel no guilt that he made her the way she is? He broke her and it seemed weigh nothing on his shoulders. Or is this just liberal garbage thrown into the comic claiming anyone can be anything if they just think they are that thing?
That's a hell of a claim. "Liberal garbage". Let's try to keep RL politics out of this, shall we?

To recap:
Natani's soul was partly destroyed.
Zen's was used as a 'donor' to keep what was left functioning enough to stop Natani being a vegetable.
An unforeseen consequence is that part of the donor's soul would begin to overwrite the host's soul.
Couple that with the generally poor treatment females (allegedly, I don't believe we've seen anything in the comic yet) receive in wolf society, and that Natani had been masquerading as a male for some time at that point...
Natani had gotten used to using male pronouns, and Zen using them to maintain the illusion. When the soul merge became necessary, it just made things a bit worse. It pushed it from "I need to keep using male pronouns so I don't get treated like garbage" to "I'm a guy in a woman's body". More or less.
also I don't believe that Zen yet knows that Group A found out that Natani is biologically female, and Nat prefers to hide that fact. I'd say it would be a rather [censored] move to out that when he believes it's still a secret (especially considering they'd have Issue with the Assassin's Guild if the Guild found out).
As for "He broke her", there is a MAJOR difference between breaking someone (what that Mage in Nat's backstory did) and trying to save someone as best you can but not being able to heal them 100%. You don't blame the organ donor if the kidney they donate turns out to only have 75% function.
I'm rather confused here. I can only see you drawing those conclusions if you hadn't actually read the comic, but I also can't see how you could have had the information TO draw those conclusions unless you had.
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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#4 Post by AmigaDragon »

Ddraig wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:39 pmalso I don't believe that Zen yet knows that Group A found out that Natani is biologically female, and Nat prefers to hide that fact. I'd say it would be a rather [censored] move to out that when he believes it's still a secret (especially considering they'd have Issue with the Assassin's Guild if the Guild found out).
Zen does know that at least Kat knows Nat's secret, he just got done thanking her for the "girl talk". He just doesn't know how many of the group knows (or believes yet) her secret. Mike and Evals seem to have a little trouble believing her explicit "how I've always been".
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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#5 Post by Ddraig »

AmigaDragon wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:23 am
Ddraig wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:39 pmalso I don't believe that Zen yet knows that Group A found out that Natani is biologically female, and Nat prefers to hide that fact. I'd say it would be a rather [censored] move to out that when he believes it's still a secret (especially considering they'd have Issue with the Assassin's Guild if the Guild found out).
Zen does know that at least Kat knows Nat's secret, he just got done thanking her for the "girl talk". He just doesn't know how many of the group knows (or believes yet) her secret. Mike and Evals seem to have a little trouble believing her explicit "how I've always been".
Oh, right, duh. Can't believe I'd forgotten about that
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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#6 Post by Him »

Grumar wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:48 amOr is this just liberal garbage thrown into the comic claiming anyone can be anything if they just think they are that thing?
I don't recommend talking like that on this forum. Such statements are inflammatory and cause unnecessary conflict. Negative opinions are, to an extent, allowed as long as they are reasonable criticism. Lashing out because you dislike something in the story is not acceptable.

Disregarding the real life political, religious, and maybe even moral implications of transgenderism is important for Natani's role in the story. In-universe this is not a choice for Natani. Natani's soul itself was damaged and patched back together with Zen's own soul.

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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#7 Post by Phaing »

This thread reminds me why it is important to avoid threads like this.

I trust the writer to do the right thing with his story, to take me to new and interesting places, and to make the story-arc as enjoyable as possible.
Otherwise, I wouldn't be here.
No joke, I have left several sites behind when I lost faith, but I'm in it for the long haul here.

I'm actually more worried about Kei right now. He had a horrible day and he was always trying to do the right thing, as he saw it.
I wonder if that means he's going to turn bad all of a sudden...
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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#8 Post by notahorseshoecrab »

Grumar wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:48 am He knows it's his sister and that it's basically his fault for screwing up her mental state, does he feel no guilt that he made her the way she is? He broke her and it seemed weigh nothing on his shoulders. Or is this just liberal garbage thrown into the comic claiming anyone can be anything if they just think they are that thing?
I'd like to point out that their minds are linked and they can know each other's thoughts and feelings unless they block the other out. Natani thinks of himself as a man, thus Zen thinks of Natani as a man. Also the mental link is a side effect of a procedure to save Natani, it was some random dude who knew magic that broke Natani's soul and then died.

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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#9 Post by Tyger42 »

Grumar wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:48 am He knows it's his sister and that it's basically his fault for screwing up her mental state, does he feel no guilt that he made her the way she is? He broke her and it seemed weigh nothing on his shoulders. Or is this just liberal garbage thrown into the comic claiming anyone can be anything if they just think they are that thing?
And you've just announced what a willfully ignorant troll you really are. Transgender goes way beyond just "thinking" they're another gender, and if you took the time to learn about it rather than just parroting what the religious right tells you, you'd know that. But they depend on people not looking into issues. Those are the only people who'll buy into their ideologies.

If you've read the comic at all, you should know that it slants left on such social issues anyway. If you have a problem with that, then you're free to leave. Or you can stay, be respectful, and expand your understanding if you're tired of being stuck in a small minded, hateful view of the world.

Also of note, Natani isn't a typical "transgender", as there's magic involved in his status, but it's ingrained into his whole identity now, so he may as well be. Doesn't really matter how he got there, he's there.


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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#10 Post by Warrl »

Real-world standards on the matter are wholly non-applicable to the case of Natani, because the real world doesn't have magic to rip a soul apart or to splice two souls together. They also wouldn't be particularly applicable to Clovis or Typhan-knee who were also magically made transgender by a different route.

But in the real world...

There is evidence - not particularly compelling evidence at this point due to small sample sizes - that the roots of gender identity lie in the intersection of neuroscience and embryology. More specifically, it appears that in at least three separate areas of the brain transwomen collectively resemble women more than they do men, and transmen resemble men more than they do women. (There isn't a sharp demarcation between men and women in any one of the three; it's more like different, but substantially overlapping, bell curves.) These three areas develop their sex-linked differing distributions in utero, at different times, and not at the same time as any of the major events in the development of reproductive organs or external genitalia.

More study is needed to better understand simple, clear-cut cases of transgender, let alone the more confusing matter of gender-neutral and gender-fluid people (such as me), or bigender people. And it wouldn't surprise me if it turns out that being neutrois actually is largely a consequence of social upbringing, specifically some form of abuse, mostly of people who would otherwise have been gender-neutral or agender - but then again it wouldn't surprise me if that also turns out to be determined in utero.

Now I'm not one of those who endorse the idea that "I'm feeling female today" should be carte blanche for a guy who looks slightly less female than Hulk Hogan to stand in the ladies' room ogling little girls. Or for a woman who resembles Jessica Rabbit to behave similarly in the men's room. People who act like sexual predators in public restrooms should be arrested for acting like sexual predators in public restrooms, period, I don't care what their physical sex is, what their gender is, or which restroom they are in.

However, I also can't go along with the notion that the shape of a bit of flesh in one's crotch can, does, or should dictate how one's brain works.

Also, people who are dressed as the opposite of their physical sex because of their gender identity, generally don't want other people to know. So a transwoman dressed as a woman will probably be BETTER behaved in a public ladies' room than the average woman. But not outside of normal range. And an apparent woman, with a nice rack, wearing a dress, with lovely hair and makeup, using the men's room would be more disruptive than if "he" used the ladies' room.

The only way a law dictating that everyone uses the restroom that matches their physical sex could actually be enforce is by having an inspector at the restroom door demanding that each would-be entrant drop trou. Which ain't gonna happen for several different reasons (one, who pays these inspectors?).

Or, fall back on just arresting the troublemakers. Which, you don't need a law against non-standard gender identities to do that. Such a law would just be an extra charge for the overwhelming majority of the troublemakers, and one more thing to make transgender people feel persecuted.

=======================

Aside: because of those apparent overlapping bell curves, my suspicion is that a rather large proportion of the population - perhaps even a majority - are actually gender-neutral or close to it. However, most people never encounter cause to really think about the matter. So they assume, without examination, that their gender matches their physical sex; and since gender-neutral people more or less don't have a mental gender, and to the limited extent that they do it'll match their physical sex probably a bit over half the time, they never experience enough of a conflict to really notice let alone figure out the cause.

As evidence of this I would point to another forum I'm on (if it were not semi-private), for writers, where someone recently posted a question of - paraphrasing - "how can a male write a female main character? Women are so different!" and got approximately seventy zillion responses of "don't worry about male or female, just write characters! They're pretty much the same!" with nobody echoing - or even displaying much understanding of - the original question.

That answer is what one would expect from a gender-neutral person, and is the answer I would have given if there weren't a large number of copies of it there before I got to the thread, but it seems to me that the question is quite plausible from a man for whom his gender is a critically important part of his sense of self. Also that the abundant answer is not likely to be much help to such a person, because to him being female is the epitome and center of "not like me".

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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#11 Post by aitaituo »

Have these brain studies examined differences between pre-HRT, on HRT, and long-term HRT subjects? Not that real world neurology is probably going on in Tom's mind when he writes Natani, but that would give some serious insight into what's happening in her head.

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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#12 Post by OPisRightYaKnow »

tony1695 wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:26 am
Grumar wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:48 am He knows it's his sister and that it's basically his fault for screwing up her mental state, does he feel no guilt that he made her the way she is? He broke her and it seemed weigh nothing on his shoulders. Or is this just liberal garbage thrown into the comic claiming anyone can be anything if they just think they are that thing?
That's a hell of a claim. "Liberal garbage". Let's try to keep RL politics out of this, shall we?

To recap:
Natani's soul was partly destroyed.
Zen's was used as a 'donor' to keep what was left functioning enough to stop Natani being a vegetable.
An unforeseen consequence is that part of the donor's soul would begin to overwrite the host's soul.
Couple that with the generally poor treatment females (allegedly, I don't believe we've seen anything in the comic yet) receive in wolf society, and that Natani had been masquerading as a male for some time at that point...
Natani had gotten used to using male pronouns, and Zen using them to maintain the illusion. When the soul merge became necessary, it just made things a bit worse. It pushed it from "I need to keep using male pronouns so I don't get treated like garbage" to "I'm a guy in a woman's body". More or less.
Couple that with the generally poor treatment females (allegedly, I don't believe we've seen anything in the comic yet) receive in wolf society, and that Natani had been masquerading as a male for some time at that point...
You are literally proving OP's point by making this claim. For those of us that have been reading the comic since it started, it's actually extremely annoying to see Nat go from having a cool backstory to being a transgender. I'll be that guy, it's the Patrons' fault. They're forcing random garbage to be canon and Tom realized that the majority of his audience are turning into a bunch of people that just want to see a fully trans character in the story. Literally 9 out of 10 sketches are gender swaps, try and tell me that it's always been that way. There were occasional Trace sketches as a female keidran, but it wasn't every other sketch. Tom is just playing to his new audience to keep people reading.

Nat was never a transgender, so she shouldn't be portrayed as one.

This is right off of the wiki, which further shows how this fanbase is forcing things to be canon that just aren't. I have no problem with having a transgender character, but Natani shouldn't be one for the sake of having one if she never was trans in the first place.
Natani is the first character introduced that would be considered 'LGBT+' in our world, being as he is both transgender and bisexual. The only other characters clearly shown to be queer are Kathrin, who has shown sexual or romantic tendencies towards both male and female characters, including Eric, Flora, Natani, and Trace; Alaric, who shows attraction to Keith; and Keith, who shows attraction to Natani.

Let's not mention the fact that Tom literally changed the about page so that he would stop getting angry emails from confused kids.
Old
Gender: Female (disguised as male)
Current Age: ~13
Class: Magi Brother Assassin
Species: Wolf Keidran
Sexuality: Bi-sexual

Personality: A very confused wolf.

Natani was forced to live homeless with her brother after her parents and tribe were destroyed by human Templars. She eventually disguised herself as a male and, along with her brother, joined an assassins guild to make ends meet. Due to an accident during an assassination mission, Natani became magically and permanently linked to her brother, and much of her brother's male personality overpowered her own. Though she realizes her body is female, she has convinced herself she is really male.

Natani has never had a formal education and is thus illiterate. She cannot write in any language, and can only speak Keidran. She can only understand a few human words. Thus, Natani will often find herself left in the dark during conversations between species.

New
Natani
Gender: Male
Age: ~13
Class: Assassin
Species: Wolf Keidran
Languages: Keidran
Personality: Brash, abrasive, and secretly lonely. Natani pushes all but a few away emotionally.

The younger of the Assassin Brothers. Natani was forced to live homeless with his brother, Zen, after their parents and tribe were destroyed by human Templars. Through desperation, he and Zen joined an assassins guild to make ends meet. Due to an accident during an assassination mission, Natani became magically and permanently linked to his brother's mind. They can now actively read each other's thoughts and emotions through their link, which allows them to communicate over long distances. This link, while a huge advantage in the field, is not without its disadvantages. They can never be separated, and it is unknown what will happen if one should die.

Natani has never had a formal education and is thus illiterate. He cannot write in any language, and can only speak Keidran, though he can understand a handful of human words. Nevertheless, Natani will often find himself left in the dark during conversations between species.

You can say Tom has every right as the author to make these changes, but these changes are being made specifically because there's a very vocal community in his audience that want things written their way. Again, I'm more than okay with transgender characters; especially in a comic that was conceived because of the prejudices of others. However, as a long time reader I would have appreciated Tom adding a new character instead of changing one to fit the criteria. It also seems kind of wrong too if you think about it. We don't have a strong transgender character who was born that way, we have a strong character who was turned into a transgender by the power of magic.. Like what? To be a confident trans person you need to start off not trans?

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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#13 Post by Hulk10 »

OPisRightYaKnow wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:22 pm
tony1695 wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:26 am
Grumar wrote: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:48 am He knows it's his sister and that it's basically his fault for screwing up her mental state, does he feel no guilt that he made her the way she is? He broke her and it seemed weigh nothing on his shoulders. Or is this just liberal garbage thrown into the comic claiming anyone can be anything if they just think they are that thing?
That's a hell of a claim. "Liberal garbage". Let's try to keep RL politics out of this, shall we?

To recap:
Natani's soul was partly destroyed.
Zen's was used as a 'donor' to keep what was left functioning enough to stop Natani being a vegetable.
An unforeseen consequence is that part of the donor's soul would begin to overwrite the host's soul.
Couple that with the generally poor treatment females (allegedly, I don't believe we've seen anything in the comic yet) receive in wolf society, and that Natani had been masquerading as a male for some time at that point...
Natani had gotten used to using male pronouns, and Zen using them to maintain the illusion. When the soul merge became necessary, it just made things a bit worse. It pushed it from "I need to keep using male pronouns so I don't get treated like garbage" to "I'm a guy in a woman's body". More or less.
Couple that with the generally poor treatment females (allegedly, I don't believe we've seen anything in the comic yet) receive in wolf society, and that Natani had been masquerading as a male for some time at that point...
You are literally proving OP's point by making this claim. For those of us that have been reading the comic since it started, it's actually extremely annoying to see Nat go from having a cool backstory to being a transgender. I'll be that guy, it's the Patrons' fault. They're forcing random garbage to be canon and Tom realized that the majority of his audience are turning into a bunch of people that just want to see a fully trans character in the story. Literally 9 out of 10 sketches are gender swaps, try and tell me that it's always been that way. There were occasional Trace sketches as a female keidran, but it wasn't every other sketch. Tom is just playing to his new audience to keep people reading.

Nat was never a transgender, so she shouldn't be portrayed as one.

This is right off of the wiki, which further shows how this fanbase is forcing things to be canon that just aren't. I have no problem with having a transgender character, but Natani shouldn't be one for the sake of having one if she never was trans in the first place.
Natani is the first character introduced that would be considered 'LGBT+' in our world, being as he is both transgender and bisexual. The only other characters clearly shown to be queer are Kathrin, who has shown sexual or romantic tendencies towards both male and female characters, including Eric, Flora, Natani, and Trace; Alaric, who shows attraction to Keith; and Keith, who shows attraction to Natani.

Let's not mention the fact that Tom literally changed the about page so that he would stop getting angry emails from confused kids.
Old
Gender: Female (disguised as male)
Current Age: ~13
Class: Magi Brother Assassin
Species: Wolf Keidran
Sexuality: Bi-sexual

Personality: A very confused wolf.

Natani was forced to live homeless with her brother after her parents and tribe were destroyed by human Templars. She eventually disguised herself as a male and, along with her brother, joined an assassins guild to make ends meet. Due to an accident during an assassination mission, Natani became magically and permanently linked to her brother, and much of her brother's male personality overpowered her own. Though she realizes her body is female, she has convinced herself she is really male.

Natani has never had a formal education and is thus illiterate. She cannot write in any language, and can only speak Keidran. She can only understand a few human words. Thus, Natani will often find herself left in the dark during conversations between species.

New
Natani
Gender: Male
Age: ~13
Class: Assassin
Species: Wolf Keidran
Languages: Keidran
Personality: Brash, abrasive, and secretly lonely. Natani pushes all but a few away emotionally.

The younger of the Assassin Brothers. Natani was forced to live homeless with his brother, Zen, after their parents and tribe were destroyed by human Templars. Through desperation, he and Zen joined an assassins guild to make ends meet. Due to an accident during an assassination mission, Natani became magically and permanently linked to his brother's mind. They can now actively read each other's thoughts and emotions through their link, which allows them to communicate over long distances. This link, while a huge advantage in the field, is not without its disadvantages. They can never be separated, and it is unknown what will happen if one should die.

Natani has never had a formal education and is thus illiterate. He cannot write in any language, and can only speak Keidran, though he can understand a handful of human words. Nevertheless, Natani will often find himself left in the dark during conversations between species.

You can say Tom has every right as the author to make these changes, but these changes are being made specifically because there's a very vocal community in his audience that want things written their way. Again, I'm more than okay with transgender characters; especially in a comic that was conceived because of the prejudices of others. However, as a long time reader I would have appreciated Tom adding a new character instead of changing one to fit the criteria. It also seems kind of wrong too if you think about it. We don't have a strong transgender character who was born that way, we have a strong character who was turned into a transgender by the power of magic.. Like what? To be a confident trans person you need to start off not trans?
Good idea on Tom's part to change the character page. I'm also a ok with transgender characters.
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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#14 Post by Neptune »

Doesn't Zen call Natani "sis?" Am I missing something? Are they all speaking Hungarian?
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Re: Why does Zen refer to natani as his brother?

#15 Post by MuonNeutrino »

Neptune wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:07 amDoesn't Zen call Natani "sis?"
Not usually. He of course refers to Natani as his brother when talking to others who don't know the secret, but even when speaking directly to Nat he uses 'brother' as well. For a couple examples, in comic 344 he calls Natani 'little brother' and just 'brother' in comic 688. Additionally, he refers to Natani as 'my dear brother' in the previous comic when talking to Kat, who *does* know Natani's secret. The only times I've been able to find him referring to Natani as his sister were all from before the soul link.
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