TwoKinds [of] data

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backonninja
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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#16 Post by backonninja »

You made a chart showing who talks the most.

I was wondering if you could do one that shows the correlation between then the character is present in the scene and how much they say. For example, Raine isn't going to be talking very much pre-basitin isle arc.

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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#17 Post by Technic[Bot] »

backonninja wrote: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:33 am You made a chart showing who talks the most.

I was wondering if you could do one that shows the correlation between then the character is present in the scene and how much they say. For example, Raine isn't going to be talking very much pre-basitin isle arc.
Sure pal:
Talking Score
Spoiler!
You actually mentioned something i had been wanted to do. As you said there is not much comparison between characters as they have been in the comic for different periods of time. So Roselyn has far less dialogue than Flora, for example, simply because she has been in the comic for way less time. So a different metric is necessary, but i had not been able to come with a good one. But thanks to you I got an idea that might fit the bill.
We can count the amount of lines a character has had and in how many pages he has appeared we divide these two numbers and we get an score:

Code: Select all

Score = Number of lines/Pages it has appeared in
So recurring characters are penalized while talkative but not common characters are favored by the score. This score can tell us which characters are more talkative, if he appears often but only grunts his score will be pretty low, on the other hand if every time the character appears gives a master dissertation its score will be pretty high.
So without any further ado:
Spoiler!
Image
Here we can see how the tables turned: Roselyn has the highest score every time she is on the comic she really has a lot to say. We can also see that otherwise talkative characters : Keith Nat Trace and Flore are more in the middle of the list rather than at the very top. Raine for her part sits slightly on top Flora.
A few things i must clarify thought: I omitted all characters with less than 70 lines of dialogue. First to keep the chart size manageable and second because the score favor side characters who only appear a couple times and say very little.
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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#18 Post by Technic[Bot] »

So a new year and thus more interesting data to analyse!
So for starters I decided to do something a bit simpler some stuff that is been on my backlog for a couple months now:
The timeline and the comic's Popularity:
A kind Timeline
Spoiler!
One of the most curious things regarding the comic is its longevity, the thing is 15 years at the time on writing and it does no looks like is going to end anytime soon.
Yet the story sometimes moves at a snail pace. And at this point it is almost an inside joke with the fans but one has to wonder:
When will the comic be finished?
To that I cannot give you an straight answer but I did some numbers a couple months ago to calculate how much time passes "in universe" compared to the time Toms
takes to write. I posted somewhere in the forum but I can't for the life of me find it so decided to do it all over again!
First some disclaimers:
Is this an accurate and objective take on the temporal differences between the comic and our world? Of course not.
Is it a joke I took to far? Most definitely
So since just writing some numbers is kinda boring i decided to make a small timeline on the events in Mekkan universe but it is indexed on real world years. A picture is worth more than a thousand words so here it is:
Image
First of all excuse the overlapping the plotting software was getting real uncoperative this time.
So i better explain this: Assuming the comic moves at an uniform pace: No time jumps or stuff like that, and Tom draws more or less ath the same time. And considering the history has taken 4 months from when it started to now and selecting a cutoff point on October 22 2018 (the 15 year anniversary) when can calculate that time In Mekkan runs approximately 45 times slower than real time.
Using that information you can plot a timeline with interesting events and when, at current publishing speed, it would take to get there.
I marked the comic start on October 22 2003 and added a mark every 250 years on October. The first event Trace birth, would have occurred in the middle ages around year 881 and the last, his death coincidentally would occur in year 4741.
I added most characters birthdays and a given all Kiedran characters 25 years of lifespan and humans/basitins 75 years. Also, considering a 9 months pregnancy Flora's and Trace's baby would be born on 2040, considering she is on first trimester. In the case of Therie's ,the only other mother expecting a hybrid, her son woudl be born on 2048 assuming she just conceived.
Also tried to add Nora birth, 2000 years ago in Mekkan but that just overflowed my date variables and can't plot it. If you are curious That would be 90,000 years ago, around the time we humans figure out how to build huts.
Well that was fun whats is next?

So, how popular is this thing?
Spoiler!
One of my first ideas when creating this thread was to answer a question:
How popular is the comic and Tom by proxy?
I found the comic by sheer accident: by following recomended youtube videos, as a side note do not do that is bad for your sanity. So i really have no idea if it is a niche product or if it is somewhat well known. Honestly i could go to the FAQ sub forum and ask: "Hey how popular is the comic on general" an I might still do that later, but i can't make graphs out of that can I?
Anyhow I can get some approximation of the comic and Tom popularity/exposure by counting his twitter followers and patreons, you might consider that to be a "terrible" way to measure exposure and popularity and i will have to agree, but i do not have access to better estimators like page views, bounce rates and other traffic metrics, so this will have to do.
Of course those numbers alone say nothing I need to compare it with something else preferably something similar. Sadly i do not read other webcomics and i am not well versed on the whole "digital artist" ecosystem to propose any other comparative points.
Fortunately i did not have too, the official Twokinds twitter follows some other accounts and decided to compare against them, not only that the comic page itself has a "links" section that takes to other works, so i will be referencing those too.
After that it was just of matter of plotting but before some disclaimer:
The forum has a rule against promoting/advertising stuff. I consider this to be in the clear but just to be safe: I have no relation with any of the persons / artworks / accounts I am about to mention. Also I will will refer to them by name if available, or twitter handle if not, and refrain to post any links to their page of any of their works. If you are that interested you can go to the aforementioned places and match authors with comic.
Ok now without further ado the graphs:
Image
So after a cursory glance it is evident Twokinds is quite popular right? Well sort of, it is by far the comic/person with the most Patreons and Twitter followers on the of the sample but with only 30 k followers it is not that popular on absolute terms, even Markiplier has a couple million followers and simply as a reference: Jim Stirling a videogame journalist has over 200k. So what i am trying to say is he is far more popular than i expected, yet this sample is too small and thus unconclusive.
So after all that I hope you all have fun or learned something new at least. I am meaning to post more interesting stuff here over the course of the year but it will take some time.
Until then See ya!
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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#19 Post by NuclearBird »

That timeline... I might have to look into vampirism as a solution to the longevity problem.
If the universe is infinite, does that mean that there is a version of me out there who's thinking the exact same thing?

While we're on the topic of alternate universes, is there one where I'm a lawyer? If yes, then I may be more evil than I thought.

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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#20 Post by Dadrobit »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:42 am https://i.imgur.com/AZCfLmO.png
I appreciate what you did with the popularity graphs, I'd definitely love to see other popular webcomic creators and their respective followings represented alongside it in the future. Tom looks good compared to the folks you've compared him to who are all more or less within their own same circle. I agree it would be unfair to pit them against content creators creating completely different content and media formats like Markiplier and/or Jim [censored] Sterling, but you can put them up against a following the likes of Jeph Jacques of Questionable Content at almost 7k patreons and 80k Twitter followers, and it does put Tom's pond into perspective. :mrgrin:

(Interesting to note that QC and TK started only a month separated from one another)

As an aside, I'm always a little surprised seeing John Joseco so low at under 1k followers. HoS is up there for one of my favorites
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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#21 Post by Neptune »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:42 am -snip-
"Therie['s] child is born"
What does that mean? The only interspecies couple in the entire world that can actually produce fertile offspring would be Trace and Flora.
Image Haha, he's so tiny! Where is he going?

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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#22 Post by Warrl »

Neptune wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:16 pm
Technic[Bot] wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:42 am -snip-
"Therie['s] child is born"
What does that mean? The only interspecies couple in the entire world that can actually produce fertile offspring would be Trace and Flora.
We have no reason to believe that is the case. It doesn't even make much sense considering what Ephemural said - it's kind of rough hanging the existence of a race on ONE child that hadn't even been conceived yet. Particularly since the child would likely be ostracized by both parent races. And if Ephemural can change the rules enough to allow the one couple to create a hybrid, why not allow ANY couple of the same races to do so? That would make things a lot easier and more sure...

Meanwhile... we know that keidran culture and biology allow for teenager-equivalents to be a lot more sexually active than is typical of human cultures; that human teenagers often have contact with keidran teenager-equivalents; that it's generally known that keidran/human hybrids aren't possible, which means that teenagers of both species can have sex freely with zero risk of unwanted children as long as it's interracial; that there's at least one lineage of keidran slaves specifically bred to be attractive sex-toys for humans; that there's a village were - by rumor - keidran and human interact as equals.

It's reasonable to conclude that, no matter what society in general may officially say about it, keidran/human sex is... ahem... not unusual. (Read: most teenagers and many young adults are [censored] like bunnies.)

So right now there are probably a LOT of young ladies of both races wondering why they are showing symptoms of pregnancy...

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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#23 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Dadrobit wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:45 pm I appreciate what you did with the popularity graphs, I'd definitely love to see other popular webcomic creators and their respective followings represented alongside it in the future. Tom looks good compared to the folks you've compared him to who are all more or less within their own same circle. I agree it would be unfair to pit them against content creators creating completely different content and media formats like Markiplier and/or Jim [censored] Sterling, but you can put them up against a following the likes of Jeph Jacques of Questionable Content at almost 7k patreons and 80k Twitter followers, and it does put Tom's pond into perspective. :mrgrin:

(Interesting to note that QC and TK started only a month separated from one another)

As an aside, I'm always a little surprised seeing John Joseco so low at under 1k followers. HoS is up there for one of my favorites
You know the way i do these graphs makes its very easy to update them.
Spoiler!
Image
Also i hope you see the problem. Now you can't see the others bars...
But if you have more data point suggestions I am all ears!
Curiously enough Mr Joseco was the only other person on the list i was actually aware of. And the y-axis is on tens of thousand, he has a bit over 6.5k followers.
Warrl wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:13 am We have no reason to believe that is the case. It doesn't even make much sense considering what Ephemural said - it's kind of rough hanging the existence of a race on ONE child that hadn't even been conceived yet. Particularly since the child would likely be ostracized by both parent races. And if Ephemural can change the rules enough to allow the one couple to create a hybrid, why not allow ANY couple of the same races to do so? That would make things a lot easier and more sure...

Meanwhile... we know that keidran culture and biology allow for teenager-equivalents to be a lot more sexually active than is typical of human cultures; that human teenagers often have contact with keidran teenager-equivalents; that it's generally known that keidran/human hybrids aren't possible, which means that teenagers of both species can have sex freely with zero risk of unwanted children as long as it's interracial; that there's at least one lineage of keidran slaves specifically bred to be attractive sex-toys for humans; that there's a village were - by rumor - keidran and human interact as equals.

It's reasonable to conclude that, no matter what society in general may officially say about it, keidran/human sex is... ahem... not unusual. (Read: most teenagers and many young adults are [censored] like bunnies.)

So right now there are probably a LOT of young ladies of both races wondering why they are showing symptoms of pregnancy...
What you said pal!
However i would not put it past Ephemural to forget/omit turning the baby button "on" on everyone else. After that over-convoluted mess of a plan to use Flora for... uhm... something after making Trace break her heart. It is clear evil machinations ain't this guy forte. Even Willie Coyote had better plans, at least more straightforward, he just had to procure better hardware, but I digress.
On the other hand for what we knowi I am not sure if i would use the phrase "not unusual" but rather: a bit uncommon. There is still a whole lot of prejudice around.
NuclearBird wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:04 am That timeline... I might have to look into vampirism as a solution to the longevity problem.
I would suggest trying cybernetics, I think it is a more plausible way...
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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#24 Post by Dadrobit »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:08 am
You know the way i do these graphs makes its very easy to update them.

https://i.imgur.com/rIsaabY.png
Also i hope you see the problem. Now you can't see the others bars...
But if you have more data point suggestions I am all ears!
Eh, I don't really see it as much of a "problem" per se. I think it's good to have this perspective. Especially when the original inquiry is about the comic's popularity, (and Tom by proxy) I think then it's more prudent to compare him to others within the webcomic spectrum that have active followings for their comics rather than general anthro artists that happen to be within his sphere of influence like Moom and kiit0s. No shade intended of course! I just think it's more relevant, and that the consistency of a webcomic and its ongoing story just generally begets a larger investment in the comic and artist by their viewers over someone who only does random commissions.

Other popular webcomics you may consider adding to the table off the top of my head: :mrgrin:
Zach Weinersmith of SMBC. Twitter 103k Patreon 3368
Rick Griffin of Housepets. Twitter 11.5k Patreon 493
Jon Rosenberg of Goats and Scenes From A Multiverse. Twitter 18.5k Patreon 1094
Trudy Cooper and Doug Bayne of OGLAF. Twitter 35.7k Patreon 1641
Der-shing Helmer of Mare Internum and The Meek. Twitter 17.6k Patreon 757
Rich Burlew of Order of the Stick. Twitter 14.7k. No Patreon.
Randall Munroe of xkcd. Twitter 203k. RIP your graph. No Patreon.
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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#25 Post by Technic[Bot] »

You ask and i shall graph!
You made me work this time, I no longer wanted to use the approximated follower count Twitter displays on its site so I scraped directly the API so now i have more precise numbers. And i changed the graphing library to get nicer bar plots:
Spoiler!
Image
Curiously enough I knew both xkcd and SMBC too. I am not a fan either but I am certainly aware of them. But I am not sure they are good comparisons, both thematically and stylistically to what Twokinds/Tom is: A serialized fantasy story with talking dog people that, hopefully, will eventually end. I find both xkcd and SMBC content to be closer to PhDComics, a strip about (post-)graduate school, and again that has little to do with Twokinds too. But it does give me a good excuse to add James Rolfe the AVGN to the graph so i am keeping them.
You do have a good point on comparing against webcomics in general. As I mentioned I am not well versed on webcomics, anthro art, or digital artist in general to pick good comparisons. And instead of doing proper research for the graphs i went the easy way and simply check wich artworks/artist could be directly found referenced by Twokinds. Shame on me!
Also that inserts a curious bias on the data, because lest be honets here, I don't think Tom would link to a more popular web-comic than his, that is simply bad marketing.
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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#26 Post by Dadrobit »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:21 am You ask and i shall graph!
Is there some three graph limit coming up genie wish style? :mrgrin:
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:21 am But I am not sure they are good comparisons, both thematically and stylistically to what Twokinds/Tom is: A serialized fantasy story with talking dog people that, hopefully, will eventually end.
You do bring up a very good point! Certainly within its own environment even the media classification "webcomic" has its own sub-classifications that create some rather extreme variance. Like you mentioned, gag-a-day comics are appreciably different compared to Tom's story based visual novel. Almost like Garfield to Batman I suppose.

It makes sense then that those styles may attract a larger audience simply on format alone. Often they have characters who maintain their own recognizable traits and ideals, and that retains readership, but the format of gag-a-day means that every interaction is isolated, bite-sized, and manageable which is inviting for new readers. Those characters can largely be understood just by reading the last dozen or so strips, if that. The up front investment of reading through 2000+ pages is something of a requirement when coming into a story based comic like TK. I would imagine that that may increase fan commitment of those who run the gauntlet, but it is a bit of a barrier to entry decreasing the overall potential readership.

The shame is shared! :mrgrin:
Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:21 amAlso that inserts a curious bias on the data, because lest be honets here, I don't think Tom would link to a more popular web-comic than his, that is simply bad marketing.
Even excluding marketing different comics, I think the author's style of Twitter engagement by itself introduces some serious complications. Folks like Tom and John Joseco largely use Twitter almost solely for marketing their own comic. But then you also have people like Jeph Jacques (Or Joseph depending on the graph lol) who also largely use Twitter as a platform just to speak their mind, garnering not only fans of the comics but also folks who've never even read them and simply agree with the authors' various opinions. It really obfuscates the data when trying to study the -Comic's- popularity.

Cue Avril Lavigne's "Complicated".
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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#27 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Dadrobit wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:25 am Is there some three graph limit coming up genie wish style? :mrgrin:
No of course not! I am always eager to get more Topics to discuss in this little thread here and any inquiries or ideas are very welcome. Also since my system is now mostly automated i only need to write the twitter handles and the rests is automatic.
Dadrobit wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:25 am You do bring up a very good point! Certainly within its own environment even the media classification "webcomic" has its own sub-classifications that create some rather extreme variance. Like you mentioned, gag-a-day comics are appreciably different compared to Tom's story based visual novel. Almost like Garfield to Batman I suppose.

It makes sense then that those styles may attract a larger audience simply on format alone. Often they have characters who maintain their own recognizable traits and ideals, and that retains readership, but the format of gag-a-day means that every interaction is isolated, bite-sized, and manageable which is inviting for new readers. Those characters can largely be understood just by reading the last dozen or so strips, if that. The up front investment of reading through 2000+ pages is something of a requirement when coming into a story based comic like TK. I would imagine that that may increase fan commitment of those who run the gauntlet, but it is a bit of a barrier to entry decreasing the overall potential readership.

The shame is shared! :mrgrin:
Indeed there is also the fact that this comic in particular is pretty old, by internet standard at least, so it has a leg up comparing to more recent comics/artwork. Now that you mention it there is the idea of intra-class similarity, meaning, in this case, how Tom compares to other fantasy webcomics preferably of similar style and themes regardless of followers, this lets us examine how relevant is TK among its peers, and then there is inter-class similarity, that is comparing all Twitters accounts with a similar follower numbers regardless of topic wich let us know how popular is Twokinds in a global scope, for example who would have thought Tom has more followers than Geoffrey Hinton one of the fathers of modern artificial intelligence?

Dadrobit wrote: Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:25 am Even excluding marketing different comics, I think the author's style of Twitter engagement by itself introduces some serious complications. Folks like Tom and John Joseco largely use Twitter almost solely for marketing their own comic. But then you also have people like Jeph Jacques (Or Joseph depending on the graph lol) who also largely use Twitter as a platform just to speak their mind, garnering not only fans of the comics but also folks who've never even read them and simply agree with the authors' various opinions. It really obfuscates the data when trying to study the -Comic's- popularity.

Cue Avril Lavigne's "Complicated".
Yeah again some more "insightful" data such as pageviews would be way more better alas you rarely have such high quality data "in the wild" and have to settle for whatever you can get you hand into to answers your question. And now that you mention it. Gauging the comic popularity is just one idea, something more interesting that I have been asking myself is: What is the probability of finding a TK reader on the general population? As you can imagine this is a very difficult question that i am pretty sure i can not answer but well a man can dream right?
( and yeah sorry the name thing was a typo...)
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Timeline Addendum

#28 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Adendum
Well I could have sworn i already posted this here but turns out it was most likely some dream.
Anyhow a couple months ago i posted the twokinds timeline which compared the time passage in real life, it was definitely a joke i took way too far. But still i thing there is potential there. So a couple weeks after I posted that Tom began doing some sketchest about Maddie and Maeve. Like this suggesting those two might end up together or that at least he liked the couple conceptually. A lot of people seemed to like the concept too. So o told myself:
Myself wrote: Wouldn't it be interesting to graph that relationship? Specially since they age at different rate.

So I did exactly that. I used the same methodology from before so I can compare it with real years. For a quick refresher I concluded, I am using the word very lightly now, that time in Mekkan runs 45 times faster than in real life.
Spoiler! Without further ado:
Sorry about the looks of it the program i wrote to make these got lost somehow and i had to rewrote the whole thing. Added Adiras birth and Traces memory loss, or the start of the comic as a reference. As you can sort of see on the table by the time Maeve and Maddie reache adulthood it will be around 2093 and we will likely all be death...
Image
Spoiler! Standard time
Jokes aside after i found we have the current date in the comic, 492. I decided to remove the time scaling and present the graph in standard Mekkan years
Image
Spoiler! Basitin and Keidran
For my last timeline I decided to compare both Keidran/Basitin couples. First we have Natani!Keith and the the hypotetical Maeve!MAdelyn:
As the title suggest i graphed that last one because on one sketch it was shown Old Keith mourning death Natani and Madelyn peeking through the door. So I was left thinking: All things aside could those two be a couple in the far future?
Well not really, Keith is only 2 years her senior. But by the time Nat kicks the bucket, around 26, Madelyn is almost 30 and even if we ignore Maeve, she would live some 6 years more, I am pretty sure she would have someone by then...
Image
That was fun wasn't it?
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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#29 Post by aitaituo »

I like your timelines, even though this one was a little grim.

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Re: TwoKinds [of] data

#30 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Sorry about that.
Believe it or not i made these thinks because i find it fun and i hope people may find it interesting and/or informative not to make people feel sad nor kill their favorite ship or anything.

But yeah lifespan difference is something usually overlooked in the comic yet the timeline puts it front and center. And at the end of the day, Keith, potentially Maddie and by extension Trace are gonna end up being pretty young widows. Which is indeed quite grim... (;_;)

In any case i you want a bit more precision about the dates i compile the graph in tabular format:
Spoiler!
Maddie & Maeve Real Years Mekkan Years
Madelyn birth 1238 475
Adira Birth 1373 478
Maeve birth 1733 486
Trace memory loss 2003 492
Adult Madelyn 2048 493
Adult Maeve 2093 494
Old Maeve 2768 509
Middled Aged Madelyn 3038 515
Maeve Death 2903 512
Sexagenary Madelyn 3938 535
Madelyn Death 4613 550

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