Who has more plot armor?

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Grumar
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Who has more plot armor?

#1 Post by Grumar »

a shounen main characters or literally any character in this comic? seriously even after 10 years at least naurto had the "balls" to kill off a C list character every once and awhile. literally nothing has any consequences in this comic unless you happen to be an antagonist. I'm half expecting the next few chapter to feature a frozen lake surrounded by baddies yet some how everyone still lives, even after terrible mistakes.
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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#2 Post by James Polymer »

Grumar wrote: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:28 am a shounen main characters or literally any character in this comic? seriously even after 10 years at least naurto had the "balls" to kill off a C list character every once and awhile. literally nothing has any consequences in this comic unless you happen to be an antagonist. I'm half expecting the next few chapter to feature a frozen lake surrounded by baddies yet some how everyone still lives, even after terrible mistakes.
Pardon my presumptuousness, but you seem to be a tad unfair in your analysis.

First of all, just because a story slaughters it's cast like Game of Thrones doesn't mean it's somehow "better" than one that doesn't. A main character's death has to happen in a way that serves the overarching narrative; doing it just for shock value trivializes its impact and does the story a disservice. For an example of proper death usage, take the play Romeo and Juliette. While the rivalry between the Montague and Capulet families is considered deadly serious, for the opening acts it seems more akin to the rivalry between college frat houses. We see casual trash talking in ordinary conversation, catcalling opposing women, and a street brawl between their respective servants. :roll: This semi-lighthearted tone is reinforced by Romeo's friend Mercutio, who plays the comic relief and whose antics, while objectionable, still move the audience to laughter. This all comes to a screeching halt when Mercutio is fatally wounded in a duel with Tybalt, partly because Romeo tries to stop the fight. The latter, who until this point has been an easygoing everyman, flies into a guilt-ridden rage and slays his friend's killer. This sets in motion the chain of events leading to the titular characters' mutual suicide and their families' eventual reconciliation. Thus, the death of a main character--two main characters, actually--directly drives the story's plot.

We can find an example of this in the comic as well; namely, Laura's sacrifice during Group A's efforts to rescue Trace and stop the magical corruption of the East Basitin Empire. Besides directly affecting the plot, it was also her character-defining moment, when she found the courage to lay down her life for both the greater good and the man she still loved. :heart: :laura: Furthermore, it occurred at the climax of the then-current story arc, which had an action-packed chapter following several less-actiony chapters devoted to establishing the characters and setting; if you're going to have a main character die, that's the time to do it. The question is, are we at the climactic point of the current story arc, and would a characters death at such a time directly contribute to the plot's progression? I believe the answer is "No" on both counts. Furthermore, I believe it will be some time before a character's death will serve this purpose, for reasons I will elaborate on later.

Back to your second point, where did you get the idea that only antagonists in this comic suffer consequences? :? Laura's death we have already covered, but there are others. Trace's recklessness in using black magic is physically corrupting him, and will eventually consume him unless he trains himself to stop. The Taverndatter sisters lost their home and everything they owned--and presumably their friends and family--when the wolves destroyed their village; meanwhile, Sythe was deemed a traitor to his clan for helping them, and will likely spend the rest of his life in exile with a bounty on his head. Zen suffered severe burns helping Group B escape the magic bubble, and could very well lose his leg. Nora was nearly killed when the incomplete Templar tower exploded on the Basitin Isles and purged the region of magic, and will be left in a coma while she recovers, possibly for centuries (how long is "a long time" to a dragon?). The dead Basitin generals, while they might have seemed like antagonists at the time, were really only pawns in a larger game. You could hardly say the Arms General (who went out of his way to avoid harming Natani and Flora) or Alaric (who gamed the system for years to help Keith, and later did a heel-face turn upon realizing that what's legal isn't always what is right) were villains who deserved to die horribly. And that's not even counting all the minor, innocent people who have been caught in the collective crossfire of these earth-shaking events. I would say there have been consequences aplenty for people other than the antagonists, and we'll see plenty more going forward.

I will concede that we had a fairly sizeable break since a main character has died or even been seriously injured before Zen's plight with Group B. This is because, at its heart, TwoKinds is a story which focuses more on character development than action; what action we do see is used as a vehicle for said development rather than for its own sake. (Remember, this all started as a romantic tug of war between :trace:, :flora: , and :keith: !) We've certainly had characters enduring emotional and psychological injury by the cartload, much of which has had lasting consequences and served to further the plot. This is coupled with the fact that the story has only updated once a week for quite a while, which makes the breaks between action seem longer. But take heart! At this point, the story is exploring how Trace's actions from his days as Grand Templar are coming back to haunt him, so I anticipate we'll have plenty of sturm and drang--and violent, stabbity death--in the near future. 8)
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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#3 Post by notahorseshoecrab »

Trace and Flora probably have the most, I could see people like maybe Keith, Sythe, or Maren for example dying towards the very end of the comic, but it's probably going to end with the majority of the cast surviving, that being said, I'm 78.239745% sure either Zen or Natani will bite the dust but not the other, probably Zen

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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#4 Post by JoeDirt24 »

If ill chose between trace and flora and Zen or Natani, ill pick the trace and flora. Well thats just my opinion. but it still depends on one persons point of view

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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#5 Post by Eclipse »

I did think Zen was going to die for a while, with Natani becoming slowly independent from him, he may not be needed in the story anymore so he'd be a prime candidate to kill off if they needed to (I also think it'd be amusing if afterwards she'd then become mind linked to Keith, but that'd be a lot less likely and would probably undo all of her character development so meh). But since it seems like he's being shipped with Kat now, I'm not as sure that's going to happen.

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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#6 Post by Phaing »

James Polymer wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:25 am Pardon my presumptuousness, but you seem to be a tad unfair in your analysis.
I'll back you 100% on that.
James Polymer wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:25 amFirst of all, just because a story slaughters it's cast like Game of Thrones doesn't mean it's somehow "better" than one that doesn't.
God DAMN, I hate that frakking show!
IMHO, its nothing but a Death-Fest for people who enjoy watching people who are better than they are being humiliated, tortured graphically and then killed in ways that negate everything about that person including their hopes, core beliefs and makes humanity look trashy as a whole.
And yes, I mean "better" in every sense that will enrage the trolls of this world.


I do NOT want that here.
In fact, I do not want to influence Tom at all!!
The product is consistent, engaging and beautiful. I'm not here for Real World stuff, I can get that by walking out my front door... and it can be pretty dreary. Tragic, too. Once you have lost enough loved-ones for real, you don't really have much of a taste for it in your fiction. There are lots of other ways to "keep it real", if that is what is desired.

And BTW, have we forgotten what happened to Trace's first Wife?
That was pretty major... and then there is her Ghost. I mean, wow... if that didn't shake you up, then you must have ice-water for blood.
Speaking of which, I have a feeling that we have not seen the last of that particular Ghost. Can't say why, but there it is.

Oh, one more thing; The Orville dominated the new and hopelessly dark Star Trek series in the ratings.
Might be a lesson there, eh? :wink:
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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#7 Post by Warrl »

I read the first volume of Game of Thrones. I found nothing that would cause me to want any more of it. So I haven't read any further books, and I've never seen the show. For that matter, I went to an SFcon where GRRMartin was the guest of honor, and booked myself solid with panels to go to where he wasn't.

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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#8 Post by OPisRightYaKnow »

The fanbase is slowly dying out and Tom knows it. This forum is a joke compared to a few years ago, and I don't just mean how many people are still here. The posts have gotten 800% cringier and the comic itself reflects the change in the TwoKinds audience. What used to be a community of fantasy enjoying nerds that were interested in the conflict between Humans x Keidran, who have been waiting for more pages about the Templar, has been replaced by annoying kids that just want to see Nat be trans and Kat bending over.

There is no more conflict, every one has plot armor made from some kind of unobtanium. Although this chapter looks promising, with generic stuff leading up to it like "don't look behind the door xD", "i kno ur there :pppppp", and the chapter starting off with Nat's forced trans conflict; I don't have much hope.

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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#9 Post by MuonNeutrino »

So, by 'no more conflict', I assume you missed the last two entire chapters? :roll: If everything is so [censored], why are you here, except to concern troll?
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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#10 Post by Niara »

Folks should be aware that the OP of this thread seems to have recently reactivated their account purely for the sake of casting deeply biased, borderline trollish aspersions with very little, if any, intent to actually have a discussion about the matters. Mostly, they ask loaded, baity questions as a pretext for a miniature rant.

'Opisrightyaknow' appears in a couple of their their threads, unsurprisingly, with the sole purpose of backing the OP up using very similar language and tone; I would be genuinely surprised if it wasn't a sock-puppet, used with the intention of continuing to stir.

This person doesn't seem to be interested in actual conversation or discussion at the present time, and generally doesn't respond to any such attempts. As such, engaging them is most likely just going to be wasted energy.

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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#11 Post by Dadrobit »

Eh, I've kind of resigned myself personally to accepting that Tom unfortunately just doesn't do actual conflict and conflict resolution like he used to anymore. Sure, people get into fights, and maybe even argue about things, but it's not really any more dire than the average episode of the A-Team. Except while the A-Team is over in 30 minutes, we have to wait for months.

Lots of explosions, but nobody ever gets hurt. Even the most minor of badguy grunts will get a scene showing them crawling out of the burning wreckage of a jeep to brush it off and be totally fine. Tom shows big, over the top interactions with his characters, but there's never any real mortal danger. Just mostly hurt feelings. :mrgrin:
Phaing wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:17 am
James Polymer wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:25 am First of all, just because a story slaughters it's cast like Game of Thrones doesn't mean it's somehow "better" than one that doesn't.
God DAMN, I hate that frakking show!
IMHO, its nothing but a Death-Fest for people who enjoy watching people who are better than they are being humiliated, tortured graphically and then killed in ways that negate everything about that person including their hopes, core beliefs and makes humanity look trashy as a whole.
And yes, I mean "better" in every sense that will enrage the trolls of this world.


I do NOT want that here.
God I hate that strawman so damned much. It's actually the worst argument and I swear it comes up every time someone asks about implementing real live conflict in this comic.

"I'd like for there to be legitimate danger in the comic. The lack of any real possibility for mortal hazards for the past seven years is making the comic feel stagnant."

"You just want to torture and slaughter the cast like in Game of Thrones you troll!"

Character deaths can be awesome when done right, (Harry Potter alone off the top of my head had Dumbledore, Fred, Sirius, Snape, and Dobby) and Tom was doing pretty darn good with Alaric and Laura's first death. Then it all just kind of fell apart. Laura's third "death" was the worst imo. It really shaped his writing style going forward of prioritizing doing visually bombastic things over good storytelling.

Phaing wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:17 amIn fact, I do not want to influence Tom at all!!
Ironically, (or maybe intentionally???) you are doing just that. Getting overly upset at just the possibility of where the comic could go has in the past been shown to very much influence Tom and his writing.
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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#12 Post by OPisRightYaKnow »

Niara wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:56 am Folks should be aware that the OP of this thread seems to have recently reactivated their account purely for the sake of casting deeply biased, borderline trollish aspersions with very little, if any, intent to actually have a discussion about the matters. Mostly, they ask loaded, baity questions as a pretext for a miniature rant.

'Opisrightyaknow' appears in a couple of their their threads, unsurprisingly, with the sole purpose of backing the OP up using very similar language and tone; I would be genuinely surprised if it wasn't a sock-puppet, used with the intention of continuing to stir.

This person doesn't seem to be interested in actual conversation or discussion at the present time, and generally doesn't respond to any such attempts. As such, engaging them is most likely just going to be wasted energy.
Good job broski, you cracked the case.

Actually, I chose to make a new account to comment since my old one uses a name that I use for other accounts. I didn't have a problem with people seeing TwoKinds pop up when they searched my name, but with the course the comic has been on since 2017; I'd rather just quietly read this comic without anyone knowing until Tom gives up on it and starts writing his next comic. Also, "sock-puppet"? Did I resort to calling you names? That's a little sad if you ask me, that you can't discuss a comic without the need to feel better than the person your engaging in discourse with.

Exactly what tone am I using, by the way? All I did was claim that the conflict has died down since the start of the comic; which it has, you don't need to be a genius to see that. OP is right, ya know? The comic has turned into which couple do the Patrons "ship" next? Everyone in the group needs to be poking someone else in the group, it's boring now. If you genuinely think there's decent conflict now, then I'm sorry you see gender struggles; relationship issues; and identity issues as conflict. Nothing bad happens in the comic and if something bad does happen "Oh don't worry, little-Nat is here to save the day!". Or Raine gets upset and then someone disappears.
Phaing wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:17 amIn fact, I do not want to influence Tom at all!!
You need to be a Patron to do that, sorry.

I think the truly sad thing here is how rarely Tom visits his own forum. He would much rather see what his Patrons have to say about his comic (which is usually just them writing fanfic in the comments and demanding some more birds and bees in the comic), and you can disagree with this all you want, but that's one of the reasons this comic has been so boring the past few years. Seriously, look at the comments on Patreon. If you aren't cringing, then you probably wrote some let's be honest here.
Spoiler!
DarthKeidran. What more needs to be said?

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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#13 Post by aitaituo »

Having been a patron for like a year now, I don't think Tom is pandering to his patrons. At least, he's yet to pander to me.

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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#14 Post by Ddraig »

OPisRightYaKnow wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:02 pm[...]Did I resort to calling you names?
I don't know if you can use the phrase 'resort to' when it's your go-to default option. Case in point -
OPisRightYaKnow wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:37 pm The fanbase is slowly dying out and Tom knows it. This forum is a joke compared to a few years ago, and I don't just mean how many people are still here. The posts have gotten 800% cringier and the comic itself reflects the change in the TwoKinds audience. What used to be a community of fantasy enjoying nerds that were interested in the conflict between Humans x Keidran, who have been waiting for more pages about the Templar, has been replaced by annoying kids that just want to see Nat be trans and Kat bending over.
If you aren't cringing, then you probably wrote some let's be honest here.
Spoiler!
DarthKeidran. What more needs to be said?
anyway, on to less baity things
Exactly what tone am I using, by the way? All I did was claim that the conflict has died down since the start of the comic; which it has, you don't need to be a genius to see that. OP is right, ya know? The comic has turned into which couple do the Patrons "ship" next? Everyone in the group needs to be poking someone else in the group, it's boring now. If you genuinely think there's decent conflict now, then I'm sorry you see gender struggles; relationship issues; and identity issues as conflict. Nothing bad happens in the comic and if something bad does happen "Oh don't worry, little-Nat is here to save the day!". Or Raine gets upset and then someone disappears.
Have you been solely following the Patreon sketches? There haven't been *any* new ships in-comic since they left Basitin Isle.
Phaing wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:17 amIn fact, I do not want to influence Tom at all!!
You need to be a Patron to do that, sorry.

I think the truly sad thing here is how rarely Tom visits his own forum.
*how rarely Tom comments on his own forum. We don't know how often he reads it, and I, for one, suspect it's a lot more than is immediately apparent by the occasional comments he makes about it (e.g. during stream or in a DA description)
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Re: Who has more plot armor?

#15 Post by James Polymer »

Dadrobit wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:45 am
Phaing wrote: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:17 am
James Polymer wrote: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:25 am First of all, just because a story slaughters it's cast like Game of Thrones doesn't mean it's somehow "better" than one that doesn't.
God DAMN, I hate that frakking show!
IMHO, its nothing but a Death-Fest for people who enjoy watching people who are better than they are being humiliated, tortured graphically and then killed in ways that negate everything about that person including their hopes, core beliefs and makes humanity look trashy as a whole.
And yes, I mean "better" in every sense that will enrage the trolls of this world.


I do NOT want that here.
God I hate that strawman so damned much. It's actually the worst argument and I swear it comes up every time someone asks about implementing real live conflict in this comic.

"I'd like for there to be legitimate danger in the comic. The lack of any real possibility for mortal hazards for the past seven years is making the comic feel stagnant."

"You just want to torture and slaughter the cast like in Game of Thrones you troll!"

Character deaths can be awesome when done right, (Harry Potter alone off the top of my head had Dumbledore, Fred, Sirius, Snape, and Dobby) and Tom was doing pretty darn good with Alaric and Laura's first death. Then it all just kind of fell apart. Laura's third "death" was the worst imo. It really shaped his writing style going forward of prioritizing doing visually bombastic things over good storytelling.
I don't see this as a "strawman" argument at all. In my original message you can see I went on to explain that the death of a main character must serve some storytelling purpose beyond shock and awe, and failing to do this leaves it bereft of impact. In the next paragraph I mentioned Laura's self-sacrifice as an example of a character's death done properly; furthermore, in order for future deaths to have the same impact they must occur at the climactic point of a given story arc and/or when said death would directly contribute to the plot's progression. I only mentioned Game of Thrones because it's the first thing that comes to mind when I see the words "main character death."
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