Keidran Lifespan

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Wobaku
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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#16 Post by Wobaku »

aitaituo wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:54 pm When I say three as the age of maturity, I mean sexual maturity. The human equivalent of 13-15. I've always been reluctant to speculate much on the mental maturity aspect
First off, what mental maturity?

On topic though, if you're referring to pre retcon, dead at 20 lifespans, then i'm tapping out, we simply don't have the kind of evidence to know when they reached certain milestones. And to be perfectly honest I don't think Tom had it all planned out.

Post retcon though, as far as the sexual side goes, I just can't reconcile Flora for example as being an adult that long, she says she was a virgin before trace, and Keidran go into oestrus 2x per year, if we assume her first is at age three that means she's had at least 16-17 heats, and I don't think she has the personality/willpower to resist her urges that long. (Okay not actually in heat at that festival, but under aphrodisiacs so I feel the logic can still be applied.)
Anyway, that Maeve chart has her looking pretty obviously like a toddler, can barely walk on her own, it seems. I can't imagine them going into heat at that age.

Intelligence wise, I believe it is something similar to your first theory, except that the faster learning ceases at about the time of adulthood, 8. Let's say they were learning at approximately 2x the rate a human would (even faster the younger they are, gradually declining over time) and then from adulthood onward they are equal to a human. Let's assume an 8y/o Keidran is equivalent to a 16y/o human, that makes a 10 year old like Kathrin equivalent to an 18 year old. I think that is a fair comparison, even if Kat is a rather naive/ditzy example.

As for why the Templar are outsmarting them/Keidran seem dumber than humans, I think it's safe to assume that Keidran don't have much (any?) of an education system going on, and spend at least as much time fighting/raiding each other than attacking humans, in fact wolves seem to be the only keidran showing any kind of aggression to humanity, and they still find time to send slaving parties into fox territory, at least. Whereas the templar are putting all of their focus on eradicating/breaking one tribe at a time, currently it's the wolves.

Food for thought though, some dogs (decent sized dogs with decent sized brains) can be taught to ''read'' words and simple sentences at a fraction of the age that our children can. And of course they don't know what those words mean but they can differentiate between them and associate them with various things. E.g. ''If I touch the card with this sentence written on it, Dad will give me a treat.'' Yet dogs are of course far less intelligent than us when both are fully grown.
So I don't think it's outside the realms of possibility that an intelligent species might learn faster than us up to a point then become level with us.

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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#17 Post by Hulk10 »

Wobaku wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:30 pm
aitaituo wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:54 pm When I say three as the age of maturity, I mean sexual maturity. The human equivalent of 13-15. I've always been reluctant to speculate much on the mental maturity aspect
First off, what mental maturity?

On topic though, if you're referring to pre retcon, dead at 20 lifespans, then i'm tapping out, we simply don't have the kind of evidence to know when they reached certain milestones. And to be perfectly honest I don't think Tom had it all planned out.

Post retcon though, as far as the sexual side goes, I just can't reconcile Flora for example as being an adult that long, she says she was a virgin before trace, and Keidran go into oestrus 2x per year, if we assume her first is at age three that means she's had at least 16-17 heats, and I don't think she has the personality/willpower to resist her urges that long. (Okay not actually in heat at that festival, but under aphrodisiacs so I feel the logic can still be applied.)
Anyway, that Maeve chart has her looking pretty obviously like a toddler, can barely walk on her own, it seems. I can't imagine them going into heat at that age.

Intelligence wise, I believe it is something similar to your first theory, except that the faster learning ceases at about the time of adulthood, 8. Let's say they were learning at approximately 2x the rate a human would (even faster the younger they are, gradually declining over time) and then from adulthood onward they are equal to a human. Let's assume an 8y/o Keidran is equivalent to a 16y/o human, that makes a 10 year old like Kathrin equivalent to an 18 year old. I think that is a fair comparison, even if Kat is a rather naive/ditzy example.

As for why the Templar are outsmarting them/Keidran seem dumber than humans, I think it's safe to assume that Keidran don't have much (any?) of an education system going on, and spend at least as much time fighting/raiding each other than attacking humans, in fact wolves seem to be the only keidran showing any kind of aggression to humanity, and they still find time to send slaving parties into fox territory, at least. Whereas the templar are putting all of their focus on eradicating/breaking one tribe at a time, currently it's the wolves.

Food for thought though, some dogs (decent sized dogs with decent sized brains) can be taught to ''read'' words and simple sentences at a fraction of the age that our children can. And of course they don't know what those words mean but they can differentiate between them and associate them with various things. E.g. ''If I touch the card with this sentence written on it, Dad will give me a treat.'' Yet dogs are of course far less intelligent than us when both are fully grown.
So I don't think it's outside the realms of possibility that an intelligent species might learn faster than us up to a point then become level with us.
Learning faster than us to a point and then becoming level with us. What a nice phrase, I once read that Neanderthals had shorter childhoods than modern humans.
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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#18 Post by Ddraig »

Hulk10 wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:17 pm
aitaituo wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:54 pm
Spoiler!
When I say three as the age of maturity, I mean sexual maturity. The human equivalent of 13-15. I've always been reluctant to speculate much on the mental maturity aspect, because frankly it can only be fantastical even with the now lengthened lifespan. There really aren't any real world species to compare to human mental development, but for us it takes a very long time for a brain to mature, long, long after the rest of the body is mature. Part of that appears to simply be our evolutionary strategy, but there's also a phsyiological limit. You don't just get smarter by growth patterns and time stimulated hormones, you get smarter by practicing skills, gaining information, and reinforcing memories. The average toddler makes thousands of word-like noises before they say their first word and that is by the conventional reckoning of when they first say mama or dada, which objectively does not appear to be an actual first word, so much as wishful thinking by parents whose reinforcement teaches the child that the sound is special and to expect a special response from a particular person, which in turn hastens the toddler's learning. Human children can't cobble together a cohesive narrative longer than a couple of sentences until they are around five. We struggle with complex clauses until we're around ten to twelve. Many will tell you that most children can't manage to sound educated until they're at least 18 and that's in societies where we mandatorily provide formal education for twelve of those years.

Even with the retconned lifespans, the only realistic way keidran could be as individually smart as humans is if, at the physiological level, they are way, way smarter than humans, meaning that they must be able to memorize and learn at ten times the pace of a human or so. If that were the case, adult keidran should be noticeably more clever than adult humans and basitins, who would then only start to gain an intellectual advantage over keidran through a keidran lifetime+ of accumulated knowledge and experience. If so, why are keidran getting played by the Templar so well?

Another possible explanation, would be that keidran are dumber, but compensate through drastically more sophisticated instincts (including emotions). This is fantastical territory again. Human instincts are very sophisticated, to the point that there isn't a clear way they could be more practical without us being literal bugmen, which pushes the evolutionary pressure towards lower general purpose intelligence. These two forms of biological competence have a push and pull against each other that somewhat transcends evolutionary trends. People have an instinct towards fairness, not beating down on the weak or cheating each other in obvious ways, but the manifestation of that instinct heavily relies on our ability to abstract experience and then reapply those as formulas for new situations. Ants, on the other side of the spectrum, near mindlessly follow their instincts to the point that they behave like broken robots if their antennae and/or eyes are damaged (going in circles, walking into obstacles, failing to eat, etc), but their instincts are so sophisticated that when they function correctly they can build air-conditioned hives and engage in primitive agriculture and animal husbandry. It's not at all clear to me how keidran might have both at the same time, much less while appearing to have the approximate intelligence of humans.

A third possibility would be that keidran intelligence is possible through hypersociality, but this requires them to both faster learners than humans while still somehow less intelligent on an individual level. People get a great deal of their skills, thoughts, and values from each other through social transmission, an ability that borders on low-definition telepathy. Our brain waves synchronize to an extent when we listen to each other. If you're following my train of thought closely here, you're brain has actually partially synchronized with mine at the time I was writing/thinking this post. Keidran brains could operate in a way that's more effective at this, which would allow them to more rapidly develop skills while they go through childhood socialization. There are two serious problems with this idea. First, a brain that is highly dependent on external social input to develop that fast should also be much worse at individual thought and innovation as the neural structure would be grown to be critically dependent on that social input, as otherwise premature individuation could impair the ability to receive and grow around late social input. That would lead to keidran who are functionally mentally ill and noticeably lacking in competence if they don't get properly and fully socialized. There are real world children for whom something like that has happened from isolation and abuse (the most extreme cases have resulted in adults with no functional language ability o.o). Keidran would have a much shorter window where that kind of damage could occur, meaning getting lost in the woods for a month could cause actual brain damage in some sense. The second problem is we've seen too many keidran children living outside of keidran society with no signs of developmental problems. Maeve shouldn't just be shy, she should be in need of special education. Flora, Mike, and Kat should not be fully competent adults because they were raised by humans. Euchre should be weird, really, really weird.

So, yeah. Neutral has to be a biomolecular engineer (beyond) par excellance for keidran intelligence to really make sense.
Hmm yeah you have some good points. However I don't agree with you saying that Keidran are not as smart as humans, which is impossible as they are clearly sentient.
Even among sentients intelligence isn't always the same. It also depends on how you measure "intelligence". AFAIK there are 3 things that can affect that assessment:
Factual knowledge - e.g. that a tomato is a fruit
'Use' knowledge (experience) - e.g. tomatoes don't taste good in a fruit salad
Ability to figure things out (cleverness) - e.g. a good tomato-based fruit salad is salsa
Maybe a fourth, quickness to learn? That would be the major limiting factor for keidran, considering their shorter lifespans. It would be a major determinate on the first two (at least) of the above three.
Personally I tend to use cleverness as a metric for intelligence (RL) opposed to knowledge, but there are other beliefs

In general we haven't evidence of the overall intelligence of the Keidran race in-comic. It's conjecture at the moment
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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#19 Post by Hulk10 »

Ddraig wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:36 am
Hulk10 wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:17 pm
aitaituo wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:54 pm
Spoiler!
When I say three as the age of maturity, I mean sexual maturity. The human equivalent of 13-15. I've always been reluctant to speculate much on the mental maturity aspect, because frankly it can only be fantastical even with the now lengthened lifespan. There really aren't any real world species to compare to human mental development, but for us it takes a very long time for a brain to mature, long, long after the rest of the body is mature. Part of that appears to simply be our evolutionary strategy, but there's also a phsyiological limit. You don't just get smarter by growth patterns and time stimulated hormones, you get smarter by practicing skills, gaining information, and reinforcing memories. The average toddler makes thousands of word-like noises before they say their first word and that is by the conventional reckoning of when they first say mama or dada, which objectively does not appear to be an actual first word, so much as wishful thinking by parents whose reinforcement teaches the child that the sound is special and to expect a special response from a particular person, which in turn hastens the toddler's learning. Human children can't cobble together a cohesive narrative longer than a couple of sentences until they are around five. We struggle with complex clauses until we're around ten to twelve. Many will tell you that most children can't manage to sound educated until they're at least 18 and that's in societies where we mandatorily provide formal education for twelve of those years.

Even with the retconned lifespans, the only realistic way keidran could be as individually smart as humans is if, at the physiological level, they are way, way smarter than humans, meaning that they must be able to memorize and learn at ten times the pace of a human or so. If that were the case, adult keidran should be noticeably more clever than adult humans and basitins, who would then only start to gain an intellectual advantage over keidran through a keidran lifetime+ of accumulated knowledge and experience. If so, why are keidran getting played by the Templar so well?

Another possible explanation, would be that keidran are dumber, but compensate through drastically more sophisticated instincts (including emotions). This is fantastical territory again. Human instincts are very sophisticated, to the point that there isn't a clear way they could be more practical without us being literal bugmen, which pushes the evolutionary pressure towards lower general purpose intelligence. These two forms of biological competence have a push and pull against each other that somewhat transcends evolutionary trends. People have an instinct towards fairness, not beating down on the weak or cheating each other in obvious ways, but the manifestation of that instinct heavily relies on our ability to abstract experience and then reapply those as formulas for new situations. Ants, on the other side of the spectrum, near mindlessly follow their instincts to the point that they behave like broken robots if their antennae and/or eyes are damaged (going in circles, walking into obstacles, failing to eat, etc), but their instincts are so sophisticated that when they function correctly they can build air-conditioned hives and engage in primitive agriculture and animal husbandry. It's not at all clear to me how keidran might have both at the same time, much less while appearing to have the approximate intelligence of humans.

A third possibility would be that keidran intelligence is possible through hypersociality, but this requires them to both faster learners than humans while still somehow less intelligent on an individual level. People get a great deal of their skills, thoughts, and values from each other through social transmission, an ability that borders on low-definition telepathy. Our brain waves synchronize to an extent when we listen to each other. If you're following my train of thought closely here, you're brain has actually partially synchronized with mine at the time I was writing/thinking this post. Keidran brains could operate in a way that's more effective at this, which would allow them to more rapidly develop skills while they go through childhood socialization. There are two serious problems with this idea. First, a brain that is highly dependent on external social input to develop that fast should also be much worse at individual thought and innovation as the neural structure would be grown to be critically dependent on that social input, as otherwise premature individuation could impair the ability to receive and grow around late social input. That would lead to keidran who are functionally mentally ill and noticeably lacking in competence if they don't get properly and fully socialized. There are real world children for whom something like that has happened from isolation and abuse (the most extreme cases have resulted in adults with no functional language ability o.o). Keidran would have a much shorter window where that kind of damage could occur, meaning getting lost in the woods for a month could cause actual brain damage in some sense. The second problem is we've seen too many keidran children living outside of keidran society with no signs of developmental problems. Maeve shouldn't just be shy, she should be in need of special education. Flora, Mike, and Kat should not be fully competent adults because they were raised by humans. Euchre should be weird, really, really weird.

So, yeah. Neutral has to be a biomolecular engineer (beyond) par excellance for keidran intelligence to really make sense.
Hmm yeah you have some good points. However I don't agree with you saying that Keidran are not as smart as humans, which is impossible as they are clearly sentient.
Even among sentients intelligence isn't always the same. It also depends on how you measure "intelligence". AFAIK there are 3 things that can affect that assessment:
Factual knowledge - e.g. that a tomato is a fruit
'Use' knowledge (experience) - e.g. tomatoes don't taste good in a fruit salad
Ability to figure things out (cleverness) - e.g. a good tomato-based fruit salad is salsa
Maybe a fourth, quickness to learn? That would be the major limiting factor for keidran, considering their shorter lifespans. It would be a major determinate on the first two (at least) of the above three.
Personally I tend to use cleverness as a metric for intelligence (RL) opposed to knowledge, but there are other beliefs

In general we haven't evidence of the overall intelligence of the Keidran race in-comic. It's conjecture at the moment
True but that doesn't mean Keidran are unintelligent. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Keidran are highly intelligent. As far as I've seen.
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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#20 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Wobaku wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:30 pm
Intelligence wise, I believe it is something similar to your first theory, except that the faster learning ceases at about the time of adulthood, 8. Let's say they were learning at approximately 2x the rate a human would (even faster the younger they are, gradually declining over time) and then from adulthood onward they are equal to a human. Let's assume an 8y/o Keidran is equivalent to a 16y/o human, that makes a 10 year old like Kathrin equivalent to an 18 year old. I think that is a fair comparison, even if Kat is a rather naive/ditzy example.

As for why the Templar are outsmarting them/Keidran seem dumber than humans, I think it's safe to assume that Keidran don't have much (any?) of an education system going on, and spend at least as much time fighting/raiding each other than attacking humans, in fact wolves seem to be the only keidran showing any kind of aggression to humanity, and they still find time to send slaving parties into fox territory, at least. Whereas the templar are putting all of their focus on eradicating/breaking one tribe at a time, currently it's the wolves.

Food for thought though, some dogs (decent sized dogs with decent sized brains) can be taught to ''read'' words and simple sentences at a fraction of the age that our children can. And of course they don't know what those words mean but they can differentiate between them and associate them with various things. E.g. ''If I touch the card with this sentence written on it, Dad will give me a treat.'' Yet dogs are of course far less intelligent than us when both are fully grown.
So I don't think it's outside the realms of possibility that an intelligent species might learn faster than us up to a point then become level with us.
They probably learn faster, also a lot of are capable of walking, running, not choking on their own saliva and much more from birth. While for us humans take over a year to master*. Since it is safe to assume most Keidran are fully mobile a few weeks after birth they can have all sort of mental stimuli that a human baby can't, thus learning faster.
On respect to education, even if Keidran were leagues more intelligent than humans, they simply do not live long enough. IRL I have spent over 20 years in school, and counting, even an academically inclined Keidran could only dream of doing that, I imagine their education system if any, is more free form and prioritizes key skills and knowledge. That probably make Keidran culture and magic/science move slower than humans.

In any case defining intelligence is a deeep can of worms. People have been trying to do that since ancient greece. And we haven't advanced that much :?

*To be fair bipedestation is a whole order of magnitude harder than going on all fours, hence the effort required
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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#21 Post by Wobaku »

Hulk10 wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:36 am Learning faster than us to a point and then becoming level with us. What a nice phrase, I once read that Neanderthals had shorter childhoods than modern humans.
Funny that you should mention that, I saw an article not too long ago that argued we did not kill off the Neanderthals through violence, but our relationship with them was mostly peaceful, and we basically interbred them to extinction, as our genetics were generally dominant over theirs, and we had considerably more libido than they did.
I feel this is relevant to Keidran since their sex drives are the stuff of legend, and that one Mask made humans and keidran compatible near the start of the comic (yeah it might just have been trace/flora, but I don't see how one couple are going to stave off extinction)

So for the sake of humans on Mekkan let's hope keidran genetics aren't particularly dominant over theirs.

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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#22 Post by Hulk10 »

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:51 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:36 am Learning faster than us to a point and then becoming level with us. What a nice phrase, I once read that Neanderthals had shorter childhoods than modern humans.
Funny that you should mention that, I saw an article not too long ago that argued we did not kill off the Neanderthals through violence, but our relationship with them was mostly peaceful, and we basically interbred them to extinction, as our genetics were generally dominant over theirs, and we had considerably more libido than they did.
I feel this is relevant to Keidran since their sex drives are the stuff of legend, and that one Mask made humans and keidran compatible near the start of the comic (yeah it might just have been trace/flora, but I don't see how one couple are going to stave off extinction)

So for the sake of humans on Mekkan let's hope keidran genetics aren't particularly dominant over theirs.
I hope the Keidrans don't go extinct as well. I don't want to see any of the races go extinct.
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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#23 Post by Neptune »

Hulk10 wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:51 pm I hope the Keidrans don't go extinct as well. I don't want to see any of the races go extinct.
Probably not, unless Tom actually does something extremely unpredictable and makes everyone angry.
Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:51 pm very long snip
You can't say they have the dominant genome, since they most likely have two very different sets of chromosomes with no clear analogue. Certain genes will match up with genes that aren't analogous and this messes up the organism's genotype, especially the sex chromosomes. That's why most hybrids are sterile, except for maybe a tiny chance that the child will inherit the mother or father's genitalia and not a mix of the two instructions.

I'd imagine maybe a chimera, where part of the body uses the mother's type of cells and the rest uses the father's, like a calico.
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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#24 Post by Wobaku »

Neptune wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:48 pm
Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:51 pm very long snip
You can't say they have the dominant genome, since they most likely have two very different sets of chromosomes with no clear analogue. Certain genes will match up with genes that aren't analogous and this messes up the organism's genotype, especially the sex chromosomes. That's why most hybrids are sterile, except for maybe a tiny chance that the child will inherit the mother or father's genitalia and not a mix of the two instructions.

I'd imagine maybe a chimera, where part of the body uses the mother's type of cells and the rest uses the father's, like a calico.
This was probably true before the mask did his thing, but when we're dealing with literal deities I think it's safe to assume these things can be bent by their magic. And I hate to resort to ''lol magic'' but very different races interbreeding is just something that happens in fantasy settings, our laws of physics/biology just don't always apply.

Anyway, I imagine Trace and Flora's kid will look similar to Raine's halfway form, with human style, functioning genitals.

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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#25 Post by Neptune »

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:26 pm
Neptune wrote: You can't say they have the dominant genome, since they most likely have two very different sets of chromosomes with no clear analogue. Certain genes will match up with genes that aren't analogous and this messes up the organism's genotype, especially the sex chromosomes. That's why most hybrids are sterile, except for maybe a tiny chance that the child will inherit the mother or father's genitalia and not a mix of the two instructions.

I'd imagine maybe a chimera, where part of the body uses the mother's type of cells and the rest uses the father's, like a calico.
This was probably true before the mask did his thing, but when we're dealing with literal deities I think it's safe to assume these things can be bent by their magic. And I hate to resort to ''lol magic'' but very different races interbreeding is just something that happens in fantasy settings, our laws of physics/biology just don't always apply.

Anyway, I imagine Trace and Flora's kid will look similar to Raine's halfway form, with human style, functioning genitals.
Makes sense, but I doubt that Tom will ever talk about gonads. I'm also gonna put something out there, but there's a tiny chance that this hybrid will actually be the opposite and look like a Keidran.
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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#26 Post by Technic[Bot] »

Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:51 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:36 am Learning faster than us to a point and then becoming level with us. What a nice phrase, I once read that Neanderthals had shorter childhoods than modern humans.
Funny that you should mention that, I saw an article not too long ago that argued we did not kill off the Neanderthals through violence, but our relationship with them was mostly peaceful, and we basically interbred them to extinction, as our genetics were generally dominant over theirs, and we had considerably more libido than they did.
I feel this is relevant to Keidran since their sex drives are the stuff of legend, and that one Mask made humans and keidran compatible near the start of the comic (yeah it might just have been trace/flora, but I don't see how one couple are going to stave off extinction)

So for the sake of humans on Mekkan let's hope keidran genetics aren't particularly dominant over theirs.
It was a popular research published not that long ago I remember national geographic publishing something about it recently but could not find it. This is all i got, from 2016.

In any case to be fair every mention we have had about their libido is second hand account by people who did not though of them very highly.
Neptune wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:48 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:51 pm I hope the Keidrans don't go extinct as well. I don't want to see any of the races go extinct.
Probably not, unless Tom actually does something extremely unpredictable and makes everyone angry.
Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:51 pm very long snip
You can't say they have the dominant genome, since they most likely have two very different sets of chromosomes with no clear analogue. Certain genes will match up with genes that aren't analogous and this messes up the organism's genotype, especially the sex chromosomes. That's why most hybrids are sterile, except for maybe a tiny chance that the child will inherit the mother or father's genitalia and not a mix of the two instructions.

I'd imagine maybe a chimera, where part of the body uses the mother's type of cells and the rest uses the father's, like a calico.
It has been discussed that all of them were created by the mask. Because they had nothing better to do one night. Also apparently Hybrids were a thing in the ancient past but the Mask did something to prevent crossbreeding. Hybrids probably messed their scoring system. Now Neutral allowed interbreeding again in an effort to prevent complete Keidran extermination in the war.
So what I am trying to say is that they are probably not that incompatible.
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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#27 Post by aitaituo »

Technic[Bot] wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:19 pm
Wobaku wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:51 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:36 am Learning faster than us to a point and then becoming level with us. What a nice phrase, I once read that Neanderthals had shorter childhoods than modern humans.
Funny that you should mention that, I saw an article not too long ago that argued we did not kill off the Neanderthals through violence, but our relationship with them was mostly peaceful, and we basically interbred them to extinction, as our genetics were generally dominant over theirs, and we had considerably more libido than they did.
I feel this is relevant to Keidran since their sex drives are the stuff of legend, and that one Mask made humans and keidran compatible near the start of the comic (yeah it might just have been trace/flora, but I don't see how one couple are going to stave off extinction)

So for the sake of humans on Mekkan let's hope keidran genetics aren't particularly dominant over theirs.
It was a popular research published not that long ago I remember national geographic publishing something about it recently but could not find it. This is all i got, from 2016.

In any case to be fair every mention we have had about their libido is second hand account by people who did not though of them very highly.
I can't immediately find the article because Google becomes ever more terrible, but the most recent DNA research (last three months) strongly suggested that most human-neanderthal interbreeding ceased by 80,000 years ago, IIRC. There was a large-ish metastudy of sequenced neanderthal genomes.

AFAWK, humans, keidran, and basitins are nearly identical genetically. It doesn't take many genes did get drastically different phenotypes, especially when we're talking about engineered species. They're all pretty similar in terms of skeletal, muscular, and neurological structure. Not like you can really tell from pictures, but there isn't an indication of radically different proteins being used. Their hair, nails, eyes, etc all look basically the same. They're all mammals, too. At the very least, humans and keidran must have the same number of chromosomes.

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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#28 Post by Technic[Bot] »

aitaituo wrote: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:24 pm

I can't immediately find the article because Google becomes ever more terrible, but the most recent DNA research (last three months) strongly suggested that most human-neanderthal interbreeding ceased by 80,000 years ago, IIRC. There was a large-ish metastudy of sequenced neanderthal genomes.

AFAWK, humans, keidran, and basitins are nearly identical genetically. It doesn't take many genes did get drastically different phenotypes, especially when we're talking about engineered species. They're all pretty similar in terms of skeletal, muscular, and neurological structure. Not like you can really tell from pictures, but there isn't an indication of radically different proteins being used. Their hair, nails, eyes, etc all look basically the same. They're all mammals, too. At the very least, humans and keidran must have the same number of chromosomes.
For what we know their incompatibility is due to the Mask actively preventing them from breeding for whatever reason, not because there is a low level biological incompatibility. Hell Dragons are apparently able to mate with everything and end up with healthy fertile offspring.
In any case If anyone is interested, my theory for all this mess is as follows:
Spoiler!
The mask arrived at the world/planet were the comic takes place. No idea why, after a few hundreds of years they grew bored of whatever they were doing and decided to stage a game: something like a world level Stratego. But they needed the pieces, since they were powerful but not that powerful they could not simply "will" sentience into beings, they took a "sample" from the only "advanced" existing species on the world; The dragons, and combined them with records, maybe of other species on the galaxy (maybe?). One of them was pretty damn exited about the idea and minmaxed the hell of his species and made the basitins, another wanted kitty and puppy people and the Keidran were born. The last one was not so interested in this game and simply copied humans from the records.
With the players set they could finally start their game, but there was a problem, their races turned out to be more "lovers" than fighters and that screwed their scoring system, so they had to "ban" interbreeding and rearrange the geography of their races to finally start the game.
Again let me stress this is pure speculation and headcanon assembled for bits of information.
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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#29 Post by Carnaxus »

I contend that it’s not a matter of whether Keidran learn faster or better, or vice versa. I think instead it’s a combination of a few of the theories posted here. Keidran learn physical things, such as walking, on an instinctive level, especially because while it can be seen as harder to coordinate four legs than two, it’s not even remotely hard to balance on four legs unless you’re taller than you are wide, which none of the known Keidran subspecies are in their “feral” stages.

I also believe that there may be some kind of background magic* involved in their development, since they can “go feral” (like the tigress early on whom :trace: mistakes for :flora:) if something significantly traumatic happens. For humans, a traumatic experience can completely break our intelligent minds; we tend to wind up in a coma or awake but unresponsive. Keidran, however, revert to a feral animal state, in which they are no longer sentient beings. According to :flora:, a Keidran who has recently gone feral can be saved, if they are treated soon enough; however, at this point we have not seen any examples of this, which says to me that it’s both exceedingly rare for a Keidran to go feral and/or for one to recover from going feral, much like someone falling into a coma IRL.

The difference in reaction to traumatic events is evidence that Keidran, without the aforementioned background magic, would simply be humanoid feral animals. If they experience an event which has a great enough effect on their brain to disrupt the background magic, they lose their higher functions and become the animals they would be without the magic. The “treatment” is most likely directly irrelevant, but the proximity to other Keidran who haven’t had the magic disrupted may indirectly allow the background magic that’s affecting them reach out and “reconnect” with the Keidran who has gone feral.

Ionno. In the end, the explanation is up to Tom, o’course. He’ll probably explain it once the comic’s all finished, unless he finds a reason for it to be explained within the comic itself.

*What I mean by “background” magic is that it’s just...there, without any external force acting upon it, unless it gets disrupted by some otherwise irrelevant event or action. Templar towers tap into the background magical energy of the world, thus proving the existence of the right kind of background magic; however, they are not directly involved in the Keidran’s intelligence unless by accident instead of design. Even that doesn’t fit because the Keidran have been an intelligent race** since before the Templar were even a thing, much less their towers.

**By this I mean all types of Keidran: :natani:, :flora:, :laura:, :kathrin:, and any others we haven’t been introduced to yet; speaking of which, I still think that one of these days we’re going to find out that :squirrel: is in fact a baby Keidran.


Edit:

...This whole time I’ve been reading, saying, and typing “Kedrian.” Whoops. Fixed it in this post, since it was everywhere.

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Re: Keidran Lifespan

#30 Post by Hulk10 »

Carnaxus wrote: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:45 pm I contend that it’s not a matter of whether Keidran learn faster or better, or vice versa. I think instead it’s a combination of a few of the theories posted here. Keidran learn physical things, such as walking, on an instinctive level, especially because while it can be seen as harder to coordinate four legs than two, it’s not even remotely hard to balance on four legs unless you’re taller than you are wide, which none of the known Keidran subspecies are in their “feral” stages.

I also believe that there may be some kind of background magic* involved in their development, since they can “go feral” (like the tigress early on whom :trace: mistakes for :flora:) if something significantly traumatic happens. For humans, a traumatic experience can completely break our intelligent minds; we tend to wind up in a coma or awake but unresponsive. Keidran, however, revert to a feral animal state, in which they are no longer sentient beings. According to :flora:, a Keidran who has recently gone feral can be saved, if they are treated soon enough; however, at this point we have not seen any examples of this, which says to me that it’s both exceedingly rare for a Keidran to go feral and/or for one to recover from going feral, much like someone falling into a coma IRL.

The difference in reaction to traumatic events is evidence that Keidran, without the aforementioned background magic, would simply be humanoid feral animals. If they experience an event which has a great enough effect on their brain to disrupt the background magic, they lose their higher functions and become the animals they would be without the magic. The “treatment” is most likely directly irrelevant, but the proximity to other Keidran who haven’t had the magic disrupted may indirectly allow the background magic that’s affecting them reach out and “reconnect” with the Keidran who has gone feral.

Ionno. In the end, the explanation is up to Tom, o’course. He’ll probably explain it once the comic’s all finished, unless he finds a reason for it to be explained within the comic itself.

*What I mean by “background” magic is that it’s just...there, without any external force acting upon it, unless it gets disrupted by some otherwise irrelevant event or action. Templar towers tap into the background magical energy of the world, thus proving the existence of the right kind of background magic; however, they are not directly involved in the Keidran’s intelligence unless by accident instead of design. Even that doesn’t fit because the Keidran have been an intelligent race** since before the Templar were even a thing, much less their towers.

**By this I mean all types of Keidran: :natani:, :flora:, :laura:, :kathrin:, and any others we haven’t been introduced to yet; speaking of which, I still think that one of these days we’re going to find out that :squirrel: is in fact a baby Keidran.


Edit:

...This whole time I’ve been reading, saying, and typing “Kedrian.” Whoops. Fixed it in this post, since it was everywhere.
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